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A Letter From A JW

Jim Ward

New Member
(Note from JMW... if any of you can be of help in responding to this it would be greatly appreciated. THANKS. Jim)


Dear Ms. Rachel Pace and Friend,

I found some more information to whet your intellectual appetite, this time with more scriptures. In the first article below, it talks about John 1:1, and how in the original manuscript it us the Greek word "theos," which, as you'll discover, is called an "anarthrous noun," and means "god." "Anarthrous" means that it is not preceded by the definite article "the." Or as in Greek it did not originally say "ho theos." It is good to keep in mind 1 Corinthians 8:5 when studying John 1:1.

In the second and third texts which I've provided below, it talks about William Tyndale boldly trying to incorporate God's name into the Bible. In the paragraph with "Iehovah," it not only talks about Tyndale working on certain verses, but also talks about the shortened form of God's name as can be found in the cited scriptures in the second text.

The third text taken from the Divine Name brochure, is something i sent last time, and does include scriptural references when talking of Tyndale.

Enjoy...

6A Jesus-A Godlike One; Divine

Joh 1:1-"and the Word was a god (godlike; divine)"

Gr., ??? ???? ?? ? ????? (kai the·os´ en ho lo´gos)

1808 "and the word was a god" The New Testament, in An
Improved Version, Upon the
Basis of Archbishop Newcome's
New Translation: With a
Corrected Text, London.

1864 "and a god was the Word" The Emphatic Diaglott (J21,
interlinear reading), by
Benjamin Wilson, New York and
London.

1935 "and the Word was divine" The Bible-An American
Translation, by J. M. P.
Smith and E. J. Goodspeed,
Chicago.

1950 "and the Word was a god" New World Translation of the
Christian Greek Scriptures,
Brooklyn.

1975 "and a god (or, of a divine Das Evangelium nach
kind) was the Word" Johannes, by Siegfried
Schulz,Göttingen, Germany.

1978 "and godlike sort was Das Evangelium nach
the Logos" Johannes,by Johannes
Schneider,Berlin.

1979 "and a god was the Logos" Das Evangelium nach
Johannes,by Jürgen Becker,
Würzburg, Germany.

These translations use such words as "a god," "divine" or "godlike" because
the Greek word ???? (the·os´) is a singular predicate noun occurring before
the verb and is not preceded by the definite article. This is an anarthrous
the·os´. The God with whom the Word, or Logos, was originally is designated
here by the Greek expression ? ????, that is, the·os´ preceded by the
definite article ho. This is an articular the·os´. Careful translators
recognize that the articular construction of the noun points to an identity,
a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous predicate noun preceding the
verb points to a quality about someone. Therefore, John's statement that the
Word or Logos was "a god" or "divine" or "godlike" does not mean that he was
the God with whom he was. It merely expresses a certain quality about the
Word, or Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God
himself.

In the Greek text there are many cases of a singular anarthrous predicate
noun preceding the verb, such as in Mr 6:49; 11:32; Joh 4:19; 6:70; 8:44;
9:17; 10:1, 13, 33; 12:6. In these places translators insert the indefinite
article "a" before the predicate noun in order to bring out the quality or
characteristic of the subject. Since the indefinite article is inserted
before the predicate noun in such texts, with equal justification the
indefinite article "a" is inserted before the anarthrous ???? in the
predicate of John 1:1 to make it read "a god." The Sacred Scriptures confirm
the correctness of this rendering.

In his article "Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John
1:1," published in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92, Philadelphia,
1973, p. 85, Philip B. Harner said that such clauses as the one in Joh 1:1,
"with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb, are primarily qualitative
in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos. There is
no basis for regarding the predicate theos as definite." On p. 87 of his
article, Harner concluded: "In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force
of the predicate is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as
definite."

