The Da Vinci Code: fact or fiction?

That is exactly what I am asking?! So why are Catholics pray to Mary and other saints? Please allow me to quote a number of Bible verses, which may shed some light on the matter we discussing - regardless of who we are (Catholics, Baptists, etc.), when it comes to prayer.

I Peter 3:12 states, "For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."

In Luke 11:1 we find the Disciples wanting to pray like Jesus. "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples."

Jesus gives His disciples a model prayer. Not a prayer which is to be repeated over and over again, but served as an example. For in Matthew 6:9-13 we read, "9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

Please note, that these were the precious words of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and nowhere do we find any reference in it to address our prayers to any departed saints in heaven, but to God the Father. I rest my case, before the Moderators of this forum close this thread for derailing the subject at hand.

P.S. A_Christian, good Bible references!

 

If the above quote is from a Catholic doctrinal book, forgive me for saying so but in its exegesis of the Scripture is in error, and most importantly has nothing to do with praying to the saints. </font>[/QUOTE]You are correct Timotheus - the above example is not valid exegesis of either text. It is "pure fiction" applied on top of a Bible verse without particular attention to anything the verse itself is trying to say.

The idea of "praying to the dead" or even of praying to those that Paul calls "The dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4 - is foreign to all of scripture.

You make another excellent point in that with all the examples of prayers to the dead "in Christ" that we have in the RCC today we have "not one" such example in the NT or OT. The entire notion of praying to the dead so that they in turn can ask God for a favor - is not found even once in scripture.

But to be "on par" with the practice of the RCC - it would need to be about 40% of scripture - certainly of Psalms.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is another case where Protestants think either/or, while Catholics think both/and. </font>[/QUOTE]If a non-Catholic prays directly to God 100% of the time and a Catholic does so 40 or 50% - while praying to the "dead in Christ" the rest - there is a "trade-off". It is not the charge that Catholics are not praying "at all" to God. It is simply a statement about ANY opportunity to pray - selecting "the Dead in Christ" instead of God Himself. Even if it was only 30 or 40% of your prayers - still - why make that lesser choice?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I think it's splitting hairs. For example, if a non-Catholic spends only an hour in prayer, but prays to God 100%, and a Catholic spends 2 hours in prayer, and prays 75% to God, etc etc. (This aside from the the issue of whether intercession is prayer, and similar agruements).

I think we need to be concerned about our own prayer, and not someone else's. Additionally, I think we need to not let our own prayer habits be unduly influenced by the two ents of others.

Prayer is like vegetables. Different kinds for different folks. You may like one kind, while another may not be your thing. That doesn't mean that you hate another kind, or that another kinds is bad, it just means that another kind is not your thing. But everyone needs veggies.

 

If you contrast the error of praying to the dead vs the error of claiming that Christ got married....

How do you judge "which one" is worse than the other? You have to admit that to a non-Catholic (at least most of those on this board) praying to the dead is going to be viewed as "an error" just as claiming "Christ got married" would be.

There is a devotion to "ritual prayers" among Catholics that does not exist for non-Catholics. This brings up the question of whether really praying to God for some specific praise, or request is to be "preferred" over 20 repititions of a ritual prayer to one of the dead in Christ - or even to God Himself.

A lot of variables in this subject.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Sorry Johnv, but the Bible is very explicit about prayers, and about to whom we should address our prayers. This is not a "Burger King" doctrine. You remember the slogan? "Have it Your Way."

 

This is another case where Protestants think either/or, while Catholics think both/and. </font>[/QUOTE]If a non-Catholic prays directly to God 100% of the time and a Catholic does so 40 or 50% - while praying to the "dead in Christ" the rest - there is a "trade-off". It is not the charge that Catholics are not praying "at all" to God. It is simply a statement about ANY opportunity to pray - selecting "the Dead in Christ" instead of God Himself. Even if it was only 30 or 40% of your prayers - still - why make that lesser choice?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Then never, ever ask anyone to pray for you again. And never, ever allow anybody to ask you to pray for them -- cut them off immediately so that they don't waste time that they could use praying to God.

And somebody get rid of those vials of prayers in Revelation, please! I mean, what the heck is that all about?

 

You continue to ignore the two meanings of the word "pray" even though they have been pointed out to you more than once.

 

MikeS, I believe you stole my thunder! For that is exactly what I wanted to tell you. I have pointed out to you and others on this thread that there is a BIG difference as TO WHOM do we address our prayers. We certainly do not address our prayers to dear departed saints but to the Creator of the world. That does not mean, what you seem to imply that we do not pray FOR others. But you seem to understand that by not wanting to pray TO others (as you put it), including departed saints, such as Mary, we do not want to pray FOR our fellow believers. This is far from the truth.

So, I would say that we need to establish a series of word definitions before we attempt to carry the discussion any further. For as we may discover, we could mean the same thing, but express it differently. Again, let me bottomline it for you. We, Baptists, and as far as I know all Evangelical Christians included, do not pray TO any saints, departed or living, but only TO God, the Father, in Jesus name. If you folks, of the Catholic persuasion, do it differently I'd like you to ask you to show me (your humble servant) from the Scriptures, why you do it that way? I would greatly appreciate it if instead of accusing me of ignoring your statement, you point me to the error of my ways. Thank you for your kind assistance in this matter.

P.S. And concerning the prayers of the saints stored in golden vials in heaven, found in Revelations 5:8; 8:3, 4, has no bearing on our discussion whatsoever. That is not ignoring the Bible reference on my part, simply eliminating it as non sequitur.

 

Getting back the the original topic, I just finished watching the program on the Da Vinci Code, and it was interesting, educating, and informative. It doesn't purport that Jesus was married. Rather, it asks the question about the relationship between Mary Magdelene and Jesus. It did not imply anything that would be sinful, or anything that would compromise Jesus' divinity. The concern over this program was much ado about nothing, methinks.

