Sole Fida / OSAS challange

Ray,

I wrote asked the question below about casting out demons and curing the sick to which you responded basically, why would satan allow one of his own to cast him out. I think you didn't see my post in which I got to my point on Judas so I will repeat it here. I think it causes some difficulty for the OSAS position.

In general it sounds like the answer from you is no. Here is the problem. When we are discussing falling from grace us Catholics will bring up that Judas was choosen by Jesus and so we will use him as an example of someone who was in grace but likely fell from grace. That he didn't have the grace of final perseverence which means that he "continued" in his salvation, though at some point if he had died he probably would have been saved and gone to heaven. Though in truth we will also say that we don't absolutely know his final outcome since God judges in the end and he may have repented of his betrayal as he hung from the rope, just before his heart took it's last beat. It's a long shot but may have happened. Though this is a side issue to the verse I want to bring up. You guys will cite the verse that says "they never were with us" to say that he was never a Christian and never was saved. Now if as Ray stated and you implied above, he was never saved, then what of the following verse.

Matthew 10:1-4
Jesus summoned HIS TWELVE disciples and gave THEM authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Simon the Zealot, and JUDAS ISCARIOT, the one who betrayed Him.

It is quite clear in these verses that Judas did have this power and it seems to me that in order to do these things belief/faith on some level is neccessary. I see nothing that excludes him. So (especially you ray, since you were most definite) how do you reconcile your belief that Judas was "never among us" and the fact that he had power over demons in Jesus name?

 

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

From what grace did he fall? He was never saved in the first place.
DHK

 

Brother Adam,

Can I be the one who proof reads the posts?

I was on a debate team all through High School, and I was the 'favorite' for proof reading.

I have a knack for grammer and spelling.

I also know how to read passive agressive sarcasm.

Especially in Bob.

Let me know. I'd love to help.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Can I be the one who proof reads the posts?

proofread is one word

I was on a debate team all through High School, and I was the 'favorite' for proof reading.

proofreading is one word

I have a knack for grammer and spelling.

"grammer" is correctly spelled grammar

I also know how to read passive agressive sarcasm.

"agressive" is correctly spelled aggressive

 

arrogance

\Ar"ro*gance\, n. [F., fr. L. arrogantia, fr. arrogans. See Arrogant.] The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; lordliness; haughtiness; self-assumption; presumption.

Oh look, Kelly has a dictionary too.

And I found Carson's name in it!

Gee, I knew he was famous in his own mind, but I had no idea!

 

qualified \kwa-le-fd\ adj 1 : fitted for a given purpose or job 2 : limited in some way

(C) 1995 Zane Publishing, Inc. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary (C) 1994 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

 

Hey, I see you found me in yours!

I would be definition #2 however.

 

My apologies for not replying to you yet, Adam. I have been on very little in the past few days and am even now just skimming the forums. I hope to write back to you tonight.

Thanks for your patience.

 

It seems as though I am not qualified in more than one way then!

I will definately watch as the debate progresses.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

DON:
No, the text clearly states that many of his DISCIPLES walked no more with him. A disciple is a learner and follower. Those of John 6 were faithfully following an learning. They were following based on what they had seen and heard. However, ultimately, as is the case with so many in the world, spiritual blessings are not as important as the physical things of life. These disciples wanted only the physical benefits associated with being his. They did not want to make the sacrifice to continue in his word. John 8:31,32.

 

Ray:
There are numerous examples of Christians leaving the faith. One, Hymaneus and Aleaxander are two such men. In I Tim. 1:19,20 the Bible says, Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

The word faith is a reference to the Christian system. Jude 3, Act 6:7; 13:8. These men had put away there faith and trust in Christ that they once had. As Paul said they were on board the ship of faith but became shipwrecked. It is impossible to shipwreck unless one is, first, on board the ship.
Moreover, the text indicates they went from being faithful ( on board the ship) to sailing with the devil. vs. 20.
Unless one concludes he can be saved by living for the devil, then he must conclude these two men were Christians who turned away from Christianity to serve the devil. In fact, verse 3 indicates Paul left Timothy in Ephesus to prevent men among the saints from teaching false doctrine. The Bible says in Rev. 20:10 that false teachers are condemned to hell. The Bible says in Rev. 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Note: These two men were blaspheming God. This is without a doubt false teaching. According to he Bible, where will they live in eternity?

Moreover, if these men were not Christians the wording of the text is wrong when it says they left a good conscience and abandoned ship. An alien sinner cannot have a good conscience and abandon the ship of faith since he is not on it in the first place.

Furthermore, Paul states they were delivered to Satan that they might learn not to blaspheme. One ( Paul) does not deliver someone ( the party of the first part, Hymaneus and Alexander)) to someone else ( the party of the second part, Satan) if they ( Hymaneus and Alexander) are presently with them. ( the party of the second part I.E. Satan)

These two men are examples of those who were Christians and left the faith in Christ. These two, the Bible says, will be lost if they do not repent of their sins. Luke 13:3, Rev. 20:10.

 

"From what grace did he fall? He was never saved in the first place."

All men have grace in there lives. They embrace it or fail to do so to varying degrees. It is those who recognize from whom the grace comes that are saved. Then the grace they recieve is internalized and multiplied.

You assume once saved always saved and then proceed with your explanation. Judas did not persevere, yet he followed Jesus. Jesus knew of his weakeness. He choose him in spite of it. Judas was a devil because he would not fully trust in Jesus and continue following. He turned away by his own free will.

Blessings.

