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Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all. However, it is only salvic for those who accept it by faith.
[Ro 10:9] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." [12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Greetings Chris,
Notice the context is one holding fast to one's confession of Christ until death (2 Timothy 2:12, Romans 11:22 and many more...). The Bible is clear that confessing Christ is done not merely by words, but primarily by deeds. Likewise, denying Christ is done primarily by deeds; sins. Check out 1 Timothy 5:8, "Whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever..." This means denying Christ by one's actions.
Read Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5 and you will see that Scipture is very clear if you commit grievous sins, without repenting, you will not go to heaven. There is no exception for "born again" Christians.
The Greek word used here for "confess' is homologeitai, implies our continued confession of Christ throughout our lives. In Matthew 10:22,32-33 the Lord says, "You shall be hated by all men for My name's sake, but he who endures to the end shall be saved. (32) "Everyone who acknowledges homologesei Me before men, him will I acknowledge homologesei before My heavenly Father. But whoever denies Me before others, I will deny before My heavenly Father."
Notice the context is one holding fast to one's confession of Christ until death (2 Timothy 2:12, Romans 11:22 and many more...). The Bible is clear that confessing Christ is done not merely by words, but primarily by deeds. Likewise, denying Christ is done primarily by deeds; sins. Check out 1 Timothy 5:8, "Whoever does not provide for relatives and especially family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever..." This means denying Christ by one's actions.
Read Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5 and you will see that Scipture is very clear if you commit grievous sins, without repenting, you will not go to heaven. There is no exception for "born again" Christians.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Eternal security does not = the wide gate. It is indeed a very narrow gate and only a few will go through it. Only the elect will go through. Every one who chooses from his own free will are the ones who will follow the wide gate straight to Hell because they are totally depraved and there is nothing good enough in them to make them choose the narrow gate of salvation. It is only through the miracle of our soveriegn God drawing the elect that they will enter the narrow gate of salvation and stay there. Salvation is of God, not of man and not of works. He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it in you until the day of the Lord. Since you did not earn your salvation, you cannot give it back. Since God is the one who saved you, he is the one who holds you in his hands and will never let you go. The theology you are teaching is anti-Soveriegnty of God, and pro-free will arminianism, which is unBiblical.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Too many religions include baptists think, they already have "ticket" for heaven at once after they accepted Christ saved, no matter how often they sinned, they still go to heaven.
Security salvation doctrine gives bad influence upon people, because they do not walking holy life, they take advantage of God's grace and continue sinning all the way, while they think they still always saved under tge Grace. God forbids - Romans 6:1-2.
Many religions include baptists easily turn off out of the road, and go in their own ways, what they want and enjoy their life, they are on the way toward their destruction - everlasting fire.
Very few of true called who are remain faithful and endure all the way to the end, will make it into eternal life is narrow road.
Luke 13:24 tells us, many strive to enter it, most of them are not able enter it, because many of them easy give up and turn away in their own ways, on the way to everlasting fire.
Bible commands us, that we ought to be faithful all the way throughout our life till the very end of our life or Lord comes - Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; Heb. 3:6,14. OR.... if we quit, we will not have eternal life will be end up in everlasting fire.
Enter the narrow gate is not easy. We are now in spiritual warfare. Most of us easy fall away and give up in the middle of spiritualwarfare. Most of them back back to world again, obivous, most of them are on the way to their destruction. That what Christ says. He already knew most will go to destruction than enter heaven, because He is God, and an omniscience.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Security salvation doctrine gives bad influence upon people, because they do not walking holy life, they take advantage of God's grace and continue sinning all the way, while they think they still always saved under tge Grace. God forbids - Romans 6:1-2.
Many religions include baptists easily turn off out of the road, and go in their own ways, what they want and enjoy their life, they are on the way toward their destruction - everlasting fire.
Very few of true called who are remain faithful and endure all the way to the end, will make it into eternal life is narrow road.
Luke 13:24 tells us, many strive to enter it, most of them are not able enter it, because many of them easy give up and turn away in their own ways, on the way to everlasting fire.
Bible commands us, that we ought to be faithful all the way throughout our life till the very end of our life or Lord comes - Matt. 10:22; Matt. 24:13; Heb. 3:6,14. OR.... if we quit, we will not have eternal life will be end up in everlasting fire.
Enter the narrow gate is not easy. We are now in spiritual warfare. Most of us easy fall away and give up in the middle of spiritualwarfare. Most of them back back to world again, obivous, most of them are on the way to their destruction. That what Christ says. He already knew most will go to destruction than enter heaven, because He is God, and an omniscience.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
That is a perversion of the eternal security teaching of the Bible. Paul tells us that we don't go on sinning that grace may abound. He also says that we become a new creation in Christ. James says that works do not create salvation, nor earn it. Instead, salvation cretes good works in Christ. We belong to God, not to ourselves. We are no longer slaves to sin. Christ has bought us with his blood and freed us from sin and made us his own. Eternal Security does not teach that once you are saved that you can continue sinning and not lose salvation. It does teach that you can not lose something you never had, and also teahes that those who are in Christ will not make sin a lifestyle. We now have the Holy Spirit which convicts us of sin and brings true believers to repentance.