Following is a list of instances in the gospels of Mark and John where
various translators have rendered singular anarthrous predicate nouns
occurring before the verb with an indefinite article to denote the
indefinite and qualitative status of the subject nouns:

Scripture Text

New World Translation

King James Version

An American Translation

New International Version

Revised Standard Version

Today's English Version

Mark

6:49 an apparition a spirit a ghost a ghost a ghost a ghost

11:32 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a real prophet a
prophet

John

4:19 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet

6:70 a slanderer a devil an informer a devil a devil a devil

8:44 a manslayer a murderer a murderer a murderer a murderer a
murderer

8:44 a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar

9:17 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet

10:1 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief

10:13 a hired man an hireling a hired man a hired hand a hireling a
hired man

10:33 a man a man a mere man a mere man a man a man

12:6 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief

1A The Divine Name in the Hebrew Scriptures

Heb., ???? (YHWH)

"Jehovah" (Heb., ????, YHWH), God's personal name, first occurs in Ge 2:4.
The divine name is a verb, the causative form, the imperfect state, of the
Hebrew verb ??? (ha·wah´, "to become"). Therefore, the divine name means "He
Causes to Become." This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive
action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises, the One who
always brings his purposes to realization. See Ge 2:4 ftn, "Jehovah"; App
3C. Compare Ex 3:14 ftn.

The greatest indignity that modern translators render to the Divine Author
of the Holy Scriptures is the removal or the concealing of his peculiar
personal name. Actually his name occurs in the Hebrew text 6,828 times as
???? (YHWH or JHVH), generally referred to as the Tetragrammaton (literally
meaning "having four letters"). By using the name "Jehovah," we have held
closely to the original-language texts and have not followed the practice of
substituting titles such as "Lord," "the Lord," "Adonai" or "God" for the
divine name, the Tetragrammaton.

Today, apart from a few fragments of the early Greek Septuagint where the
sacred name is preserved in Hebrew, only the Hebrew text has retained this
most important name in its original form of four letters, ???? (YHWH), the
exact pronunciation of which has not been preserved. Current circulating
texts of the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Syriac Peshitta (Sy) and Latin Vulgate
(Vg) substitute the mere title "Lord" for God's unique name.-See App 1C.

The text located in the U.S.S.R., namely, the Codex Leningrad B 19A, used
for Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS), vowel-points the Tetragrammaton to
read Yehwah´, Yehwih´ and a number of times Yeho·wah´, as in Ge 3:14. The
edition of the Hebrew text by Ginsburg (Gins.) vowel-points YHWH to read
Yeho·wah´. While many translators favor the pronunciation "Yahweh," the New
World Translation continues to use the form "Jehovah" because of people's
familiarity with it for centuries. Moreover, it preserves, equally with
other forms, the four letters of the divine name, YHWH or JHVH.-See ad under
"Jehovah."

The practice of substituting titles for the divine name that developed among
the Jews was applied in later copies of the Greek Septuagint, the Latin
Vulgate, and many other translations, ancient and modern. Therefore, A
Greek-English Lexicon, by Liddell and Scott (LS), p. 1013, states: "?
??????,=Hebr. Yahweh, LXX Ge. 11.5, al." Also, the Greek Lexicon of the
Roman and Byzantine Periods, by E. A. Sophocles, Cambridge, U.S.A., and
Leipzig, 1914, p. 699, says under ?????? (Ky´ri·os): "Lord, the
representative of ????. Sept. passim [scattered throughout]." Moreover,
Dictionnaire de la Bible, by F. Vigouroux, Paris, 1926, col. 223, says that
"the Septuagint and the Vulgate contain ?????? and Dominus, 'Lord,' where
the original contains Jehovah." Regarding the divine name, A Compendious
Syriac Dictionary, edited by J. Payne Smith, Oxford, 1979 reprint, p. 298,
says that Mar·ya´ "in the [Syriac] Peshita Version of the O. T. represents
the Tetragrammaton."

