about the Catholic Church

Sirach wrote:
Shouldn't we first seek to truly understand Catholic teachings before casting judgement on it? With so many people that are baptist that can't agree on the Catholic Church teachings, it shows that we all need to study it more from Catholic sources, so to understand it, then and only then can we help Catholics who do not have Christ.
Let's go back to the Bible and see how things should be done.

Acts 17:16 and following. "Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Now Paul was an educated man, and being sensitive to the needs of the people, and rather new to the area, he went henceforth to the local library to look up the customs and traditions of the Athenians, lest he should misrepresent what they meant by their open idolatry. After this, Paul quietly approached unto the Athenians, and inquired as to their interpretation of their own writings and beliefs. This being done, and not wanting to cast judgement upon them, he left them to their idolatry." NOT HARDLY!!! Here's what it really says.

"Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry. Therefore disputed he disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him. Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection." Acts 17:16-18

Paul didn't use their traditions either, he used Scripture.

"And Paul, as his manner was , went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures , Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ." Acts 17:2-3

It's nice to have common ground when speaking to someone. But what is the ultimate goal? It should be the salvation of the soul. In order for a person to be saved, they first have to understand that they are a hell-deserving sinner with no ability to save themselves. No matter how you slice it, that's not a very positive message. The world's salesman approach to soulwinning might be a good initial approach for some, but you still have to get around to the ugly truth. Sugar coating the Gospel was something Jesus didn't do. Just look how He addressed the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23. He called them "hypocrites!", said they would "...receive the greater damnation.", said their converts were "...twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.", "blind guides", "fools and blind", "full of dead men's bones, and all uncleanness", "outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity", "serpents", "generation of vipers", "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Before you say, "But you're not God", I'm well aware of that. However, Jesus Christ is our ultimate example.

Understanding what Catholics believe from Catholic sources will not help a Catholic to see his need of the Saviour. Opening and alleging from the Scriptures will.

In Christ,
daktim

 

I am not trying to make a point other than the clear point that the numbering had already been established by the time of the first century writing of the NT text.

I am also pointing out that it is THAT same numbering that is accepted by the non-Catholic churches today.

Certainly you are right to point out that in either enumeration - all the same words, same commands are there.

AS for these being called "the TEN WORDS" of God - and "The TEN COMMANDMENTS" - it is too late to debate that point - the Bible already speaks of these TEN in that way and even says about them "AND God added NO MORE".

They are a complete - fully identified unit - a unit of TEN according to scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I agree that you can do more with honey than vinegar and that there are a lot of good examples of various Christian groups cooperating toward a positive goal and the Schivo case is a good example of one of them.

However if the Baptists are to "win" Catholics into the Baptis fold - they have to be able to point out the problems in Catholicism to show "why a move" would even be desirable.

But I would argue for more than just a nit picky practice of sniping at Catholics for transgressions of past generations or minor doctrinal flaws.

In my opinion the "substance" for motive to change would have to come from "real error" that is IN the RCC today.

For example - IF she still clings to the logic/rationalizing of the dark ages and inquisition - then though she may not "practice torture" today - she remains comitted to its principle argument as a valid form of "correction" in society.

That would be a HUGE problem - not some sniping little detail of no consequence - wouldn't you agree?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Which part of the scriptures? It couldn't have been the NT as we have it now.

The Gospel of Mark was written between the year 65-70. It appears that the original audience may well have been gentile Christians faced with persecution.

The Gospel of Matthew was written between 80-85. Because of its attention to the OT, it appears to have been written for Christians who had converted from Judaism.

The Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts were written between 80-90 and were a two part work, with Luke being the first half. The Gospel of Luke (and Acts) was for gentile Christians and shows how faithful Jews had accepted Jesus as the foretold Messiah from the OT. Luke also shows that Jesus is the Savior of all people.

 

Every time you see the phrase "it is written" or "Scripture says" or "According to the scriptures" in the NT - what are they quoting??

You are right - the OT.

They did not call it "the Old Testament" they called it "Scripture" and "The Word of God".

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is pretty interesting - but it is an invalid application.

In Matt 7 Christ said TO JUDGE those who come to you in sheep's clothing but are in fact wolves. He says "BY their fruits you SHALL know them".

But in Matt 7:1-4 he is talking about members INSDIE the church who nitpick at each other NOT over doctrine but over behavior.

However when it comes to the gross doctrinal errors of what Paul said to Timothy are "Doctrines of demons" - the NT authors were VERY strongly opposed and in 1Tim chapter 1 we see Paul telling Timothy to stay behind at Ephesus JUST to deal with the BAD doctrine question.

