Nazarene compared to Baptist

My husband is a member of the Nazarene
church. One of the things that surprised me
was that the church he attends believes that
baptism may be done to anyone--infants and
(if the parents request it or agree to it) through
adults. The second thing that surprised me was
that they teach that immersion, spriinkling, or
pouring are all right. Although my husband is a
member there, he does not agree with any of
this but only in immersion for people who know
they are saved.

The third thing that surprised me, however, was
that they agree with Baptists re that they cannot
live sinless lives--they are far more Calvinist
than people say.

Does anyone else here know of any specifics
in which Nazarenes and Baptist agree and/or
disagree? My husband is very new there and
cannot answer this question.

[ August 03, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

The Nazarenes came out of the Methodist tradition and are similar in most beliefs. What sets them apart would be their teaching on sanctification (as elaborated by John Wesley). And they're definitely Wesleyan-Arminian, not Calvinist.

From their Web site:

The Church of the Nazarene is the largest denomination in the Wesleyan-Arminian theological tradition. The doctrine that distinguishes the Church of the Nazarene and other Wesleyan denominations from most other Christian denominations is that of entire sanctification. Nazarenes believe that God calls Christians to a life of holy living that is marked by an act of God, cleansing the heart from original sin and filling the individual with love for God and humankind. This experience is marked by entire consecration of the believer to do God's will and is followed by a life of seeking to serve God through service to others. Like salvation, entire sanctification is an act of God's grace, not of works. Our pursuant service to God is an act of love whereby we show our appreciation for the grace that has been extended to us through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

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The Nazarenes also are part of the "holiness" or Pentecostal movement but, from my experience, not charismatic. Very similar to what Methodists were perhaps 75 years ago.

http://www.nazarene.org/gensec/we_believe.html

[ August 02, 2002, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

Thank you, Rsr. I appreciate your reply.

But I am learning that different churches which
carry the same name believe differently. My
husband's pastor and the adult Sunday school
teacher, minimally, believe that believers do sin
but remain believers. Is that unusual for today's
Arminians? I thought it was, but I could be wrong.

Also, I see no difference between his church's
teaching on sanctification and the teaching in
the Baptist church I went to in Minnesota.

Any ideas on these?

[ August 03, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

I'm relatively certain about this, but if I'm wrong someone please correct me.

The last I knew, Nazrene's also belive that you can lose your salvation and be saved again and that this "process" can be repeated over and over and over again.

To me though this brings the blood of Jesus to no effect.

Multimom,

The gift followed MANY OFFENSES. What if one were walking under the law (I know I did as a newborn christian) being convicted by the law. But also it says the power of sin is in the law, therefore it EMPOWERS SIN... Now this is not advocating sin but the law was in place that sin itself might become utterly sinful. What if one is a "child" in that regard. They are adressed in scripture to know they are forgiven in fact Gods sole purpose in locking one up under it was to have mercy. He who is forgiven MUCH loves much therefore one might need to be forgiven much so one might have to do something wrong for a time until the love and forgiveness of God can penetrate ones heart.

Now one could easily misunderstand this and think I'm saying, "sin that grace might abound" but I'm not in the same breath I could say, "If you do sin grace will abound" we have an advocate.

I'm not about pretenses because the truth sets you free, but I sin. Do I want to? No ofcourse not but I think its really important that we be expressers of Gods forgiveness, showing mercy and not putting limitations on God with doctrinal statements that sometimes are so black and white that the individual gets lost with such concrete sayings leaving doubt in regards to the forgiveness of God toward sin. After almost 13 years in the lord I have a new heart that desires to do good and walk in love but I sin and do wrong sometimes, I honestly do. I'm not "saved" then "unsaved", "saved", unsaved". We are getting to know our Heavenly Father and the love that surpasses anything we understand as it pertains to knowledge which (too) passes away.

Maybe all we need is a better understanding of His love, I think with that experiencially we couldn't limit him with a single verse. To me theres a blessedness in sharing my fallings and risings with the Lord, knowing He's the one making me stand, brushing me off, convicting me in His great way without condemnation. Entering into such a blessed relationship of knowing His love. This is revealed to me not because I am strong, but because I'm weak, not because I always stand, but because I often fall. His forgiveness is known not because of my perfection but because of my sin, when I do sin. I couldn't possibly measure his longsuffering, His love, or how many times He would forgive us if He requires us to forgive a brother seventy times seven in a single day. If He desires mercy not sacrifice that speaks volumes to me of who He is, experiencing His mercy in my own life is life changing, wish everyone was aware of it.

In Him Kim

"believers do sin but remain believers."

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Yes, the Nazarenes are Arminians (at least in theory), as expounded by John Wesley (in particular) and thus do not believe in eternal security or perseverence or preservation of the saints.

On sanctification: The church you attended may well have had that view; but I think most Baptists have a different understanding; they believe that sanctification is a continuing process while Nazarenes believe it is an instantaneous event.

From the Nazarene statement of faith:

13. We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.
It is wrought by the baptism with the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.
Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

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Compare that to the 1833 New Hampshire Confession:

*

Of Sanctification We believe that Sanctification is the process by which, according to the will of God, we are made partakers of his holiness (54); that it is a progressive work (55); that it is begun in regeneration (56); and that it is carried on in the hearts of believers by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, the Sealer and Comforter, in the continual use of the appointed means--especially the Word of God, self-examination, self-denial, watchfulness, and prayer (57).