Jehovah's name was first restored to the English Bible by William Tyndale.
In 1530 he published a translation of the first five books of the Bible into
English. He included Jehovah's name once, in Ex 6:3. In a note in this
edition Tyndale wrote: "Iehovah is God's name . . . Moreover, as oft as thou
seist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the printing) it
is in Hebrew Iehovah." From this the practice arose among translators to use
Jehovah's name in just a few places, but to write "LORD" or "GOD" in most
places where the Tetragrammaton occurs in Hebrew. This practice was adopted
by the translators of the King James Version in 1611, where Jehovah's name
occurs only four times, namely, in Ex 6:3; Ps 83:18; Isa 12:2; 26:4.

Further, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Vol. 1, Chicago (1980),
p. 13, says: "To avoid the risk of taking God's name (YHWH) in vain, devout
Jews began to substitute the word ´adona(y) for the proper name itself.
Although the Masoretes left the four original consonants in the text, they
added the vowels e (in place of a for other reasons) and a to remind the
reader to pronounce ´adona(y) regardless of the consonants. This feature
occurs more than six thousand times in the Hebrew Bible. Most translations
use all capital letters to make the title 'LORD.' Exceptions are the ASV
[American Standard Version] and New World Translation which use 'Jehovah,'
Amplified [Bible] which uses 'Lord,' and JB [The Jerusalem Bible] which uses
'Yahweh.' . . . In those places where ´adona(y) yhwh occurs the latter word
is pointed with the vowels from ´elohim, and the English renderings such as
'Lord GOD' arose (e.g. Amos 7:1)."

DIVINE NAME IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES (NW)

The very frequency of the appearance of the name attests its importance to
the Bible's author, whose name it is. The Tetragrammaton occurs 6,828 times
in the Hebrew text (BHK and BHS). This is confirmed by the Theologisches
Handwörterbuch zum Alten Testament, Vol. I, edited by E. Jenni and C.
Westermann, 3rd ed., Munich and Zurich, 1978, cols. 703, 704. The New World
Translation renders the Tetragrammaton as "Jehovah" in all occurrences
except Jg 19:18, where see ftn.

Based on the readings in LXX, we have restored the Tetragrammaton in three
places and rendered it as "Jehovah," namely, in De 30:16; 2Sa 15:20 and 2Ch
3:1, where the footnotes in BHK give ????.

According to BHK and BHS footnotes, in Isa 34:16 and Zec 6:8 the divine name
should be read instead of the first-person singular pronoun "my." We
restored the divine name in these two places and rendered it as "Jehovah."

For an explanation of the 141 additional restorations of the divine name,
see App 1B.

The name "Jehovah" occurs 6,973 times in the text of the Hebrew Scriptures
of the New World Translation, including three combination names (Ge 22:14;
Ex 17:15; Jg 6:24) and six occurrences in the superscriptions of the Psalms
(7; 18 [3 times]; 36; 102). These nine occurrences are included in the 6,828
times in BHK and BHS.

"Jehovah" in H.S. of NW

6,827 YHWH rendered "Jehovah"

146 Added Restorations

Total 6,973 "Jehovah" in Ge-Mal

THE SHORTER FORM OF THE DIVINE NAME

The shorter form of the divine name occurs 50 times in the Masoretic text as
Yah, rendered "Jah." Following is a list of its occurrences: Ex 15:2; 17:16;
Ps 68:4, 18; 77:11; 89:8; 94:7, 12; 102:18; 104:35; 105:45; 106:1, 48;
111:1; 112:1; 113:1, 9; 115:17, 18, 18; 116:19; 117:2; 118:5, 5, 14, 17, 18,
19; 122:4; 130:3; 135:1, 3, 4, 21; 146:1, 10; 147:1, 20; 148:1, 14; 149:1,
9; 150:1, 6, 6; Ca 8:6; Isa 12:2; 26:4; 38:11, 11.

For a consideration of the 237 occurrences of "Jehovah" in the New World
Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, see App 1D.

Divine Name Brochure

God's Name and Bible Translators

EARLY in the second century, after the last of the apostles had died, the
falling away from the Christian faith foretold by Jesus and his followers
began in earnest. Pagan philosophies and doctrines infiltrated the
congregation; sects and divisions arose, and the original purity of faith
was corrupted. And God's name ceased to be used.

