The Da Vinci Code: fact or fiction?

pray:
1) To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2) To make a fervent request or entreaty.

Where in the bible are we forbidden to make fervent requests or entreaties to the Saints in heaven? Just because you want to throw out half of the meanings of the word "pray" doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow suit.

"Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners..." Tell me how that's different from "Frank, I need help. Please pray for me."

The picayune things some people focus on!

 

Presumably Frank is present when you are asking him.

Can anyone tell me how Mary (who to the best of my knowledge is NOT omnipresent) is able to hear and answer many people at once. Eg. Twenty people in twenty different countries say the rosary at the same time, does Mary hear all these prayers? How? Scripture?

 

My dear friend, and fellow Christian, let us not confuse the concept between praying to and praying for. When people pray to Mary, and expect Mary to intercede on their behalf with the Lord Jesus, that is going against Scripture. That is what I was alluding to. </font>[/QUOTE]Have you never read a legal pleading? Thefore we PRAY that the court etc etc.

We aren't worshiping Mary we are asking for her intercessions.

It doesn't go against scripture....afterall Paul speaks of the cloud of witnesses in the Bible....how can their be witnesses if they are 'cut off' from those of us on earth?


LaRae

 

Just what Bible do you have? Please read what Paul had to say about the cloud of witnesses. Please read Revelation and the reference to the prayers of the saints.....just who do you think those saints are praying for? People in heaven don't need prayers.


LaRae

 

Is Satan God? If not, how is it that he tempts so many people at once?

Obviously, outside of this earthly realm of physical existence, different attributes can apply. Having one or more attributes does not make one God, especially if it is God sharing this ability with the saint.

 

My humble apologies to you Justified Saint, for I had no intention of hijacking your thread with the Catholic teaching of believers praying to Mary. "The DaVinci Code: fact or fiction" book reference is obviously wrong if it refers to Jesus as marrying Mary Magdalene, etc. It must have been written by a person with an overly rested mind and aimless imagination. You are right, this is a blasphemy, and true Christians do not embrace the book. How could they?!

In reference to our Catholic friends, replying to my posts above, I can only state once and for all, that we human beings cannot pray to saints (who are in heaven). When we pray, we pray to God direct. Since Mary or any other saints for that matter, who are in heaven, are most definitely not omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient, for those attributes belong only to God, therefore we do not pray to them. Again, we pray to God alone.

Example: When I am asked by a fellow believer, lets say, trying2understand, that I should pray for him because he has a bad cold, I am not going to pray to LaRae, but I go in prayer directly to God, in the name of Jesus (who are our common and only advocate before the Father). Why is this so? Because only Jesus died for us on the cross of Calvary. He purchased us through His precious blood, we are His. And when we pray, the Father sees the blood of His precious Son instead of our sins, and He hears our prayers and answers. It's that simple.

 

And you are still disregarding scripture....which I previously referred to.


LaRae

 

Not at all. However, there is no connection whatsoever in the Scriptures you referred to regarding praying to the Saints (who are in heaven). Hebrews 12:1, which you probably alluded to (but did not quote), refers to the Christian race that is set before us in this world. Paul (for I believe Paul wrote the book of Hebrews), lists the champions of faith in chapter 11, and begins chapter 12 with the word, "Therefore..." The word, therefore, refers to the Old Testament people of great faith (listed in the previous chapter). Their faith was a witness to them in their sojourning here on earth, and an example to us in running our race. Paul was bringing our attention to these "ancient believers who had so faithfully persevered and so gloriously triumphed, as witnesses of their strife in the Christian race." As I said, your reference to this passage had nothing to do with praying to or being observed by these saints in heaven, but merely giving us an example to run our race like they did.

But you lost me about Revelations, for I do not know what part of the book you are referring to in praying to the saints? Please be specific. Thanks!

 

Presumably Frank is present when you are asking him.

Can anyone tell me how Mary (who to the best of my knowledge is NOT omnipresent) is able to hear and answer many people at once. Eg. Twenty people in twenty different countries say the rosary at the same time, does Mary hear all these prayers? How? Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]Why do you assume time and space in heaven are as limited as time and space on earth? With God all things are possible.

