protestants in denial

I think the Sabbath issue is something that confuses some people. Scripture tells us we need a day of rest. So take your day of rest. Scripture tells us we should not forsake corporate worship, so if the church is open on Sunday for worship, I will be there. The Scripture also tells us the day we set aside for that worship is a side issue. What matters is that we worship together and get our rest. We are making big issues about the wording and timing of things,and not the purpose and intent.

 

Yes, that "according to the Scriptures" in this very reference of yours means according to the Passover-symbolism - that Jesus would die, be buried, and the third day according to the Scriptures, be raised up again. Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures; He fulfilled prophecy; and He is our Passover Lamb, Lamb of God.
The negative of this is that Jesus would not have risen only on the second day of His having tasted death. And that implies the traditional view of Jesus being crucified and died and buried on Friday, and risen on Sunday, cannot be correct or true - not, "according to the Scriptures"!

 

Well, Gerhard, it's like anything one studies. When we want to find something out, we go back to the 'textbook'. Let's see what Jesus said in Matthew 12:40...

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The whale's belly was symbolic of the grave as Jesus pointed out. Jonah was in that belly for 3 days and 3 nights. The time involving the 3 days did not include any event that transpired before Jonah was swallowed. </font>[/QUOTE]It's like anything one studies negligently. I see nothing of what you here assert as correct. Where do you get the idea from "The whale's belly was symbolic of the grave"? Where do you see "as Jesus pointed out"? Jesus did NOT compare his experience of "being in the heart of the earth", with Jona's being "in the belly of the fish", but with Jona's tasting the fear and agony of being "in the heart of the earth" - a description (figurative) not of the grave (literal) but of death and the living through of dying and death eternal hell. Jesus in the grave did not then experience death like He in reality tasted it while living through being "in the heart of the earth".
This is Reformed faith. So we confess, who died, and descended to hell. Jesus' entering into, and passing through, and going out of death's agony, is what He said, He would endure - being "in the heart of the earth" - just like Jona for three days and three nights would have been "in the whale's belly". Two differnt people; two different experiences. Their exerience obviously impossible to have been the equal of one another.

 

That's my whole point: The Sabbath cannot stand on its own no matter, never, not for a moment. For the Sabbath Day to be Christian Faith, it stands in need of Jesus Christ and His institution of it by the redemption wrought in Him and by Him, just like the patriachs stood in need of the creation for a possible belief of the Sabbath; and the Hebrews depended on the Exodus for their unmistakable remembering of the Sabbath Day.
If not on Jesus' resurrection the Sabbath stood, it falls for Christians. The Scriptures, the Scriptures! They confirm, "For God thus concerning the Seventh Day spoke, and God the Seventh Day RESTED from all His works" - which ONLY happened in Jesus Christ.

 

Why does the Christian Church believe and keep Sunday? Because the Church believes the principle Jesus' resurrection justifies and is the unction to so believe and practice.
Only problem is, they base this sound principle on false data - assumed 'facts' that arn't 'facts' but the traditions of men. Because the scriptures do NOT say Jesus rose on the First Day of the week - it says He rose "in Sabbath's-time", and besides of long before so presented the Sabbath day so as to have been the Day of God's Rest and Finishing ... through Christ.

 

You cannot even count, what interpret the prophecies! "My stance is that Christ fulfilled what was foreshadowed in the feast days just as other areas of OT prophecy speak of Christ--- that's all. These days were Passover (late 14th)--- His death, Unleavened Bread (starting at sundown on the 15th)--- his burial, and Firstfruits---his resurrection starting at sundown Saturday. In this case, three days later, or on the 18th of Nissan."
14 Nisan to 18 Nisan = FIVE days?
"Late" 14 Nisan? No! both its part of "day AND night" as Jesus specified! It bagan at the beginning: "My hour has come", at the table; then followed Gethsemane and so forth as you are well acquainted with, until He died, and remained hanging on the cross through evening of 15 Nisan, when only Joseph appeared on the scene ... and buried Him next day of Nisan 15, afternoon before the weekly Sabbath Nisan 16, "WHEN SUDDENLY there was an great earthquake ...". Read your Bible, not the RCC versions of it!

 

No Pastor Jeff, it's the Sunday-issue that confuses people. In the Scriptures there's NO "Sabbath-issue" as far as its placing in time is concerned, only as far as it's placing in Christian Faith is concerned. The Sunday receives absolutely no SUCH attention in the Scriptures simply because it was for the NT believers just another day for their work. It had no church- or redemptive significance or pertinence or relevancy.
This sanctimonious distancing oneself as a Christian from the Sabbath-issue is just to avoid its very real pertinence in our day.
NEVER EVER does "the Scripture tell us the day we set aside for that worship is a side issue". Are you trying to mock at the "issue"?