As this apostate Christianity spread, the need arose to translate the Bible
from its original Hebrew and Greek into other languages. How did the
translators render God's name in their translations? Usually, they used the
equivalent of "Lord." A very influential version of that time was the Latin
Vulgate, a translation of the Bible by Jerome into everyday Latin. Jerome
rendered the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) by substituting Dominus, "Lord."

Eventually, new languages, such as French, English and Spanish, began to
emerge in Europe. However, the Catholic Church discouraged the translating
of the Bible into these new languages. Thus, while Jews, using the Bible in
the original Hebrew language, refused to pronounce God's name when they saw
it, most "Christians" heard the Bible read in Latin translations that did
not use the name.

In time, God's name came back into use. In 1278 it appeared in Latin in the
work Pugio fidei (Dagger of Faith), by Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk.
Raymundus Martini used the spelling Yohoua. Soon after, in 1303, Porchetus
de Salvaticis completed a work entitled Victoria Porcheti adversus impios
Hebraeos (Porchetus' Victory Against the Ungodly Hebrews). In this he, too,
mentioned God's name, spelling it variously Iohouah, Iohoua and Ihouah.
Then, in 1518, Petrus Galatinus published a work entitled De arcanis
catholicae veritatis (Concerning Secrets of the Universal Truth) in which he
spells God's name Iehoua.

The name first appeared in an English Bible in 1530, when William Tyndale
published a translation of the first five books of the Bible. In this he
included the name of God, usually spelled Iehouah, in several verses, and in
a note in this edition he wrote: "Iehovah is God's name . . . Moreover as
oft as thou seist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the
printing) it is in Hebrew Iehovah." From this the practice arose of using
Jehovah's name in just a few verses and writing "LORD" or "GOD" in most
other places where the Tetragrammaton occurs in the Hebrew text.

In 1611 what became the most widely used English translation, the Authorized
Version, was published. In this, the name appeared four times in the main
text. (Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; 26:4) "Jah," a poetic
abbreviation of the name, appeared in Psalm 68:4. And the name appeared in
full in place-names such as "Jehovah-jireh." (Genesis 22:14; Exodus 17:15;
Judges 6:24) However, following the example of Tyndale, the translators in
most instances substituted "LORD" or "GOD" for God's name. But if God's name
could appear in four verses, why could it not appear in all the other
thousands of verses that contain it in the original Hebrew?

Something similar was happening in the German language. In 1534 Martin
Luther published his complete translation of the Bible, which he based on
the original languages. For some reason he did not include the name of God
but used substitutes, such as HERR ("LORD"). However, he was aware of the
divine name, since in a sermon on Jeremiah 23:1-8, which he delivered in
1526, he said: "This name Jehovah, Lord, belongs exclusively to the true
God."

In 1543 Luther wrote with characteristic frankness: "That they [the Jews]
now allege the name Jehovah to be unpronounceable, they do not know what
they are talking about . . . If it can be written with pen and ink, why
should it not be spoken, which is much better than being written with pen
and ink? Why do they not also call it unwriteable, unreadable or
unthinkable? All things considered, there is something foul." Nevertheless,
Luther had not rectified matters in his translation of the Bible. In later
years, however, other German Bibles did contain the name in the text of
Exodus 6:3.

In succeeding centuries, Bible translators went in one of two directions.
Some avoided any use of God's name, while others used it extensively in the
Hebrew Scriptures, either in the form Jehovah or in the form Yahweh. Let us
consider two translations that avoided the name and see why, according to
their translators, this was done.

Why They Left It Out

When J. M. Powis Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed produced a modern translation
of the Bible in 1935, readers found that LORD and GOD had been used in most
places as a substitution for God's name. The reason was explained in a
preface: "In this translation we have followed the orthodox Jewish tradition
and substituted 'the Lord' for the name 'Yahweh' and the phrase 'the Lord
God' for the phrase 'the Lord Yahweh.' In all cases where 'Lord' or 'God'
represents an original 'Yahweh' small capitals are employed."