On the other hand, it is free will Arminianism that teaches one can choose salvation, give back that salvation, sin, choose salvation again, give back salvation again, sin, over and over again while a non-sovereign god (I will not use a capital G since that is not the god of the Bible) sits around happlessly and watches it happen despite his promises that nothing would snatch his children out of his hands. How many times can a person lose their salvation and get saved again, especially in light of scripture in the book of Hebrews which says that to do so is to Crucify Christ anew? No. Salvation is of God, not of man. It is God who saves and God who secures our salvation, and when God saves, he does so permanently and perfectly. He does not make mistakes. It is also the same God who secures that salvation and makes us a new creation.
Joseph Botwinick
On the other hand, it is free will Arminianism that teaches one can choose salvation, give back that salvation, sin, choose salvation again, give back salvation again, sin, over and over again while a non-sovereign god (I will not use a capital G since that is not the god of the Bible) sits around happlessly and watches it happen despite his promises that nothing would snatch his children out of his hands. How many times can a person lose their salvation and get saved again, especially in light of scripture in the book of Hebrews which says that to do so is to Crucify Christ anew? No. Salvation is of God, not of man. It is God who saves and God who secures our salvation, and when God saves, he does so permanently and perfectly. He does not make mistakes. It is also the same God who secures that salvation and makes us a new creation.
Joseph Botwinick
I believe this is a foolish argument. There is no instruction that we must believe that we have no control or that we must believe that we do have control. The instruction is simply to act a certain way. We have no idea about what drives us to do what we do. It is a great mystery.
The only thing that results when people take sides on this mystery is useless division. When one compares it to the other divisions in the church, it can be seen as a truly useless division.
Those who agree upon who God is and what is sin and how we should live should be a united body.
ccrobinson
Active Member
I don't speak Greek, and I have no desire to learn. My King James Bible is just fine for Scripture reading and interpretation, so I would prefer to not go into Greek for this discussion. I'm not trying to be contentious, but if we start going into Greek for this discussion, you're going to lose me very quickly, and I love this discussion too much.
Logan wrote:
"Read Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5 and you will see that Scipture is very clear if you commit grievous sins, without repenting, you will not go to heaven. There is no exception for "born again" Christians."
Grievous sins? What is a grievous sin? Who defined this term? Is there a sin that doesn't separate me from God?
To God, a sin is a sin is a sin. I have never read in the Bible about degrees of sinning, or how one sin is worse than another, or how one sin doesn't separate us from God, but another one does. All sin separates us from God, but the blood of Jesus washes away all of my sin, restoring the relationship that sin destroyed.
The whole idea of "grievous sins" is man's judgment on sin, not God's judgment on sin. God's judgment on sin is that it all separates us from him. Furthermore, his judgment is that the blood of Jesus washes away my sins, and that when I accept Him as my Savior, I am justified.
If somebody thinks that they have a license to sin because of Eternal Security, I'd like them also to know that my God has a big paddle and he's very willing to chastise them with it!
DeafPostTrib wrote:
"Security salvation doctrine gives bad influence upon people, because they do not walking holy life, they take advantage of God's grace and continue sinning all the way, while they think they still always saved under tge Grace. God forbids - Romans 6:1-2."
Let's bring this down to a personal level and move away from "they".
Don't you sin every day? Do you wake up everyday wondering whether you're saved or not? Do you go to sleep at night wondering whether you've lost your salvation today?
I hope not. It's a very bad thing to live in fear. Eternal Security means that I don't live in fear. Eternal Security means that 1 John 5:13 is still true. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
If I'm not secure in my salvation, then I can't know that I'm saved, and it means that 1 John 5:13 is a lie. Obviously, nothing that God says is a lie, so 1 John 5:13 must be true, and, therefore, Eternal Security must be true.
Secure and loving it!
Chris
Logan wrote:
"Read Galatians 5:19-21 and Ephesians 5:5 and you will see that Scipture is very clear if you commit grievous sins, without repenting, you will not go to heaven. There is no exception for "born again" Christians."
Grievous sins? What is a grievous sin? Who defined this term? Is there a sin that doesn't separate me from God?
To God, a sin is a sin is a sin. I have never read in the Bible about degrees of sinning, or how one sin is worse than another, or how one sin doesn't separate us from God, but another one does. All sin separates us from God, but the blood of Jesus washes away all of my sin, restoring the relationship that sin destroyed.