 

Timotheus,

Before we go any further (and we've gone much to far already! How do these things get started?!) would you explain how "pray to" can only mean "worship"? That seems to be the locus of the confusion here. I suspect that 500 or 1000 years ago none of this would be an issue in the English language. It's also probably not an issue in other languages.

Here are definitions of the word "prayer":

prayer

\Prayer\ (?; 277), n. [OE. preiere, OF. preiere, F. pri[`e]re, fr. L. precarius obtained by prayer, fr. precari to pray. See Pray, v. i.] 1. The act of praying, or of asking a favor; earnest request or entreaty; hence, a petition or memorial addressed to a court or a legislative body. ``Their meek preyere.'' --Chaucer

2. The act of addressing supplication to a divinity, especially to the true God; the offering of adoration, confession, supplication, and thanksgiving to the Supreme Being; as, public prayer; secret prayer.

Notice here that prayers may be directed to others than God. When directed to God they are a form of worship. When directed to others they are (only) "asking a favor; earnest request or entreaty." Catholics (along with other Christians) apply both meanings to prayer to God, but Catholics only apply the "entreaty" meaning to others.

So there it is. Seems that your beef is with the English dictionary, not the Catholic Church.

 

In Olde English (the language the KJV was written in), there was a common saying, which was, "I pray you", which means "I ask of you". It was an extremely common saying. So, yes, there are MOST DEFINITELY mustiple definitions of prayer.

When we say "prayer" (as in, to God), we generally refer to communicating to God. It does not necessarily refer to "asking" God for anything. The Bible implies that this is acceptible, in addition to prayers of asking. The Bible does not, however, forbid Christians from requesting those who have died, or those who are still living, to pray to the Lord for us.

 

I watched it as well. I agree it was interesting. I disagree with the other two. I was thinking more along the lines of entertaining and imaginative. I agree, there was no condemning verdicts by the show itself. However, I find it interesting there are some who put so much stock in conspiracy theories and things that have little or no evidence, and yet reject things that have overwhelming evidence. The thing I have against this whole thing is why would the apostles and others leave out mentioning his wife and child? To me, they would have loved that and strongly pointed it out. Also, there was no established institution to squash the truth (as some on the show would refer to it) as some tried to claim happened. Oh well, if anything, it showed me that human beings have very lively imaginations!

In Christ,
Neal

 

MikeS, I cannot make it any more clearer than I have already done so - and yet you seem to be somewhat vague about the subject at hand. So, here it is for the last time.

We, believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, do ask each other for prayer support. But this is not as you would say "praying to each other." And yes, I do understand the meaning of the word "pray," as I do use a KJV translation of the Bible daily. The real meaning of the old English word in our contemporary setting, in some cases, would be, to "ask," "petition," etc. So, I can ask a fellow believer to pray for me, on occasion, when I really need help (Galatians 6:2 comes to mind here), but again, this is not "praying to each other," as you would try to convince us repeatedly.

When we lift up to the throne of grace each other in prayer, we do not bring their prayer requests to another saint in heaven to pass it along to God, but we come to the throne of grace boldly, because we have access there to God the Father through Jesus Christ! Why on earth would we hinder our prayers and direct it to a saint, who departed years ago into eternity, and hope that he or she would pass it along to God? You have been given a direct Bible quote to refute this practice by A_Christian on page 3, and as of yet you have not given us any clear Bible references which would clearly show us that it is OK to pray to departed saints. So it seems to me, that in your prayer practice you are solely relying not on the Word of God but on a particular creed by the RCC.

In parting may I command you for your diligence, persistence, and most importantly for your kindness in keeping this discussion civil! May the Lord bless you in your daily walk with Him.

 

MikeS, please change the word "command" in the last paragraph to "commend." Sorry, but my time of editing expired.

 

The fact that non-RC's do not choose to pray to the dead and the fact that there are no examples of prayers "to the dead in christ" in the Bible - has never been an argument against going to the living and asking for their prayers for either group.

However EVEN the RCC will not "allow" you to "pray to the living" -- so your argument that tries to equivocate between asking the living to pray with and for us - and praying to the dead is denied EVEN by the RCC itself.

Rev - does not contain ANY prayers offerred to ANYONE but God. The prayers of the saints - in Revelation is never said to be the prayers of those saints that have died - praying for still living saints on earth. You simply "make that up".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I watched it as well. I agree it was interesting. I disagree with the other two. I was thinking more along the lines of entertaining and imaginative. I agree, there was no condemning verdicts by the show itself. However, I find it interesting there are some who put so much stock in conspiracy theories and things that have little or no evidence, and yet reject things that have overwhelming evidence. The thing I have against this whole thing is why would the apostles and others leave out mentioning his wife and child? To me, they would have loved that and strongly pointed it out. Also, there was no established institution to squash the truth (as some on the show would refer to it) as some tried to claim happened. Oh well, if anything, it showed me that human beings have very lively imaginations!

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Agreed. The people that put on that show - "started" with the belief that the Bible is not trustworthy in its "details". They "need" it to appear as a tampering with the text a revision of history, a dishonest untrustworthy document that can "not be believed".

It is the classic struggle of humanism vs Christianity - and to make their case they will go on the slightest shred of doubt no matter how shallow or baseless.

The "Gospel requires" faith in the integrity of the "details" of scripture from the creation of man to the fall of man to the birth of Christ to His miracle ministry and literal bodily resurrection. None of this is acceptable to humanism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Perhaps, Bob, because we can communicate with those on earth through natural means. Can I get a "duh?"

So, the saints in Heaven are offering...prayers...for themselves? Exactly what does a saint in Heaven have need of?