 

Frank,

When I first entered Bible College I most vigorously believed and defended your position. Your problem in understanding this passage is that you have surface studied this enlightening passage. I also am not a Greek scholar, but if you are going to make flat out statements you need to know what you are affirming.

We readily admit that Hymenaeus and Alexander made shipwreck of their faith. Being a pastor it is frightening to see Christians who revert to the old ways, but they will come under God's strictest judgment. If you have children and/or I know you were one time a child under your father's care, he at times had to proverbially 'slap you aside of the head.' I too experience the chastisement of my earthly father, and more than one time a week. Once we are in the faith God has to at times discipline us as sons and daughter's of the living God. [Hebrews 12:5-14; I Corinthians 11:25-34] Verse 32 speaks of the Lord chastening the communicants because of their misbehavior at the table of the Eucharist.

Check out I Timothy 1:20 in the language of the Bible and you will better understand what happened to these sorry souls. God did not reassign them to Hell because of their waywardness but rather as our good Father most strongly disciplined them being the sons of the living God. Chastisement speaks most loudly of relationship to the Lord God. God turned these men over to the evil one so that 'the dragon' [Revelation 20:2] might hurt them severely {why?} so that they might learn not to blaspheme the Lord. When God takes His hand off the Christians life everything quickly falls apart in their personal and family life.

Another similar two men experienced this same kind of chastisement. They were teaching and personally believed the resurrection of the dead had already taken place and even were instrumental in overthrowing the faith of some Christians. Did God throw them out of the family of God because of their lack of orthodoxy? The Lord God gave us His answer as to their spiritual standing in His Presence. What does He say? This was God's response as penned by the Apostle Paul. 'Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth those who are His . . . . In {His} great house {in Heaven} there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor and some to dishonor.' [II Timothy 2:17-21] No one has to be a Rhodes scholar to understand that the Lord is saying that in Heaven not all of His people are going to be unalloyed, sterling, kinds of Christians, some will barely make it there saving that they are saved by pure grace and because of their once vibrant faith in Christ. [Ephesians 2:8;I Peter 1:4-5; I Corinthians 3:13-15]

God's richest blessings on you and yours.

 

Your assumption (falsely so), is that all men were in grace to begin so. What would make you think so? If that were true, there would be no need to be born again, i.e., born into God's family. We are born into God's family because we were never in God's family in the first place, that is, we were never in grace in the first place. A man can't fall from grace if has no grace to fall from. A man can't fall from the top of a house if he has never climbed to the top of the house in the first place. A man cannot go from saved to unsaved unless he was saved in the first place (and in this case we believe this impossible also). However, you have taken this to the ultimate extreme. Judas was never even saved in this first place. There was no grace for him to fall from. He was a child of the devil.
DHK

 

Brother Adam, I'm Just Curious, Why your fourth rule that the material need be double spaced and limited to 2 pages. Isn't that equal to one page single spaced? If the topic is going to be locked to all but the moderator and possibly the participants themselves, why is it necessary to double space at all?

The format rules should be strictly the actual form of presentation on the web page. The Moderator should post the actual agreed to statement that is to be debated, excluding all other possiblities. That is, the moderator "asks the question" that is to be debated. Then the participants are to respond in the following format: </font>

• Stated belief</font>
• Body of "evidence" for that belief</font>
• Conclusion</font>

I don't think any other formatting is necessary or desireable in this age of electronic editing.

Now then how many posts per participant are necessary for a final conclusion to be drawn on the Moderator's Question? And will there be more than one moderator's question? Should the debate have:
</font>

• One main opening salvo followed by one follow-on?</font>
• One main opening salvo with two follow-on?</font>
• One main opening salvo with three follow-on?</font>

In otherwords how long is the "debate on the Moderator's Question" going to be allowed to carry on?

If it is endless, or open ended then anyone who wants to post should be allowed to do so at some point. The locks should be removed at some point so that, following a moderator post that the debate between the participants has ended, others can post their opinions and or "feedback".

Perhaps a separate topic (debate) for each "Moderator's Question" then after the debate participants arguments end, the Topic is thrown open (unlocked) to all who desire to post on that topic. The portion that is the actual debate remains locked to editing so any "open posts" are naturally follow-on comments or questions from the audience.

 

Ray:

I not only understand greek. I understand the impications of the english language. God chastens to get us to repent. He also uses good for the same purpose. Romans 2:4. However, any man who fails to repent of his sins will be lost. Luke 13:3. This includes Hymaneus and Alexander.

Moreover, II Tim. 2;19 tells us what we must do to be known by God for sure, It is to depart from iniquity. Again, the Christian who sins is lost if he does not depart from iniquity.

Simon the sorcerer of Acts 8 is one who was a Christian sinned and was condemned ( vs.20-22) until he asked for forgiveness and had the prayer of the righteous on his behalf. Acts 8:17-24, James 5:16, Gal. 6:1.

The Bible teaches that ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN AND THERE IS NOT A SIN UNTO DEATH. I John 5:17. Simon understood it. He therefore asked, pray none of these things come upon me ( vs. 24, 20, 23). I say this kindly but to state a thing to be does not to prove it.

You have provided little scriptural evidence for once saved always saved. If ,indeed ,you actually study the new testament, you have like Hymaneus and Alexander missed the boat on this issue.


You do not understand the first principle of Biblical repentance. No sin will enter heaven. The Bible says so!

In Revelation 21:27, the Bible says, And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Therefore, if anyone sins and does not repent he is lost (i.e. Hymaneus, Alexander, Simon). Luke 13:3.

By the way, the Bible also says that whosoever loveth and maketh a lie will not enter heaven. Rev. 22:15.

[ July 17, 2003, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]