The whole idea of "grievous sins" is man's judgment on sin, not God's judgment on sin. God's judgment on sin is that it all separates us from him. Furthermore, his judgment is that the blood of Jesus washes away my sins, and that when I accept Him as my Savior, I am justified.
If somebody thinks that they have a license to sin because of Eternal Security, I'd like them also to know that my God has a big paddle and he's very willing to chastise them with it!
DeafPostTrib wrote:
"Security salvation doctrine gives bad influence upon people, because they do not walking holy life, they take advantage of God's grace and continue sinning all the way, while they think they still always saved under tge Grace. God forbids - Romans 6:1-2."
Let's bring this down to a personal level and move away from "they".
Don't you sin every day? Do you wake up everyday wondering whether you're saved or not? Do you go to sleep at night wondering whether you've lost your salvation today?
I hope not. It's a very bad thing to live in fear. Eternal Security means that I don't live in fear. Eternal Security means that 1 John 5:13 is still true. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
If I'm not secure in my salvation, then I can't know that I'm saved, and it means that 1 John 5:13 is a lie. Obviously, nothing that God says is a lie, so 1 John 5:13 must be true, and, therefore, Eternal Security must be true.
Secure and loving it!
Chris
Greetings Chris!
1 John 5:16, "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
I dont speak Greek myself. But you have to remember the passage in question was written in Greek. Therefore it is very relevant to any discussion. We dont "have to go into Greek" but it is relevant as it helps with the authors original meaning. Sometimes the translators have difficulty translating Greek words into English and a study of the Greek word can help with their intent, as is the case here.
As I do, so let's learn as much as we can and find the proper context of the disputed verses.I'm not trying to be contentious, but if we start going into Greek for this discussion, you're going to lose me very quickly, and I love this discussion too much.
Did you read the verses? God says those who commit the sins he list, will not inherit heaven.
That is not a biblical view. Why would God continue to list some sins (i.e. Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9, Ephesians 5:5) that will keep one from heaven, instead of just saying "sin?"
1 John 5:16, "If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
Yes, but what if you sin and dont repent? What if you dont forgive someone who sins against you after you accepted Jesus?
All too often people will point to others who claim to have been saved and then live a life like the devil.
The problem here is not whether or not the person will become lost, or even endure to the end; what is happening is the person probably is and was not saved in the first place.
Would Jesus have to die on the cross a second time if we were to become lost after being saved?
Chris, you make an EXCELLENT point. Why would a person want to worry whether or not they are saved? One day you are saved, the next day you are not because you told too many white lies?
When do you sin and break the camel's back? When does a saved person become lost again? Wouldn't you think the Bible would be very specific on the number and types of sins that would be required to become lost again?
I do not understand how the Pentecostals do it. They do not know if they are truly saved. I have a friend who is a Pentecostal and he worries all the time that he doesn't love his brother's enough as Christ commanded, because if he doesn't he goes to hell. He has no idea and worries and worries about this.
Isn't it nice to be a Christian and not have to worry about where we are going when we die?
Let me throw another wrench into their gears.
A person is saved; develops a brain disease such as Alzheimer's syndrom. Doesn't remember being saved...are they? Okay, if you say they are still saved, then what happens if they get depressed for a while and sin, what is the difference. Nobody can ever draw a clear line.
If someone can draw a line and tell me the exact amount of sin that will cause you to be lost and show me specific verses to that effect, we will discuss it.
Again, isn't it nice to go to sleep and not worry about dying in our sleep? GREAT FEELING. You folks who do not believe in eternal salvation need to check your salvation FIRST (I'm not saying you are not saved, I'm simply saying that is the first thing you need to review if you want peace.) Then if you know you are saved, start trusting in God to have the power to hold you regardless of your sins.
Remember, you are a sinner, ugly, disgraced and shameful in the face of God. Once Jesus washes you, you cannot cover his blood with sin.
He died ONCE to pay for your sins. You accept Him ONCE.
The Bible says that we HAVE eternal life. It doesn't say we "might have eternal life if we don't tell more than 15 lies". Eternal life starts from the minute of salvation. Your soul will live forever from that instant in time onward.
THAT is why Paul keeps telling us that Christ gives us PEACE. and PEACE is not worrying whether or not we will "make it".
The problem here is not whether or not the person will become lost, or even endure to the end; what is happening is the person probably is and was not saved in the first place.
Would Jesus have to die on the cross a second time if we were to become lost after being saved?
Chris, you make an EXCELLENT point. Why would a person want to worry whether or not they are saved? One day you are saved, the next day you are not because you told too many white lies?
When do you sin and break the camel's back? When does a saved person become lost again? Wouldn't you think the Bible would be very specific on the number and types of sins that would be required to become lost again?