I know the Saints can hear our prayer because the Church, which gave us the Scriptures, tells me so. From the CCC:

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,[Heb 12:1] especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."[Mt 25:21] Their intercession is their most exalted service to God's plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

 

I agree 100%. I hope ABC's ratings are extremely low -- and whatever viewership they get consists entirely of people smart enough to laugh at the entire thing.

Mark H.

 

If the above quote is from a Catholic doctrinal book, forgive me for saying so but in its exegesis of the Scripture is in error, and most importantly has nothing to do with praying to the saints.

 

Anybody who believes that Jesus would have married doesn't know the same Jesus Christ I do. I find this whole idea as beyond heresy. It is TOTALLY Satanicly inspired.

And as for talking with Mary, I find the entire idea as disrespectful to the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ. Heaven wouldn't be much of a heaven at all if the sins of the world were laid on the hearts of the dearly departed.

 

If the above quote is from a Catholic doctrinal book, forgive me for saying so but in its exegesis of the Scripture is in error, and most importantly has nothing to do with praying to the saints. </font>[/QUOTE]Firstly, you are forgiven for being in error about the alleged error of the exegesis. (The paragraph is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, BTW) Secondly, you can keep insisting that praying to the Saints is not the same as "ask[ing] them to intercede for us and for the whole world." Catholics do the latter. If by praying to you insist on only meaning worshiping then of course Catholics don't worship the Saints. But you're still trying to limit the meaning of the word "pray," and we still insist on the right to use it in both of its common meanings.

Bicker, bicker, bicker...
(Anybody know the movie this line comes from?)

 

You mean heaven wouldn't be much of a heaven at all if the dearly departed were allowed to continue to share in God's work of the Salvation of the World? What's good enough for God and His angels isn't good enough for those who love Him the most, and have served Him the most faithfully on earth? Think about what you're saying!

 

Something else to think on, this commentary is from a friend of mine....I think it's very profound.


LaRae

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Our friend XXXX has asserted many times the idea that those who are in heaven do not concern themselves with what is happening down here. Since XXXX has first postulated this, I have been thinking about it, in the exchanges people have shown scriptures that tend to indicate that they are in fact concerned and even watching us. XXXX has dismissed these passages as metaphorical (though he has not made any attempt to define what the metaphor describes). I have been really thinking about this for a while.


The Church is the mystical body of Christ.

The Church is made up of Believers.

Christ is the head of the Church.

Jesus said "If you love me you will follow my commandments"

Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor as he has loved us.

Those in heaven have been perfected.

Jesus, who is love incarnate, is concerned about our affairs.

We who are the Body of Christ are one body.

If Jesus loves us, those who are in heaven (who have been perfected) MUST love us as Jesus does.

Love is nothing if it is not concern for the well-being of another.

So, if the saints in heaven love us, they *must* be concerned about us.

If they don't love us, then they are are breaking Christs commandment, ergo they don't love Christ, which of course calls into question the very idea of Heavenly perfection.

Jesus said that we would know His followers by their love for one another...If those in heaven don't love us, then we know, by the words of Christ himself, that they are not His followers.

This seems to me to be inescapable...

 

LaRae, I see where you are going, and I appreciate your effort. But lets simplify things and let me ask you a profound question. Why would anybody address his/her prayer to a fellow creature rather than the Creator?

 

This is another case where Protestants think either/or, while Catholics think both/and.

 

Let me ask you this:

Why would anybody address his/her prayer to a fellow church member rather than the Creator?

You must understand we also pray directly to God, but as you ask your fellow church member for prayer, so do Catholics ask this of all the saints.


LaRae

 

I agree with you, partly. I am not see much of a response to this book, period, from either side. I am sure your feeling and perspective is one sided. You see it from the Catholic perspective and thus see little from the other side. Someone from the Protestant perspective would only hear response from their side and then see commercials on ABC with what looks like a Catholic priest endorsing this nonsense (or at least lending support to the possibility). So that Protestant thinks Catholics are prone to think this way. See how much depends on your perspective?

That said, I think neither side would endorse or entertain this possibility, at least not as a whole. Yes, there may be fringe groups, but we need to realize this does not represent the group.

As a side note, I am watching tonight on ABC not to be informed, but rather to see how much they distort the truth and inflate myths. I will probably get a laugh in between my yelling at the TV.

God Bless,
Neal

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they willl die, but the dead know nothing; they have no FURTHER reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long vanished.

Job 14:21

If his sons are honored, he doesn't know it; if they are brought low, he does not see it.