Then, in an unusual reversal of the tradition of the Jews who read YHWH but
pronounced it "Lord," the preface says: "Anyone, therefore, who desires to
retain the flavor of the original text has but to read 'Yahweh' wherever he
sees LORD or GOD"!

On reading this, the question immediately comes to mind: If reading "Yahweh"
instead of "LORD" retains the "flavor of the original text," why did the
translators not use "Yahweh" in their translation? Why did they, in their
own word, 'substitute' the word "LORD" for God's name and thus mask the
flavor of the original text?

The translators say that they were following orthodox Jewish tradition. Yet
is that wise for a Christian? Remember, it was the Pharisees, the preservers
of orthodox Jewish tradition, who rejected Jesus and were told by him: "You
have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)
Such substitution truly weakens the Word of God.

In 1952 the Revised Standard Version of the Hebrew Scriptures was published
in English, and this Bible, too, used substitutions for God's name. This was
noteworthy because the original American Standard Version, of which this was
a revision, used the name Jehovah all through the Hebrew Scriptures. Hence,
the omission of the name was an outstanding departure. Why was it done?

In the preface to the Revised Standard Version, we read: "For two reasons
the Committee has returned to the more familiar usage of the King James
Version [that is, omitting the name of God]: (1) the word 'Jehovah' does not
accurately represent any form of the Name ever used in Hebrew; and (2) the
use of any proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other
gods from whom he had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism
before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal
faith of the Christian Church."

Are these sound arguments? Well, as discussed earlier, the name Jesus does
not accurately represent the original form of the name of God's Son used by
his followers. Yet this did not persuade the Committee to avoid using that
name and to use instead a title such as "Mediator" or "Christ." True, these
titles are used, but in addition to the name Jesus, not instead of it.

As to the argument that there are no other gods from whom the true God had
to be differentiated, that is simply not true. There are millions of gods
worshiped by mankind. The apostle Paul noted: "There are many 'gods.'" (1
Corinthians 8:5; Philippians 3:19) Of course, there is only one true God, as
Paul goes on to say. Hence, one great advantage of using the name of the
true God is that it keeps him separate from all the false gods. Besides, if
using the name of God is "entirely inappropriate," why does it appear almost
7,000 times in the original Hebrew Scriptures?

The truth is, many translators have not felt that the name, with its modern
pronunciation, is out of place in the Bible. They have included it in their
versions, and the result has always been a translation that gives more honor
to the Bible's Author and hews more faithfully to the original text. Some
widely used versions that include the name are the Valera translation
(Spanish, published in 1602), the Almeida version (Portuguese, published in
1681), the original Elberfelder version (German, published in 1871), as well
as the American Standard Version (English, published in 1901). Some
translations, notably The Jerusalem Bible, also consistently use God's name
but with the spelling Yahweh.

Read now the comments of some translators who included the name in their
translations and compare their reasoning with that of those who omitted the
name.

Why Others Include the Name

Here is the comment of the translators of the American Standard Version of
1901: "[The translators] were brought to the unanimous conviction that a
Jewish superstition, which regarded the Divine Name as too sacred to be
uttered, ought no longer to dominate in the English or any other version of
the Old Testament . . . This Memorial Name, explained in Ex. iii. 14, 15,
and emphasized as such over and over in the original text of the Old
Testament, designates God as the personal God, as the covenant God, the God
of revelation, the Deliverer, the Friend of his people . . . This personal
name, with its wealth of sacred associations, is now restored to the place
in the sacred text to which it has an unquestionable claim."

Similarly, in the preface to the original German Elberfelder Bibel we read:
"Jehova. We have retained this name of the Covenant God of Israel because
the reader has been accustomed to it for years."

Steven T. Byington, translator of The Bible in Living English, explains why
he uses God's name: "The spelling and the pronunciation are not highly
important. What is highly important is to keep it clear that this is a
personal name. There are several texts that cannot be properly understood if
we translate this name by a common noun like 'Lord,' or, much worse, by a
substantivized adjective [for example, the Eternal]."