I do not understand how the Pentecostals do it. They do not know if they are truly saved. I have a friend who is a Pentecostal and he worries all the time that he doesn't love his brother's enough as Christ commanded, because if he doesn't he goes to hell. He has no idea and worries and worries about this.
Isn't it nice to be a Christian and not have to worry about where we are going when we die?
Let me throw another wrench into their gears.
A person is saved; develops a brain disease such as Alzheimer's syndrom. Doesn't remember being saved...are they? Okay, if you say they are still saved, then what happens if they get depressed for a while and sin, what is the difference. Nobody can ever draw a clear line.
If someone can draw a line and tell me the exact amount of sin that will cause you to be lost and show me specific verses to that effect, we will discuss it.
Again, isn't it nice to go to sleep and not worry about dying in our sleep? GREAT FEELING. You folks who do not believe in eternal salvation need to check your salvation FIRST (I'm not saying you are not saved, I'm simply saying that is the first thing you need to review if you want peace.) Then if you know you are saved, start trusting in God to have the power to hold you regardless of your sins.
Remember, you are a sinner, ugly, disgraced and shameful in the face of God. Once Jesus washes you, you cannot cover his blood with sin.
He died ONCE to pay for your sins. You accept Him ONCE.
The Bible says that we HAVE eternal life. It doesn't say we "might have eternal life if we don't tell more than 15 lies". Eternal life starts from the minute of salvation. Your soul will live forever from that instant in time onward.
THAT is why Paul keeps telling us that Christ gives us PEACE. and PEACE is not worrying whether or not we will "make it".
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
Ever heard of giving examples? Paul knew what he was doing when he penned those words. he was reminding the Galatians, the Corinthians, and the Ephesians of where they had come from, not a checklist of what would strip them of their salvation. In many other places Paul just uses the word "sin" instead of naming them. Besides, the Bible would be the biggest book in the world if it listed each and every sin than a man could commit.
If you would read the whole of the passages listed you would see that this is exactly what Paul was talking about. Take the passage from 1 Corinthians:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1Co 6:9-11 ESV)"
Notice the last verse. "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Some of you were. That is the opportune word...were.
You cannot pick and choose to prop up doctrines. The context must be obeyed, whether it agrees with your pet doctrine or not. But pulling verses out of context to try and make it say what it doesn't just won't wash. At least, not with someone who actually knows what the scriptures say.
In Christ,
Trotter
Trotter
<img src =/6412.jpg>
You believe amiss, my friend.
As I said above to JCF, you will never convice me, and obviously I am not going to convince you. I am a SBC minister and am as tenacious as any other Baptist. My faith is firmly established on the foundation of the eternal quality of eternal life that Christ promised, not a 'hit-or-miss' saved today lost tomorrow one.
I have just never understood how one comes to the conclusion that eternal life is conditional. If you can enlighten me, please do so. but if all you want to do is insult, I have better things to do.
In Christ,
Trotter
As I said above to JCF, you will never convice me, and obviously I am not going to convince you. I am a SBC minister and am as tenacious as any other Baptist. My faith is firmly established on the foundation of the eternal quality of eternal life that Christ promised, not a 'hit-or-miss' saved today lost tomorrow one.
I have just never understood how one comes to the conclusion that eternal life is conditional. If you can enlighten me, please do so. but if all you want to do is insult, I have better things to do.
In Christ,
Trotter
Greetings Trotter,
Galatians 5:21, "...I warn you as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Again, why the warning? Paul is writing to the Christians in Galatia(Galatins 1). Not to some Pagan tribe somewhere. Paul's warnings in Ephesians, Galatians, and Corinthians makes absolutely no sense using your method of theology.
Peace...
The Corinthians yes,but your missing an important point of the verses. "Do not be deceived" Obviously someone, probably Simon Magmus and his Gnostic crew, were telling them they could commit sins and still go to heaven. Using your logic this would be a meaningless warning. They would just tell Paul, But were already saved, already washed by the blood.
Galatians 5:21, "...I warn you as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Again, why the warning? Paul is writing to the Christians in Galatia(Galatins 1). Not to some Pagan tribe somewhere. Paul's warnings in Ephesians, Galatians, and Corinthians makes absolutely no sense using your method of theology.
Chapter and verse where he gives a warning such as these and just says "any sin."
Again, Do not be deceived, there's that warning again. A stern warning not to engage in this type of conduct or it wouldnt matter how many "altar calls" one did years earlier, they would not inherit heaven. Pauls words, God's Word, not mine.
I could'nt agree more. Funny how you say this when the "doctrine" of "once saved always saved" was never taught in the Early Church either. In fact you would be hard pressed to find this being taught prior to John Calvin in the 16th century. You have to take the Lord's and Paul's warnings seriously. Dont write them off as not applying to you. Believe me brother,they apply to all of us.
Peace...