Titus is told to strongly denounce the bad doctrines being promoted in his church as well.

Then in 2Cor 11

In Gal 5 Paul argues that the bad doctrine causes them to "Fall from Grace".

In Acts 20 Paul argues that wolves come from within promoting bad doctrine.

How can there be any doubt about the problem of inserting error into the Church??!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Really? Please explain. Is it because the RCC has statues of Jesus, Mary, and the Saints?

Are you using Exodus 20: 4-5 (Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me as proof that we are not to have statues?


Idol - a representation or symbol of an object of worship; a false god.

Image - A reproduction of the form of a person or an object.
An optically formed duplicate, counterpart, or other representative
reproduction of an object, especially an optical reproduction of an object
formed by a lens or a mirror.
This is what the dictionary says an image is. It could be a statue, icon, or
even a photograph.


Do you have a photograph of a loved one? Do you worship it? I doubt it.
Maybe you only use the picture to remind yourself of that person. Isn't
that right?
What about the statue of Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial?
Do you or anyone else worship it or any other statue? Of course not.
Then why is the statue there? It is to remind us of what a great man he was
and in an image to which we can relate.


It is the same situation in the Catholic Church. The statues in the Catholic Church are there to remind us of our founder, Jesus Christ, His mother,and the great saints of the Church.


Now let's look to see where God commanded a graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth to be made.

Numbers 21:8-9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

GOD clearly said make an image.

Exodus 25:16-21 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.

25:17
And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.

25:18
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

25:19
And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

25:20
And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

25:21
And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Another clear message directly from GOD to make an image. Did you notice that these gold cherubim were to be mounted atop the most sacred object on earth, the Ark of the Covenant?


Chapters 5 and 6 of 1Kings tell of the building of Solomon's Temple as
commanded by GOD, and decorating it inside with...


I Kings 6:22
And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.

6:23
And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.

6:24
And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.

6:25
And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.

6:26
The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.

6:27
And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

6:28
And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

6:29
And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without.

6:30
And the floors of the house he overlaid with gold, within and without.

6:31
And for the entering of the oracle he made doors of olive tree: the lintel and side posts were a fifth part of the wall.

6:32
The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.

6:33
So also made he for the door of the temple posts of olive tree, a fourth part of the wall.

6:34
And the two doors were of fir tree: the two leaves of the one door were folding, and the two leaves of the other door were folding.

6:35
And he carved thereon cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered them with gold fitted upon the carved work.


Do you see the pattern here? It is very clear.
GOD had said to make images that come from GOD but make no images that are against Him...

1. Angels are Saints, St. Michael, St. Raphael, St. Gabriel.
2. There are many Saints who never were Angels, St. Mary, St. Peter, etc.
3. Saints are of GOD so what is the problem of having a statue of them?
4. Jesus Christ is certainly of GOD, so what is the problem of having a crucifix to remind us of the passion He suffered for each of us?

We do not bow down and serve the statue as if it were god.

 

Catholics of the 20th century publish the connection to paganism for the world to see and understand.

Pagan prayer methods.

..

 

The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J. Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

Parenthetical inserts “mine”

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Catholic historian Thomas Bokenkotter's best selling pro-Catholic work "a concise history of the Catholic church" makes it abundantly clear..

Ibid -Pg 49 speaks of the change that occurred in the 4th century

So there we have it on two short pages (49-50) of that telling work done by a Catholic historian - revealing the ongoing evolutionary process in the church that brings us to where we are today.

How much influence did this have on the RCC “really”?

 

So are you saying the Jews were pagan? The kissed the Torah

 

Sirach,

The numbering is not the primary problem. The problem is that they removed the part about making graven images and bowing down to them.

The reason why they would have to do that obvious.

Mike

 

You're right, D28guy. I remember the first time I went to a Baptist church and somebody asked if anyone could name all Ten Commandments. I volunteered, and when I got done, I got some very strange looks. I was taught the same "restructured" ten that you were. Delete number two, and cut number ten in half, making each half a whole.

daktim

 

No one has addressed my above point with regards to the statues.

Also, we don't bow down to the images of the saints.

 

That's one I havent' seen in the Bible. Saints are redeemed ones, those who have been sactified or set apart because of salvation. I've never heard of an angel being referred to as a saint.

daktim

 

Angel is their job description (messenger), saint designates their holiness "sanctos" = holy in Latin.