The case of another translation, by J. B. Rotherham, is interesting. He used
God's name in his translation but preferred the form Yahweh. However, in a
later work, Studies in the Psalms, published in 1911, he returned to the
form Jehovah. Why? He explains: "JEHOVAH.-The employment of this English
form of the Memorial name (Exo. 3:18) in the present version of the Psalter
does not arise from any misgiving as to the more correct pronunciation, as
being Yahwéh; but solely from practical evidence personally selected of the
desirability of keeping in touch with the public ear and eye in a matter of
this kind, in which the principal thing is the easy recognition of the
Divine name intended."

In Psalm 34:3 worshipers of Jehovah are exhorted: "O magnify Jehovah with
me, you people, and let us exalt his name together." How can readers of
Bible translations that omit God's name respond fully to that exhortation?
Christians are happy that at least some translators have had the courage to
include God's name in their renderings of the Hebrew Scriptures, and thus
preserve what Smith and Goodspeed call the "flavor of the original text."

However, most translations, even when they include God's name in the Hebrew
Scriptures, omit it from the Christian Greek Scriptures, the "New
Testament." What is the reason for this? Is there any justification for
including God's name in this last portion of the Bible?
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by Jim Ward:
(Note from JMW... if any of you can be of help in responding to this it would be greatly appreciated. THANKS. Jim)


Dear Ms. Rachel Pace and Friend,

I found some more information to whet your intellectual appetite, this time with more scriptures. In the first article below, it talks about John 1:1, and how in the original manuscript it us the Greek word "theos," which, as you'll discover, is called an "anarthrous noun," and means "god." "Anarthrous" means that it is not preceded by the definite article "the." Or as in Greek it did not originally say "ho theos." It is good to keep in mind 1 Corinthians 8:5 when studying John 1:1.

Sounds like the person is trying to baffle someone with their many words. It was just a case of copy and paste to you.

The JW’s like to quote A.T. Robertson (out of context that is). The following is what he wrote in Word Pictures in The New Testament about Jn. 1:1.

In the beginning (en archêi). Archê is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in #Ge 1:1
But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity.
There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or
it has come out of nothing.
Was (ên). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse #14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in #8:58
"before Abraham came (genesthai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence).
The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legô, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in #Pr 8:23
Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce. At any rate John's standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John's conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in
#Joh 1:1,14; Re 19:13; 1Jo 1:1"concerning the Word of life" (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of "the Word of God" in #Heb 4:12
But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul #2Co 8:9; Php 2:6 f.; Col 1:17 and in
#Heb 1:2 f. and in #Joh 17:5
This term suits John's purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos "became flesh" (sarx egeneto, verse) #14 and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God.
Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In #1Jo 2:1 we have a like use of pros: "We have a Paraclete with the Father" (paraklêton echomen pros ton patera). See prosôpon pros prosôpon (face to face, #1Co 13:12 a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnôston tês pros allêlous sunêtheias, "the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in #Mr 6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In #Joh 17:5
John has para soi the more common idiom.
And the Word was God (kai theos ên ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ên ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article. The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in #Joh 4:24
pneuma ho theos can only mean "God is spirit," not "spirit is God." So in#1Jo 4:16
ho theos agapê estin can only mean "God is love," not "love is God" as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar_, pp. 767f. So in #Joh 1:14
ho Logos sarx egeneto, "the Word became flesh," not "the flesh became Word." Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.
_____________________________________________________________________________

On page 1158 and 1159 of their interlinear dated 1969 they quoted Robertson from his book “A Grammar of the Greek New Testament”. The problem is that they take the quote right out of its context on pages 767 and 768 of Robertson’s book. They use a quote (out of context) from him to prove their point. But what he writes shows what John is actually writing about. Robertson proves the JW’s wrong.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
When the JWs attempt to make their case on the grounds of "we have better greek scholarship than all of Christianity" they need to explain how that has happened. What exactly did they do to acquire that scholarship and to surpase all of Christianity in John 1:1?