 

I shall make big issue about the wording and timing of things, for it is the purpose and intent throughout Scripture, of no less than God and His Christ Himself. He shall plague us with these words, forever: "according to the Scriptures"! He shall terrorise us with these words: "The Seventh Day is the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God", "For GOD, thus concerning the Seventh Day did speak, and God on the Seventh Day rested from all His works" - which He HAD DONE in Christ - "in these last days ... through the SON"!

 

"Protestants in denial" - what an apt title! It's sub-heading could have read: Protestants in retreat! How they take their heels whenever confronted by the most practical and relevant aspect of Christian Church life - it's very day of being the Church of Jesus Christ! How heroically they take flight when it comes to be either Protestant or RC on the very "Sabbath-issue"!

 

"In the age to come, a new heavens and new earth is created after the sabbath millennium."
I beg your pardon, where have you read any of this in the Scriptures? The Sabbath is a day in the Scriptures, the seventh day of the week or of the creation order of God. In the New testament it's even clearer and more authentic: "In the Sabbath ... BEFORE the First Day of the week". I haven't invented it - it is God's own cycle of days in time - earthly time of days and of nights.
I would rather stay with my feet in the earth that swoon with my head in the maze of millennia.

 

So the Church is only the Church one day of the week when they meet in a building? I hate to say it; but boy, do you have things mixed up! This is what happens from focusing on a day like that. We lose focus on what the Church is! Just like the argument of Armstrong that "Christ's presence" is not in other days! (How limited of Christ! I guess Satan must be lord of 6/7ths (85%) of the week! )

 

I have friends in a country who are there to share their faith and will probably not attend a church unless they travel to another country on the outside.

 

No, I meant that's 3 days between the start of Nissan 15 and Nissan 18 (72 hours). I won't even debate the mathematically obvious or one's ability to count to three. If anyone else here has trouble seeing that, maybe we can arrange for tutoring in math.

 

So the Church is only the Church one day of the week when they meet in a building? I hate to say it; but boy, do you have things mixed up! This is what happens from focusing on a day like that. We lose focus on what the Church is! Just like the argument of Armstrong that "Christ's presence" is not in other days! (How limited of Christ! I guess Satan must be lord of 6/7ths (85%) of the week! ) </font>[/QUOTE]Distorting what I say won't create a way of escape for you.
I don't even know what Armstrong has to say on this point, neither do I care. I'll rather remind you of one Pliny who wrote on the Christians' behalf to the ruler of the world of his day, and he told him who the Christians were - by telling him what they used to DO. "They on a certain day MEET TOGETHER". Most conspicious!
That's it friend in Jesus - YOU are one of them because YOU, "meet together" and "meeting together", IS the Church of Jesus Christ.
What do I teach that is so radically different from THIS, sound, doctrine, that you go nuts? Nothing but the irritating reality of the constitution of God's People being that Body of Believers who - essentially - are those who meet together "on a certain day". The only question remaining, is THIS: Is it the Day "thereto appointed" by God, or is it any day of anyone's liking or disliking of the day appointed thereto by God?

 

I have friends in a country who are there to share their faith and will probably not attend a church unless they travel to another country on the outside. </font>[/QUOTE]It is unfortunate, because it is not God's design for His Children to be so dispersed and separated. It is God's ultimate will they will be free to Congregate as "the People of God" - and God left them an appointed day to that very purpose and end.
GB, you surely pray for your friends, do you not?
Privately, I am sure. But I'm even surer you pray for them while having Communion with your other and nearer and freeer friends, all gathered together in the Name of Jesus and on His Day the Lord's Day? Sure! God be with you!
You think God provided for all such circumstances? Then He must have provided by securing your this Day of Worship-Rest as an - no, as THE opportunity for so interceding through the Holy Spirit in prayer for your friends? "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" said John, on his own and far away - YET TOGETHER IN THE SPIRIT of faith and worship and prayer. Not even John the Apostle of Christ was the "Church" by himself.

