Religion

Wow, somehow I knew that someone would find a way to blast Catholics in this thread. But it took two pages to get there. You've got to do better Bob.

 

"So making a pilgrimage to gain benefits for a dead loved one or doing favors for one of the family gods -- dead ancestors - saints to get a favor back --- eh??"
"
Good example of magic leaking into a religion based on orthodoxy.
Ofcourse the SDA obsession with keeping the sabbath on saturday is a good example of orthopraxy leaking into a religion based on orthodoxy.
And the SDA obsession with the endtimes is a nother great example of magic leaking into a religion based on orthodoxy.

 

The idea that the Adventist leaked the Ten Commandments into religion or the Bible...

The idea that the Adventists "leaked" the Sabbath into the Ten commandments...

The idea that the Adventists "leaked" end time events into Daniel and Revelation...

It would take a genuine "mioque" to come up with those myths.

Let me guess - you are also an evolutionist - right?

I knew it!!

Well you are nothing if not consistently endorsing myth.

I applaud that determine quality in your posts.

I can't think of a more fitting thread for you to be stringing your myths together than this one.

Bravo! Points for Mioque!

(Though your "magic through orthodoxy" nonsense gets you some negative points)

 

Sigh..
As always you missed the point.

Keeping the Sabbath is part of orthodoxy.
Making a huge legalistic fuss about the specific on which it is kept, that's orthopraxy.

Believing in the coming of the End-Times is part of Orthodoxy.
Making 'authoritive' predictions about every last detail of the event is magical thinking.

 

PLEASE READ THESE ARTICLES ON "Can the dead speak to us?"

Unfortunately, this world is being set up for the false miracles that the Bible declares will happen in these last days. It is done by spiritualism.

The Bible very clearly teaches that the dead "KNOW NOT ANYTHING". So if they know not anything, who do you think you are communicating with when you supposedly "speak with the dead?"

Demons.

This false teaching that says the dead go straight to heaven or hell when they die came straight out of the Roman Catholic Church, and they got it from Pagan doctrine.


Jn:14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If when Jesus comes again He then receives us unto Himself WHY THEN would you think the dead are in heaven?

If the Bible teaches that the dead in Christ are raised from their graves to go up with Christ to heaven, WHY THEN would you think they are in heaven? Do you think they spent all that time up in heaven and then Jesus comes again and plants them back in the grave and raises them up and takes them up to heaven again?


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DO GOOD PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIE?

John 5:28,29
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth."
Acts 2:29,34
" David... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." " For David is not ascended into the heavens"
Job 17:13
"If I wait, the grave is mine house."

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

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HOW MUCH DOES ONE KNOW OR COMPREHEND AFTER DEATH?

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
" For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. "
Psalm 115:17
"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

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BUT CAN'T THE DEAD COMMUNICATE WITH THE LIVING, AND AREN'T THEY AWARE OF WHAT THE LIVING ARE DOING?

Job 14:12,21
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them."
Eccesiastes 9:6
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. "

Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)


JESUS CALLED THE UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD 'SLEEP' IN JOHN 11:11-14 How long will the dead sleep?

Job 14:12
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
II Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away."
Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind. Jesus calls death "sleep". It is a state of total unconsciousness.

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WHAT HAPPENS TO THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST?

Revelation 22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
I Thess. 4:16,17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the dead in Christ shall rise... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Corinthians 15:51-53
"We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ...and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ...For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to Heaven at death.

Now, let's reiterate a few things we have already learned, and add even more to what we know...

DEATH- THE INTERMEDIATE STATE
By what figure does the Bible represent death?

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope." I Thess. 4:13 (I Cor. 5:18,20; John 11:11-14)

NOTE: In sound sleep one is wholly lost to consciousness; time goes by unmeasured; and the function of the mental organs are suspended for the time being.

Where do the dead sleep?

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2

How long will they sleep there?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

What must take place before Job could expect to awake?

"If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come." Job 14:14

Where does he wait?

"If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness." Job 17:13

While in this condition, what does one know of those he has left behind?

"His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:21

What becomes of man's thoughts at death?

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalms 146:4

Do the dead know anything?

" For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Eccl. 9:5

What part, if any, do they take in earthly things?

" Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. " Eccl. 9:6

NOTE: If one continued in his consciousness after death, he would know of the promotion or dishonor of his sons. But Job says he does not know this, then if, as stated in the last text quoted, in death one loses all the attributes of his mind, as love, hatred, envy, etc., it is plain that his thoughts have perished, and that he can have nothing more to do with living objects. Again if man in death prolongs his powers of thought, he lives; and if he lives he must be somewhere. Where is he? Is he in Heaven, or in Hell? If in either place immediately after death, what is the necessity of a judgment in the end of the world to decide his case? Is there a possibility that some have at death gone to the wrong place, and must needs be sent to the other, after having been in blissor torment for ages perhaps?

What does the psalmist say about the dead's praising the Lord?

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms 115:17

How much does one know of God when dead?

" For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" Ps. 6:5

NOTE: There is not even a remembrance of God. As already seen, the Bible everywhere represents the dead as asleep. If they were in Heaven or in Hell, would it be fitting to represent them thus? Was Lazarus, whom Jesus loved, in Heaven when the Saviour said, "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth" ? (John 11:11) If so, calling him to life was really robbing him of the bliss of Heaven that rightly belonged to him.

But are not the righteous dead in Heaven?