Secondly in John 1 the text ALSO says "No one has seen God at any time" -- notice that even the JW NWT does not insert the article "a" so that it says "No one has seen A God at time".

Clearly the NWT knows that this is now allowed.

All their ramblings notwithstanding - the fact that they know "Enough not to make that mistake" in John 1:18 belies their entire case over John 1:1.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
But "as if that were not enough".

Ask your JW friend to explain Colossians 1:15-19.

1. Ask them if "All the fullness of God" leaves "any part of God out".

They will sputter and choke on that for a little while - but will manage to talk themselves passed it.

2. Ask them if the text "by Him all things were created" means that Christ actually created the "Heavens and the earth and the springs of water".

They will admit that Christ did.

-- Ask them to read Rev 14:7 and tell you what the Bible says we are to DO to the one who "Made the Heavens and the Earth and the springs of water"

Checkmate.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
6:49 an apparition a spirit a ghost a ghost a ghost a ghost

11:32 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a real prophet a
prophet

John

4:19 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet

6:70 a slanderer a devil an informer a devil a devil a devil

8:44 a manslayer a murderer a murderer a murderer a murderer a
murderer

8:44 a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar a liar

9:17 a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet a prophet

10:1 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief

10:13 a hired man an hireling a hired man a hired hand a hireling a
hired man

10:33 a man a man a mere man a mere man a man a man

12:6 a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief a thief
They constantly cite these examples, but what is the difference between those things and theos. You can have many of those thigs, but there can only be one God. And "though there are those that are called gods...there is TO US, only ONE God..."(1 Cor.8:6). So scripture never recognized anything that can truly be called "a god" that is divine. That's the way to push all of those complex Greek grammatical debates aside. Context demands no article at all.
 

Russ Kelly

New Member
The JWs are really confused.
If (as they say) God created Jesus and Jesus created the universe, then Jesus is the Creator God. Their theology admits that there are TWO Gods: God the Father and God the Creator of teh Universe.

By the way, the JW Bible adds "almost" to the texts in Colossians that are so dificult for them.
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
It's too bad that the Jehovah's Witnesses put so much effort into a cult, that will surely damn not only their souls but all those who join there group and belief system.

Any one who does not believe that Jesus is God will walk within the boundless lengths of Hell for all eternity, no matter how obedient they are to their organization, or how religious they might appraise themselves as being.

I John 4:2 & 9. Verse nine says,

'In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because tht God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. [I John 4:9 & John 1:12 & John 3:16]

Drs. Wuest and Robertson, the Christian Greek scholars explain that Jesus is the God in John 1:1-3, and no merely a god, or some other lesser being.
 

Dan Todd

Active Member
Last I knew - the Watchtower printed about 1/2 million copies of the KJV each year. If you want to discuss Scripture with them - "make" them use a copy of the KJV - by telling them that it must be a good translation - as they print 1/2 million copies/year!
 

tamborine lady

Active Member
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That's right Todd. They do use the KJV on occasion and so if you insist that they just put all their books away, and just use KJV, then you'll have a level playing field.

Jim, another word of caution, don't try to use the NIV because it is really close in a lot of places to the NWT that they use.

Another tip is, that they won't pray with you UNLESS you pray"our Father God Jehovah". So if you ask them to pray, and they refuse, just say that you pray to Jehovah also, and bow your head and begin. They will bow their head and listen, because you are speaking to Jehovah! That way you can ask God to reveal --- or whatever you want to pray!!

God be with you.

Working for Him,

Tam
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
Eric B,

I read your Scriptural reference. That is a good one that I had forgotten. Another verse for JW's is the second to the last verse in the Book of Matthew.

As Christians we are to 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'

As you said in effect, this does not take a knowledge of the original language. A person either believes in this one God or he does not believe in Him.

Ray
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
I have even used their own interlinear to show how they are not consistent in their own made up rules of grammar and translation. Again a case of convenient theology and dishonesty.
 
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