Sole Fida / OSAS challange

"When I first entered Bible College I most vigorously believed and defended your position. Your problem in understanding this passage is that you have surface studied this enlightening passage. I also am not a Greek scholar, but if you are going to make flat out statements you need to know what you are affirming."

I always like these arguements coming from one who believes in Sola Scripture. I don't mean to ridicule here but from a Catholic perspective after all these accusations about the Catholic Church keeping the Bible from people in the native tongue, when you guys have the Bible in English you say, "well you can't really understand it in English so you have to go back to the Greek and of course you need concordances and lexicons and Macarthur's study guy, along with Bible Almanacs and history books and a long sermon by a pastor every Sunday. And then after all of that I can tell that Frank has studied his Bible in the tradition he has recieved as a good bit and Ray has too. They are both articulate in their positions. Yet the contradict so we know they both can't be rigth. Of course neither is an option also. Just seems rather odd to me. That's all.

Blessings

 

Thes:
I have never attended a seminary. I study with the good mind God gave me. I do not post links to websites for the answer to Bible questions. I go directly to the source.

I, at times, use the Greek language for clarification of verb tense, and gender which does help one in understanding the meaning to words.

 

Frank,
Since I know you don't believe in OSAS, you're beginning to sound like a RC. And if the priest doesn't get there to administer extreme unction to wash away that last sin, you won't enter heaven

DHK

 

Exactly.

 

I'm convinced you'll not reach a conclusion in a formal debate either, especially when the debators are establishing the rules and the debate topic.

 

Came across an interesting verse the other day....

Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.


Notice the tense...the person is being begged to return, but the redemption is past tense. Not "return unto me or lose thy redemption",

Redemption is a one time act, sealed for eternity.

 

What about Ezek 18 (the entire chapter)?


In Christ,

Bob

 

IT A MIRACLE!
I am going to agree with Bob for once in a long while. It is one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible against OSAS. Oh, I know it is in the OT. But if you pair it up with Luke 12 around verse 40 where the master finds the servant doing well and he is pleased. But if the Master delays and THAT servant starts beating the slaves. Well, when the master comes he is treated like an UNBELIEVER. Seems like an application of Ez 18:24 and it's not in the OT unless of course your one of those dispensationalists who start the NT at Acts.

Blessings

 

That is true - this is one of those subject where we are likely to agree. (Which means I better go check my numbers again).

Try Matt 18 (last half of the entire chapter) for a good match with Ezek 18. It is a good way to remember it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If we can lose that which Christ died for then I'm done. I dont know about all of you perfected saints but I know that I would be in the smoking section. Praise God He did it all!

 

Some have the view that salvation is by faith in Jesus and then you are on your own to try to keep yourself saved by your good works and deeds. Stepping out of line means that God takes your head to the spiritual chopping block and you are again in an unsaved state, as far as grace goes in a Christian.

Ephesians 2:8-9 votes against you. You are saved by Christ alone, ' . . . through His grace alone, through the conduit of our faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any person should boast.'

God will see those finally saved who truly have believed in the beginning. Trying to keep saved by keeping the commandments and all the rules of the Bible, end up being human works. When we believe we keep ourselves saved, we are saying that yes, Jesus forgave me my sins, but now from here on out, I'll keep myself pure before the Lord. In this case, we only need enough atonement to cover our sins up until we are initially saved and then His atonement is a misnomer and worthless to us, because we are doing just fine, thanks anyway. Works righteousness does not please the Lord; trusting Christ to carry us through into eternity covered in His atonement does please the Lord.

 

Ray,

"Some have the view that salvation is by faith in Jesus and then you are on your own to try to keep yourself saved by your good works and deeds. Stepping out of line means that God takes your head to the spiritual chopping block and you are again in an unsaved state, as far as grace goes in a Christian. "

You aren't implying this is the Catholic view I hope. If you were you would be seriously distorting it. For we believe that God leads us through the desert of life with GRACE. He does not leave us to our own ability to do works but gives us the grace to live our lives doing good works. He feeds us through the Eucharist and his holy word. He leads us through the spirit. If we do sin, however it is of our own accord because we in some fashion or level reject his grace in our lives. But of course we have an advocate and there is forgiveness.

Blessings

 

I realize this is a delicate subject.

But remember - this is not a case of - some people writing the Words of Christ in Matt 18 and Ezek 18 while others write the text of Eph 2:8-10.

This is one book - written by One God.

We need to look at all of it - and I admit - it can get a little unnerving. But in the end - you will see the "same" consistency in letting Lucifer choose, letting Adam choose, letting Israel choose and letting all mankind choose EVEN after they have decided for God - after they children of God - they are still "choosing".

And the scenarios that you see in scripture - (for example in Matt 18) show "Forgiveness revoked" just as you see "security revoked" in the case of Adam and Eve in the garden.

This adds a serious meaning to the text of Gal 5 "you Have Fallen From grace". (In the ultimate sense).