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or the 1689 Baptist Confession:

2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man, yet imperfect in this life; there abideth still some remnants of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.
( 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Romans 7:18, 23; Galatians 5:17; 1 Peter 2:11 )

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Again, these are statements of faith; if they're like Baptists, I'm sure there is some variety of belief from church to church.

[ August 03, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

Ah! I see what you are saying. Perhaps I cannot
say what that church in Minnesota taught.

I have a deep appreciation for my husband's
church and his pastor. When I have had the
chance, I have asked many questions, and have
been surprised at how much like Baptist they
really are. They are good people.

When it comes to the doctrine of salvation, I'm pretty much Baptist in my belief.

I know full well what Paul meant when he said, "Am I to continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

Multimom,

Again, I adressed that. The misunderstanding Paul had were with others who said, "Sin that grace might abound" thats not what I'm saying either, BUT IF YOU DO SIN Gods grace WILL abound. Pauls honest struggle is recorded He said that if He did what he did NOT WANT TO DO it was no longer him doing it but sin. Paul agreed the law was good but he couldn't perform it, now Paul does not say he was not saved, or that he delighted in wrong doing or sin but simply that he couldn't seem to help himself and he did not blame himself either.

So theres a difference in the attitude of one who might say "let us sin that grace might abound" verses, "What a wretched man am I who will save me from this body of death" Paul said it wasn't him doing it at all but sin.

What I'm saying is that IF YOU DO SIN we have an advocate. Gods grace will still abound, it abounded toward Paul while he was yet a sinner and a slave to it.

God Himself gave the commandment which afforded sin, even Paul said without the law sin is dead. So the question is, why the law? and for what purpose did God bind all men over to disobedience by it?

To have mercy.

In Him Kim

Multimom: There are two broad streams of doctrine about salvation among Baptists, which is one reason we're so contentious. In-between is where most Baptists land.

Star: I think I understand what you're saying. The Law was a tutor to show that we are sinners and cannot keep all the commandments; therefore, only grace can save us. Is that right?

[ August 03, 2002, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

rsr,

That too The law not only showed you sin it empowered it. The law was added that sin might become utterly sinful. The power of it is the Law. Paul agreed that the law was good, but he said he could not perform it. Thou shalt not covet (the commandment) produced in him every covetousness desire. Paul was off the hook, Paul was no longer doing it but sin (aroused by the law) Paul didn't attain perfection through quoting or the obeying of the ten commandments, he came to realize that could not be done. Because what he wanted to do he could not carry out despite the fact he agreed with it, and considered it good.

Something else came into the picture and it certainly wasn't more laws As sin abounded grace did the more. The gift of forgiveness must follow many offenses otherwise theres nothing to forgive (no knowing experiencially) His forgiveness in and toward you for these things.

All for grace

In Him Kim

OK

What I'm saying is that IF YOU DO SIN we have an advocate. Gods grace will still abound, it abounded toward Paul while he was yet a sinner and a slave to it.

I agree with that completely. But am I not accurate in my understanding that the Nazarene denomination does believe in the ability to lose ones salvation and regain it again? I'm I wrong that they believe this process can be repeated with out impunity?

IF I am correct then their doctrine makes the blood of Jesus of no effect.

Multimom,

IF I am correct then their doctrine makes the blood of Jesus of no effect.

The only thing that makes the blood of Jesus of no effect is to fall from GRACE by following the law (rules, rituals, religious observances, human perfection, what YOU do and not what GOD has already done in the finished work of Christ). Paul admonishes the Galatians that they will fall from grace if they try to attain their goal by HUMAN effort and not by the power of the Holy Spirit.

How many times does a person have to "walk the aisle" before the blood of Christ takes effect? Zero times, IMO. While we were YET sinners, Christ died for the ungodly....... It's already done, sis.

Multimom:

I don't think they would put it that way, but they do believe it is possible for a Christian to "apostatize and, unless he repent of his sin, be hopelessly and eternally lost."

As to multiple "salvations," I doubt serious students of Nazarene theology would hold to that.

But an interesting take on when salvation occurs is found in this article from a fundamental Nazarene magazine, which contends that many who think they have been regenerated haven't yet.

http://www.fwponline.cc/v7n1brush.html

[ August 07, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

I don't think they would put it that way, but they do believe it is possible for a Christian to "apostatize and, unless he repent of his sin, be hopelessly and eternally lost."

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In otherwords they believe Heb 10:26-27, Rom 11:22, and Heb 6:4-6.

Yes, those scriptures are among those cited in their statement of faith.

The others:

(Godlikeness and moral responsibility: Genesis 1:26-27; 2:16-17; Deuteronomy 28:1-2; 30:19; Joshua 24:15; Psalm 8:3-5; Isaiah 1:8-10; Jeremiah 31:29-30; Ezekiel 18:1-4; Micah 6:8; Romans 1:19-20; 2:1-16; 14:7-12; Galatians 6:7-8

Natural inability: Job 14:4; 15:14; Psalms 14:1-4; 51:5; John 3:6a; Romans 3:10-12; 5:12-14, 20a; 7:14-25

Free grace and works of faith: Ezekiel 18:25-26; John 1:12-13; 3:6b; Acts 5:31; Romans 5:6-8, 18; 6:15-16, 23; 10:6-8; 11:22; 1 Corinthians 2:9-14; 10:1-12; 2 Corinthians 5:18-19; Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:21-23; 2 Timothy 4:10a; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 3:12-15; 6:4-6; 10:26-31; James 2:18-22; 2 Peter 1:10-11; 2:20-22