 

No, I meant that's 3 days between the start of Nissan 15 and Nissan 18 (72 hours). I won't even debate the mathematically obvious or one's ability to count to three. If anyone else here has trouble seeing that, maybe we can arrange for tutoring in math. </font>[/QUOTE]You're quite right, maths isn't the point. It's what Jesus said or did not say. And Jesus never said or implied He would be "in the grave (Nisan 15 to Nisan 18) 72 hours". The point is what Jesus said and meant, and He never said He would be in the belly of the whale whether for 72 hours or for three days and three nights. No, He said, "as Jonah was in the belly of the fish", "so" would "the Son of Man be IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH for three days and three nights". Jonah had his own experience - alive, he didn't die - for three days and three nights; Jesus had His own experience - alive and even in death I think - for three days and three nights. It comprised of His whole LAST SUFFERING for sin - his being actually interred comprising but one part or aspect of this suffering of "being in the heart of the earth". Jesus' DEATH-SUFFERING begins the three days and three nights, just as His DEATH-CONQUERING brings the end to the three days and three nights. You will break down this temple and on the third day I shall have rebuilt it. The interment fell in between. On the day after Nisan 14 the remains was returned to the earth.

 

Then again, the Scriptures nowhere states or implies Jesus would rise on that one moment that is neither the past nor the next day. Armstrong exposes his foolish thinking best exactly on this point of the ending of the three days and three nights, where he initially overstates the time period to the second, then a bit further on in his pamphlet brings the resurrection a bit before sunset, and still further on to Sabbath's afternoon - in the end hitting the right spot.
The Scriptures say, LITERALLY and particularly meaning, epi - emphatically, phohs - light, ousehi - while / in being. The very thought is strengthened by the first phrase of the text, opse - fulness, sabbatohn - of Sabbath's-day. Simply: "AFTERNOON". So found by many and trustworthy, godly, scholars. It's not I who so invented.

 

Reminding Eric B,
There is this day in the New Testament called, "The Lord's Day". You are offended by this Day, when you say, "This is what happens from focusing on a day like that. We lose focus on what the Church is!"
If the Day belongs to the Lord - if He is Lord of and over this day - then to His People does it belong, and they upon it! And you are offended by it.

 

liafailrock,
.... in the end hitting the right spot - but red-faced on 72 hours.

 

The Church in Acts met every day of the week. People can get together anytime for prayer and fellowship, and they are still "the Church". Meeting one day out of the week is ONE thing the Church does; not ALL the Church does; and outside of that, it doesn't exist! It is not all about a building and a certain time of the week. It is the traditions of men that have defined the Church like that.
"Going nuts"? All I have done is clamly tell you the truth. You are the one reacting. "offended"? Why would I be; when your position clearly is notboiblical. "escape"? what is this, you think you have me on trial or something? (You're obviously the one "offended", then; it's like I "offended" you, and now you're "chasing" me or something!) "distorting what you say"? You are reaffirming it. No, the Church is not only the Church at a set meeting time. If so, that would mean we were outside of Christ and not saved the minute we set foot outside the building, until the next week. "By ONE SPIRIT are we baptized into one BODY. "Body of Christ" is synonymous with "the Church". We are not in and out of the Body every week.
As we see, you do lose focus of the truth; by turning the very concept of Christ's Church (a SPIRITUAL fellowship and Kingdom) into a mechanical routine of people meeting at a certain time in a certain place.

You make the same exact mistake as the Sunday keepers! That passage says not ONE THING about a day of the week. John was, however taken "in spirit" (vision) to the "Day of the Lord", which was the time of His judgment! It was in the 2nd century when that term was first assumed to be a day of the week, and that day was Sunday. So all you are doing is trying to beat the Sundaykeepers at their own game.

Armstrong offshoot Christian Biblical Church of God writer Ron Coulter points out that both interpretations of the term "3 days and 3 nights" are harmonized at one particular pair of times. If "day and nights" means only "parts of 3 days"; that can be from the end of the first day to the beginning of the 3rd day; which would be the traditional Friday noght to Sunday. But it could also be the beginning of the first day to the end of the 3rd Day. Which would be practically 72 hours, agreeing with the literal interpretation. If we postulate they didn't actually make it to the tomb before the annual Sabbath began; the annual Sabbath would be the first day. And of course, if He actually arose at the end of the weekly Sabbath (and was discovered after it ended), then the weekly sabbath would actually be the "3rd day". I had found that "today is the 3rd day since these things occurred" (Luke 24:21) could possibly be translated something to the effect that "the third day has passed". (I'd have to look it up again). That would make sense, because why would they necessarily expect Him to have been risen already at the beginning of the day? There would be the rest of the day for Him to rise to fulfill the prophecy.
I had accepted this, until I noticed that all of the resurrection accounts; we see a progression of "Crucifixion Day--Sabbath Day--Resurrection Day". It really doesn't seem there were two sabbaths in there with another day inbetween.
As for the argument about women and the spices before and after the sabbath; I harmonize all of the accounts
here