But it does not mean that each time you sin after you come to Christ you lose salvation. In each case God gives of "forgiveness revoked" it is a determined act of rebellion that will not relent and finally results in the lose of security.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What is the reason Jesus, the Christ died? </font>

• Forgiveness of sins?</font>
• Atonement for sins?</font>
• Instill faith in believers?</font>
• Instill faith in the elect only?</font>
• Save the Elect?</font>

It seems to me that scriptures say that reason Jesus died upon the cross as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, was to ATONE for our sins, and those of the whole world. He did this through his death upon the cross. Now that is the reason he Died on the cross. We believe in Him, that is, we place our human faith in him because he did not stay dead. He arose from the grave, demonstrating to us that He has power over death. Thus he has the power to fulfill His promise to give us eternal life if we but believe in Him.

 

Never said ya did frank. But does that fact somehow make you more right in your contradictions of others? No, I don't think so.
YOu use your mind? Tell me, can the sum of what God is be calculated by our minds? Can our minds comprehend the vast wealth of wisdom and knowledge available to us? Does one have to be educated and know how to read to comprehend God and be saved? Is it the book that saves or Jesus (I am not making light of the Bible by the way)? Take a hard look at that question and John 5:39 I believe it is. Ah yes, "You search the scriptures because you think that you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf. But you do not want to come to me to have life."

Blessings

By the way, why is the Berean Story in Acts 17 the only one where someone searches the scriptures to come to salvatoin that I can think of? Cornelius, Lydia, the Eunuch, the Jailor, etc. etc. all just kind a took the preachers word for it without cracking a page. Sure the Eunuch had a piece of Isaiha but he didn't know what it meant.

 

Thes:

The only objective standard for truth is the word of God. John 17:17. Therefore, it is only the truth that I choose to defend. If contending for the truth of God's word, exposes that which is against the truth, that is a good thing. David said in Psalms 119:104, through thy precepts I get understanding, therefore hate every false way.
Yes, in the course of debate someone will be exposed as teaching falsely by the scriptures,and it is the objective static standard of truth that will expose them, the person or vessel who is the conduit for this is of no consequence to me.

Yes, knowledge is required to be saved. Romans 10:17, Hebrews 11:1,6, John 20:30,31, II Pet. 1:3, I John 5:12,13.
If one is incapable of learning, he would be safe in the eyes of God. Luke 18:16 says,But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Jesus is the word. John 1:1. He is eternal logos. We cannot be saved without the word. James 1:18 says, Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. The only way you would KNOW anything about Jesus is through the word. Men learn through the five senses the God gave him. Jesusu must be comprehended by seeing him, touching him, tasting him, hearing him, or smelling him.

The only available method for us to KNOW Jesus is through our sense of hearing the word of God. If you exclude reading from hearing, which by implication means understanding, then you may only know him by hearing and or seeing the word about him.

No, men do not know all that God knows. Eve made this mistake in the Garden of Eden.
However, men can know all that God has a revealed to him in his word, as it makes us complete unto all good works. Deut. 29:29, II Tim. 3:16,17. Eve made this mistake in the Garden of Eden.

As for the conversions you mentioned, each example was converted by the proclamation of the gospel of Christ. Romans 1:16. These all accepted the word that saves because of their faith in the Christ. Each knew he or she was a sinner. Each knew he needed salvation. Each obeyed the messsge that would give them their desire for salvation.

I respect the silence of the scriptures on the intellectual level of each of the converts as God did not choose to reveal them to us. However, based on their conversions, each knew right from wrong. Each knew he was accountable to God for his wrong. Each wanted to be saved of his iniquity.

I will let you make conjecture on their educational level, and what they did or did not know prior to their conversion. I will let the "secret things belong to God." Deut. 29:29.

I make no apologies for defending the truth. My desire is to proclaim it for the saving of the soul. It is the duty of man to either accept or reject it. Jesus said in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

Ray:
The passage you have posted for salvation by Grace alone and Jesus alone does not support your asssertion grammatically. Grace ( charis ) and Faith ( Pistis ) are in the text are of the feminine gender. The word This (touto) is neuter gender, and therefore, would refer to salvation.
Furthermore, The passage does not exclude works, but it does exclude works of merit. One who has personal faith in Christ is working. John 6:27-29 says,"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28  ¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. I fact, by the definiton of work, when one examamines evidence withthe good mind God gave him, by definiton he is working. Doing what God has asked of us does not merit salvation but is simply accepting what God did for us at Calvary which we cannot and could not do for ourselves. There is nothing to boast of in an obedient active faith Romans 16:26.

 

"The only objective standard for truth is the word of God."

I agree 100% with this statement. Now the problem is that noone has ever shown me that THE WORD OF GOD is only equal to SCRIPTURE. Read my words carefully. I have not said that scripture is not the word of God but does someone have the word of God who just has scripture? Obviouisly not if the Eunuch had to have Phillip explain the scriptures that he held in his hands. Do the Mormons have the word of God in using a set of scriptures to teach falsely that Jesus was a man who "grew up" to become a God? There misunderstanding of those verses renders the WORD OF GOD meaninless. Yet they have the scriptures. Therefore it is apparent that something is missing from there WORD OF GOD. It is evident from 2 Thes 2:15 that the WORD OF GOD is not just scripture. For Paul says "HOLD FAST to the TRADITIONSSSSSS you have recieived. Whether by WORD OF MOUTH or in WRITING (that's scripture) from us. When are you going to see that the WORD OF GOD = Sacred Oral Tradition passed on from generation to generation (2 Tim 2:2) through God's Church which is the "pillar and support of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

Blessings Frank