Eternal Security...The Wide Gate.

Matthew 24:13 (unknown Bible)
But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Jcf: "How plain and how clear...."

Evidently not. Your post shows you received
this the opposite of plain and the opposite
of clear.

You probably read this:

But he who endures NOT to the end shall NOT be saved.

If so, you have ADDED to the word of God.

Revelation 22:18 (HSCB):

I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

 

It seems that is what we all are doing, but each to their own ends.

That cuts both ways.

I see by profiles that you, Eladar, and Logan are not Baptists. Not that Baptists are the only ones to uphold eternal security, but we are the main ones. So, you are only following what you have been taught.

I have the assurance of eternal security. Why? Because it is what I see in the scriptures.

You do not have the assurance of eternal security, in that you have to keep up your end of the "bargain" to be accepted. I do not see that in the scriptures.

Jesus paid the price on the cross at Calvary. Nothing we can do can add to that...including keeping up our end of the "bargain". But God does not make "bargains", He makes sons and daughters. His word tells us that we are given eternal life...not eternal life IF...

In Christ,
Trotter

 

So, what Jesus accomplished on the cross was not enough to keep anyone? It seems to me that that is what you are trying to convey.

So long as you are walking in the truth you are saved, but if you make a misstep you are not? How can that be? How can what you are able, or not able, to do change what God has wrought through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary?

What Jesus accomplished on the cross was to pay the penalty of our sins. If that was for only the ones who accept His offer, or for the sins of all I cannot say, but I agree that everyone will not be saved.

This tells me that what Jesus did on the cross needs to be accepted. It is the Holy Spirit that does the application, not me, not you.

Yes. When we walk in the truth, we are in fellowship with each other and with God. When we step outside of the truth, we are no longer in fellowship, but we are still sons or daughters. We do not lose our status of family, but we do lose our closeness with our father. If I have an arguement with my wife, we are not in fellowship, but we are still married, and thus it is with our relationship with our heavenly Father.

How the blood of Christ or the work of the cross is applied to my life is by the working of the Holy Spirit, through the belief and faith in Who Jesus is and what He has done for me. The Holy Spirit indwells each believer, sealing him until the day of redemption (when we die or are taken). Walking in the truth is a by-product of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and our earnest desire to live through Him.

Can a Christian willfully sin after they are saved? Yes, they can, and, yes, they do. Do they lose their salvation for this? No, they lose their close fellowship with God.

Can a Christian live in blatant sin? Hard to call. I would think that they are not really a Christian, but I could be wrong. I have been in that situation, and I know that I never left His hand.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Yes. A process that begins when we accept Jesus' offer and the Holy Spirit takes up residence.

Rather crude, but, yes, it is a shot deal. Either you are or you are not. If you are, you are. It is not up to you to try to keep yourself saved. To do so would be adding to what Jesus has done.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

So, Jesus Himself is not enough? The blood of Calvary needs help? God cannot save anyone?

War, yes. But not the war for our soul, as it was settled when we accept Christ. The war is between our new nature and the old flesh.

And God is totally helpless, pacing to and fro, wringing His hands, hoping we don't screw up?

I see it very clearly, but it is nothing like the landscape that you are trying to paint.

"If you only understood, then you would understand"

And, thanks for the slam. May God clear up my "spiritual blindness" before I 'harden my heart' too much...

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Do you not think that all of the trinity has a part in salvation?

Same here. When I lay down at night, I have no worries where I might wake up, no matter how bad I blew it that day.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

And just what makes you think jcf does worry?

News flash: Not everyone who disagrees with your understanding of "eternal security" is insecure in their salvation!

 

Never said otherwise, nor would I even try to imply it. The state of anyone's salvation is solely between them and the Lord!

But just how far can someone go before he becomes un-saved? I read all of this hoopla about walking out on God, and refusing the gift that He has already bestowed, but where is the line? How can someone know FOR SURE whether or not they are IN?

I'd hate to be laying on my deathbed worrying over whether or not I will hear, "Welcome home, my child," or, "You crossed the line, and are no longer Mine."

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Never said otherwise, nor would I even try to imply it. The state of anyone's salvation is solely between them and the Lord!

But just how far can someone go before he becomes un-saved? I read all of this hoopla about walking out on God, and refusing the gift that He has already bestowed, but where is the line? How can someone know FOR SURE whether or not they are IN?

