"Deciding For The Lord"

Why are you asking me, I'm the one "confused"??? </font>[/QUOTE]You certainly are.

 

Why are you asking me, I'm the one "confused"??? </font>[/QUOTE]You certainly are. </font>[/QUOTE]My dog is envious of me, I've been going in circles with ya'll longer than he can chase his tail.

 

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; -Titus 3:5

npetreley,

Please clarify what you mean when you state that we are not saved by regeneration.

 

Do you really need clarification? Can't you see by what I posted that salvation is by grace through faith? Using the Greek tense, it is "We are having been saved by grace through faith".

Of course regeneration is necessary for faith, and without first being regenerated, no one has faith or can be saved. You can view regeneration and faith as a series of sequential steps, or something that happens simultaneously. I think it is irrelevant whether it is sequential or simultaneous.

The Bible doesn't teach that God can simply stop at regeneration and call the person saved. That is what Him4Origen is suggesting.

 

Npet,
Above post very well written. It seems to me the process happens to those God chooses. Some of it we will not understand this side of heaven. All we know is that God finishes the work he started for those He called. This is not a scientific formula that can be analyzed step by step. You are right, for us, those saved through faith in Jesus Christ, whether it is one step or two makes no difference.

 

And you're suggesting that regeneration occur "BEFORE" Faith, so if you're "ALREADY" saved, who need faith to be saved??

Faith wouldn't not be need if you were "predestinated", neither if you were regenerated (saved) before having faith,

so why does the scripture speak so much about the necessity of faith in Jesus before God will save????

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

Okay, now let's take this little by little so you won't get lost, okay?

It takes regeneration to have faith. Whether it is before or simultaneous is irrelevant.

Now here's your problem. YOU are equating having been regenerated as having already been saved. This is YOUR error. To my knowledge, nobody here has ever suggested such a thing. I certainly have not. So if you want to use it as part of your argument, you're arguing with no one but yourself.

 

By the way, you have no idea how silly your argument sounds to any rational person. It's as if you're saying this:

"You need milk to make chocolate milk, right? So if you have milk, then you already have chocolate milk. What's the point of adding chocolate?"

 

So if you have milk, (Salvation) then you already have chocolate milk.(Regeneration) What's the point of adding chocolate?" (Faith)

EXACTLY.

You're argument BTW.

 

Can someone else please tell him he's not making any sense?

 

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

My "understanding" of "regeneration" was:

he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You don't get in this "condition" unless you "ARE SAVED".

Are you saying "God's calling" is the regeneration, followed by salvation if you accept the call???

 

Me4Him wrote:

God's calling is part of regeneration, but it is not the sum total of salvation. Regeneration is the new birth. God converts the sinful heart and makes it alive, this is regeneration. Once regenerated man is then able to excercise faith in Jesus Christ. Once faith in Christ has been excercised, the person is then irrevocably and forever saved.

ME, this is one of the misnomers about Reformed theology and Calvinism. Those who are in opposition to Calvinism believe that Calvinists teach faith is not necessary for salvation. They accuse of us of believing in a sovereign God who chooses those who will be saved without any response on their part. That is not true. Man MUST believe by faith. Of course, left to his own devices, man can't because he is unable to because of sin (1 Cor. 1:18; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3; Eph. 2:1). This is where regeneration (the new birth) comes into play. God begets the person from above (from God). Once the new birth takes place the person is able to believe God, in fact they yearn for Him and excercise faith in Him. They excercise this faith freely and without coercion. ME, this is why the criticism that "Calvinist's makes us all robots" does not hold water. We do choose God, but only after He has first chosen us. I believe this fact is lost in all the rhetoric. We both talk so loudly that we never really pay attention to what the other side is saying.

In summary, regeneration is the new birth. Salvation includes regeneration but requires man to excercise faith, although faith cannot be excercised until God changes the heart and makes it desirous and able to believe. I do not believe that a person can be regenerate for years before being saved. No. I believe the salvation process is nearly instantaneous in all its parts.

 

God's calling is part of regeneration, but it is not the sum total of salvation. Regeneration is the new birth. God converts the sinful heart and makes it alive, this is regeneration. Once regenerated man is then able to excercise faith in Jesus Christ. Once faith in Christ has been excercised, the person is then irrevocably and forever saved.

ME, this is one of the misnomers about Reformed theology and Calvinism. Those who are in opposition to Calvinism believe that Calvinists teach faith is not necessary for salvation. They accuse of us of believing in a sovereign God who chooses those who will be saved without any response on their part. That is not true. Man MUST believe by faith. Of course, left to his own devices, man can't because he is unable to because of sin (1 Cor. 1:18; 1 Cor. 2:14; 2 Cor. 4:3; Eph. 2:1). This is where regeneration (the new birth) comes into play. God begets the person from above (from God). Once the new birth takes place the person is able to believe God, in fact they yearn for Him and excercise faith in Him. They excercise this faith freely and without coercion. ME, this is why the criticism that "Calvinist's makes us all robots" does not hold water. We do choose God, but only after He has first chosen us. I believe this fact is lost in all the rhetoric. We both talk so loudly that we never really pay attention to what the other side is saying.

In summary, regeneration is the new birth. Salvation includes regeneration but requires man to excercise faith, although faith cannot be excercised until God changes the heart and makes it desirous and able to believe. I do not believe that a person can be regenerate for years before being saved. No. I believe the salvation process is nearly instantaneous in all its parts. </font>[/QUOTE]This is probably the best explaination of regeneration I have heard in quiet a while! Thank you for your post, doulous!! Have a good day!

Bro. David

 

I second that. And thanks for taking over. I was getting worn out.

 

If God is the one making the change in the heart, then why does he change some hearts so they will believe and not others, especially after saying he wasn't will for any to perish???

And why does the scriptures place the blame on people for not hearing/believing instead of God for not "enabling them"???

Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The above verse says the reason people don't believe is because they don't want to believe, Jesus even offering to heal (save) them if they would, have faith.

God calls in many ways, and it's not always the spirit making the call, in the OT/Trib, there wasn't a "Comforter" to change people hearts, do you have any idea of how the "calling", "Heart changing" will work then???

You can't restrict the "plan of salvation" to the church age/holy Ghost, it must be the same, OT, Church, Trib, Genesis-Revelation, How do people get saved when there is no "Comforter" present???

I agree, once you believe, you're saved, But
I disagree, once you're saved, you'll believe.

 

You just won't let this one go, will you? The context of that verse is clearly that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. And none of them will perish. But, of course, you already know that because I've told you this every time you cite this verse out of context.

 

You just won't let this one go, will you? The context of that verse is clearly that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. And none of them will perish. But, of course, you already know that because I've told you this every time you cite this verse out of context. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes I know, but I'm just trying to understand how you make it "jive" with one sin making you guilty of all and Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved because not so much as one sin is unpaid.

Something doesn't add up, want to borrow my "calculator"??

 

Definitely not. I think your calculator is what is damaged.

 

Definitely not. I think your calculator is what is damaged. </font>[/QUOTE]either that or somebody got mixed up writing the scriptures, he sure didn't do a very good job of explain himself, his doctirne has too many "WHOLES" in it.

 

If God does the regeneration so you have faith and that lead to Salvation it is same thing as pre-chosen as I can understand it. I see no difference at all and how can you have a new birth and not be saved. That just is not right. A new birth is to be raised from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope in Jesus Christ. If you have that then you are saved. I don't agree at all.

Blessings,

BBob