Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

PNut, I think you just shot yourself in the foot!



Peace,

Tam

 

The phrase is my own.
Yes, those three phases look good.

The SOF (statement of faith) for this board says:

Amen, Brother Prophecynut -- preach it!

 

Better to shoot your own foot than to hang yourself.

 

James,

I am not saying that the Bible does not say that salvation is a free gift. I am simply saying that I disagree with you understanding of what is meant.

Jesus' death was a free gift. There was no reason, other than love, for Jesus to do this. It was free and we did nothing to deserve it.

Without Jesus' free gift, everyone would be going to hell. Everyone sins, even the children of God. Yet God has ordained that His children will be found righteous, covered by Jesus' sacrifice.

The children of God and the children of Satan are different, their actions are different. We can judge whose we are by what we do. This is what Jesus meant when he said only those who do God's will can enter the kingdom of heaven.

You can continue to say that our actions are meaningless when it comes to salvation, because in a way it is true. Yet if you do so, you are possibly leading people down the road to destruction because in its plainest sense it is not true. Our actions reveal what we have in our heart. If we walk like a duck and talk like a duck while claiming to be sheep, chances are we are simply deceiving ourselves. As Paul wrote in Galatians 5:

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Christ GOES to heaven and THERE prepares A PLACE FOR US - then He comes to RECEIVE US up to HIMSELF and to take us to the HEAVENLY Kingdom - the Kingdom OF HEAVEN.

But there are those who seek to "Get it backwards"

To have Christ come so that WE CAN RECEIVE HIM to ourselves HERE so that WHERE WE ARE there HE WILL BE also...

I see you have spun the text around so that it
would have Christ come so that WE CAN RECEIVE HIM to ourselves HERE so that WHERE WE ARE there HE WILL BE also...

Pretty fascinating that twist around of yours - eh?

Why not just leave it as it is - where Christ is the one who takes US up and receives US up TO HIM - and to that place IN HIS FATHERs house - where he HAS GONE - to that PLACE He is preparing THERE for us?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, the verse does not say what you say it says.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus goes - where? to heaven, to be on the right hand of the Father, of course. Then He... comes again. So He is here again, where He was before, and He recieves us unto Him, that we may be... wherever He is. Where is He? He is here again.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Same thing here. We which are alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and we shall ever be... in the clouds? No, with the Lord. Wherever He goes, we goes.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The heavenly kingdom comes down to this planet when the Lord returns. The place He is preparing for us will come down here.

 

Kingdom of god is the kingdom of God. Not eternal salvation. Rightly divide these two and you will see the bible in a whole new light. Jesus didn't say that whosoever believes on Him would be crowned and get to sit on His throne. He said raised up on the last day.

 

You are correct, if I were to divide the Bible, I would see it in a whole new light. The problem is that the gospel is one.

 

Do you think that if God were to destroy you, that He could not bring you back up and restore you? Why should it be odd to think that those who died once and were resurrected could be killed again (second death?) and then raised up again (last day?)? What did the blood of Christ do for you if you have to be good to be saved?

 

If you have to be good to be saved?

You have things backwards. Only God's children are saved. It does no good for a child of Satan 'to be good'. Actions are simply a reflection of what is in one's heart.

You ask what did the blood of Christ do? It made it possible for the children of God to be found righteous. It covers the sins of those whose sins are not remembered. If Jesus had not died, all the attempts 'to be good' would be meaningless for everybody. The consequence of sin is death.

 

AMen, Brother BobRyan -- Preach it!

 

But if your still sinning then your sins are not covered? Sounds like works to me. Are you suggesting that because you are saved (and I am assuming you believe you are saved, I may be wrong) that you do not sin?

 

Where did you ever get a crazy idea like that? Of course a child of God's sin is covered. A child of God can't sin so much that his sin can't be covered. Besides, at the time of judgement, no body will be sinning anymore.

What's work, sinning or covering the sin?

Am I confident that I will be found righteous? I sure am, but I could be wrong. Even if I was absolutely positive that God had to find me righteous, I would still sin. We can't escape sin as long as we are in this flesh. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. But blessed is he whose sins are not remembered.

 

So how do you reconcile what you are telling me with this?

1John 3
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If by your own admission you sin, then you must not be born of God. How can you say that a believer will have works, but not meet the standard that you are called to meet? How do you get your sins to be not remembered, but expect someone else to work to prove they are saved?

 

I guess neither Paul nor John were born of God either.

Romans 7:14-19

For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.


1 John 1:8-10

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.


Taking these verses into consideration, especially Romans 7 which goes on to say:

But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


We now have a more complete understanding of the relationship between God's children and sin. There is a conflict of the two natures. If we are children of God, then our spirit does not desire to sin, but the flesh does. So there is a division that is invisible to us, but is plain as day to God. But this does not mean that we don't actually sin. We are a combination of both our flesh and spirit.

By recognizing the fact that we are only human and are not perfect.

 

My answer continued...

I do not expect someone else to work to prove they are saved. I am not the judge, God is. I am simply giving the same warning Jesus gave:

Matthew 7:15-28

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

Putting into practice requires work. Those who preach that we do not need to put Jesus' teachings into practice (work) are preaching a gospel that is in direct opposition to the gospel that Jesus brought.

 

So where is the line? At what point can you tell that someone is saved by their fruits?

 

Pnut said:Better to shoot your own foot than to hang yourself.

Tam asks: and what do you nean by that??

Peace,
Tam

 

There is no point at which we can tell we are saved by our works. That's the whole point. Just read 1 John 2:18-19

Little children, it is the last time. And just as you have heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have risen up, from which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, the would have continued with us. This says it all. If one is a child of God, then one will continue in God. There is no way to say "OK, I've continued long enough, now God has to find me righteous".

We can be confident in our salvation, but our perception of reality is not perfect. We could be wrong. This is what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 4:3-5

But to me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you, or by a man's day; but I do not judge my own self, for I know nothing by myself. Yet I have not been justified by this, but He who judges me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall each one have praise of God.

 

I realize that the conversation has gone on from here, but I couldn't pass this one up.

God creates, man destroys.
God gives life, man kills.
God created perfection, man sinned, causing imperfection.

How? God allows it.

Were not Adam and Eve His own? How about Satan (who served at God's throne) and the other angels who rebelled? Wasn't God "big enough" to keep them?

Which is more powerful, force or love? God certainly has the power to force His will on His creation. It shows power of a greater magnitude for Him to woo His creation through love rather than subdue it through force.


Never