I'd hate to be laying on my deathbed worrying over whether or not I will hear, "Welcome home, my child," or, "You crossed the line, and are no longer Mine."

In Christ,
Trotter </font>[/QUOTE]I dont believe one should have to worry about that or not. The bible tells us in Romans he will turn us over to a reprobate mind. The person who has backslidden to that point will not worry if he or she is going to make it. They simply will not care.

 

let me also add that someone is not going to mistakingly slip into heaven. Either you ran the race or you didn't. Either you faught a good fight or didn't. Either you kept the faith or you didn't.

 

I think it was Eladar a few posts back that said something like, "either you understand or you don't". So let me ask you this, when you go home to visit your parents, do you lie awake the night before wondering if they will welcome you home or tell you you've been disowned? Don't you know how they will respond to you based on your relationship with them?

On another message board the following question was asked: If you died and God asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would you say? I know that the author of the question was trying to get us to think about where our trust is really placed - in God's grace or our own works, but my response was different. The answer that popped into my head upon reading that question was, "Father, don't you know me?" I have a relationship with God. It's not about doing, but being. My human relationships, even though they are poor reflections at best, help me to understand my spiritual relationship with God.

 

And just what makes you think jcf does worry?

News flash: Not everyone who disagrees with your understanding of "eternal security" is insecure in their salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]So, what is the sin that breaks the camel's back and what makes you think that you didn't commit that sin today among all the thousands of sins we do?

This is really quite an amazing debate. Grace isn't good enough, it takes works to save us. Wasn't this what the Martin Luther reformation all about?

The Bible says that if we are saved we "have" eternal life. I have never read it say: "we have eternal life as long as we don't tell more than 52 white lies, or we don't take the Lord's name in vain more than three times." Has anybody ever seen this in the Bible?

So, if you honestly believe this loss of salvation bit, EXACTLY how many sins of each kind does it take to step over the line and how do YOU know you have not done that yet?

Why did Paul mention that if a man were to become lost, he could not be saved again because Jesus only died on the cross once?

This is why I get really tickled at the Church of Christ. You have to get Baptised to be saved, but you don't have to get Baptised to get saved "again".

It is AMAZING that people think that God cannot keep His elect in the palm of His hand.

Levels of sin has never had anything to do with whether or not God loves us--therefore level of sin would never have anything to do with whether we are saved enough. Jesus' blood covers all sin.

Read the entire New Testament in context and stop doing what Pentecostals do and pull out a verse here and a verse there and make a complete doctrine out of it.

 

No I don't because I know that my parents would never disown me no matter what I do to them. I am their son and even if I told them I hated them (which I would never do), I would NEVER be disowned. God would never disown His children.

If he would turn against you because you sinned, then He would not have bothered to die for you while you were STILL a sinner.

Bad example.

 

And just what makes you think jcf does worry?

News flash: Not everyone who disagrees with your understanding of "eternal security" is insecure in their salvation! </font>[/QUOTE]So, what is the sin that breaks the camel's back and what makes you think that you didn't commit that sin today among all the thousands of sins we do?

This is really quite an amazing debate. Grace isn't good enough, it takes works to save us. Wasn't this what the Martin Luther reformation all about?

The Bible says that if we are saved we "have" eternal life. I have never read it say: "we have eternal life as long as we don't tell more than 52 white lies, or we don't take the Lord's name in vain more than three times." Has anybody ever seen this in the Bible?

So, if you honestly believe this loss of salvation bit, EXACTLY how many sins of each kind does it take to step over the line and how do YOU know you have not done that yet?

Why did Paul mention that if a man were to become lost, he could not be saved again because Jesus only died on the cross once?

This is why I get really tickled at the Church of Christ. You have to get Baptised to be saved, but you don't have to get Baptised to get saved "again".

It is AMAZING that people think that God cannot keep His elect in the palm of His hand.

Levels of sin has never had anything to do with whether or not God loves us--therefore level of sin would never have anything to do with whether we are saved enough. Jesus' blood covers all sin.

Read the entire New Testament in context and stop doing what Pentecostals do and pull out a verse here and a verse there and make a complete doctrine out of it. </font>[/QUOTE]Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


I think you should ask these people that Hebrews is referring too about eternal security. You see, those people were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. As I said in another thread, the Holy Ghost is our seal. (Eph 1:13)

If it's impossible for them to renew themselves, wouldn't the same be true for some of us? Yes it would.