"For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:34

If the dead cannot praise God, what must take place to enable them to do so?

"Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.." Isaiah 26:19

What was the only thing with which David would be satisfied?

"As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness." Ps 17:15

If there ever should be an awakening of the dead, what would be the result?

" For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18

When does the resurrection of the righteous take place?

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thess. 4:16,17 (I Cor. 15:23)

NOTE: If, as we have learned (Eccl. 9:5), the dead know not anything, then they will certainly have no knowledge of the lapse of time. A thousand years will be to them a day or a moment. To go down to the grave, and wait till the resurrection, even though it be a thousand years, will be to those who experience it like a sudden transition from this life to the next. It ought to be a consoling thought to one whose life has been filled with anxiety and grief for loved ones who persist in wickedness, to know that they will in death be spared torment. Again, it would mar the felicity of one's enjoyment in Heaven if he could look upon earth, and see his friends and relatives maltreated by strangers, or suffering from cold and hunger. It is wise that God has ordered it as expressed by the patriarch: "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

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Claudia Thompson
http://www.realigiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com

[ April 22, 2005, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Just as a side note....

In Matthew 24 when the disciples asked Jesus what would be the signs of the end of the world and of His coming, we read...

"If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

Tthis prophecy was spoken also for the last days. This sign is given as a sign of the second advent. False christs are showing signs and wonders to seduce His disciples. Do we not hear the cry, "Behold, He is in the desert"? Have not thousands gone forth into the desert, hoping to find Christ? And from thousands of gatherings where men profess to hold communion with departed spirits is not the call now heard, "Behold, He is in the secret chambers"?

The "secret chambers" mentioned by Jesus means like a seance room where today New Age believers will claim to "conjure up" Jesus or the Apostle Paul or whoever, and speak to them.

Prophecies of the Bible are always fulfilled. "Channeling of the spirit world" has become more and more popular today. Even more and more shows on TV or movies feature such things.

 

The dead will rest in the grave until he is called forth by the voice of Christ “at the last day.” (John 6: 39). “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice , And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation .” (John 5: 28, 29). The righteous dead will rise at the second coming of Christ and together with the living saints will meet the Lord in the air (see I Thess. 4: 15- 18), but the wicked dead will not rise until one thousand years after the resurrection of the righteous. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20: 5). How can someone “live again” except he has first experienced having died?

In the Book of Job, we read: “Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost [breatheth out; Strong’s Concordance], and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more [the heavens roll back at Christ’s second coming (Rev. 6: 14)], they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” (Job 14: 10- 12). And if that weren’t clear enough, Job continues: “If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come . Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee.” (Job 14: 14, 15). Obviously, Job believed that he would sleep in the grave until Jesus called him out on Resurrection Morning. (See also Job 17: 13- 16). After all, it was Jesus who spoke of death as a sleep when referring to Lazarus’s state. He never once implied that Lazarus had gone to heaven, but, on the contrary, said, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.” (John 11: 11). Then in John 11: 23, Jesus tells Martha, “Thy brother shall rise again,” and Martha responds, “I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus, in calling Lazarus from the tomb, said, “Lazarus, come forth (John 11: 43),” not “Lazarus, come up!” or “Lazarus, come down!” I believe that Jesus’ use of the word sleep is a very appropriate synonym when used in place of the word death (the first death), because the word implies a temporary state— a state from which every soul “shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [the second death (see Rev. 20: 12- 14)].” (Daniel 12: 2).


The great teacher, the apostle Paul, clearly understood that he, too, would sleep in the grave until the second coming of Christ: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure [death] is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day : and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His [Christ’s] appearing.” (II Tim. 4: 6- 8). Paul knew, as did Martha, that not until the resurrection of the last day, at the second coming of Christ, would he receive the reward of eternal life and be changed from mortality to immortality. Remember, it was Paul who told us in the Sacred Word that mortal man will not put on immortality until the last trumpet blast that calls forth the righteous dead at the coming of Jesus: “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [for some will be living when Christ comes], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [the Virgin Mary also], and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality [Please notice when this happens— not at death, but at the second coming of Christ].” (I Cor. 15: 51- 53). Earlier in the chapter, Paul stated: “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead . For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming .” (I Cor. 15: 20- 23).

 

Claudia;
Do you fancy yourself the new and improved Ellen G. White or what? This stuff is nothing new. EGW spouted this stuff long ago and I suspect this is a cut-n-paste job from her stuff.

She was proven false long ago.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Coming to the Advent Movement, Ellen White opens the chapter titled “William Miller” with the words:
I saw that God sent his angel to move upon the heart of a farmer who had not believed the Bible, and led him to search the prophecies. Angels of God repeatedly visited that chosen one, and guided his mind, and opened his understanding to prophecies which had ever been dark to God's people.—Page 128.


It appears that the founding of the Adventists was strangely similar to Joseh Smith and his Mormans.
For a complete story of this woman and her "revelations" go here;

http://www.whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp


In HIS service;
Jim

 

So God is thundering the words from Sinai and also gives the civil laws for the theocracy and Mioque shouts to God "orthopraxy! Orthopraxy!"

I have to admit -- it is a pretty funny picture.

Thanks Mioque - you made my day!

 

Am I the only one who thinks this is just some New Age troll?

What a weird post to put on the BB. If you want to talk about spirit mediums, necromancy and other such idiocy, then you're definitely in the wrong place.