What happens when we die...

Originally posted by Logan:
Greetings wopik!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wopik:
Christians will never have to experience the "second death" (Rev 20:6 / 21:8).

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I agree. I dont think I stated or implied we do.

It is appointed unto all men to die (Heb 9:27).

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Yes....and then face judgment. Again..I agree.

If Christians never die, why do they have to be resurrected -- "made alive" ?

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Christians souls never die. That is who we are. "The flesh accounts for nothing" (John 6:63).

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the rich man have both died, but their souls are still alive, despite the death of their bodies (and the same is true of Abraham). All of this takes place before the resurrection of their bodies, while the rich man's brothers are still alive.

There are several more Scripture references of the souls alive after physical death but I am completely out of time right now. Hope to chat later guys... </font>[/QUOTE]The immortality of the soul is not a true doctrine. The soul that sins dies, Christain or not.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Notice in the next verse James identifies them as brethern.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Originally posted by jcf:
The immortality of the soul is not a true doctrine. The soul that sins dies, Christain or not.

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There is no Scriptual support for a statement such as this, that the Christian soul dies....none...

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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The soul that sins dies...This does nont refer to the Christian.

Notice in the next verse James identifies them as brethern.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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Look closely at the text you quoted here. The sinner who repents and is converted will not die i.e...his soul will not die, hence will live eternally. "...and shall save a soul from death." How do you get the soul will die out of this??

Originally posted by Logan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jcf:
The immortality of the soul is not a true doctrine. The soul that sins dies, Christain or not.

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There is no Scriptual support for a statement such as this, that the Christian soul dies....none...

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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The soul that sins dies...This does nont refer to the Christian.

Notice in the next verse James identifies them as brethern.

James 5:19-20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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Look closely at the text you quoted here. The sinner who repents and is converted will not die i.e...his soul will not die, hence will live eternally. "...and shall save a soul from death." How do you get the soul will die out of this?? </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Logan,

I gave Scripture proof that souls are not immortal but you rejected it.

Brethern, if you err from the truth and I lead you back I saved your soul from death.

How plain, how clear...

Greetings jcf,

Is this your Scriptual support that the soul will die? It states thet the sinful soul will die, but it never says the Christian souls will die.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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The soul that sins dies...This does not refer to the Christian.

Once again....look closely at the text you quoted here. The sinner who repents and is converted will not die i.e...his soul will not die, hence will live eternally. "...and shall save a soul from death." How do you get the soul will die out of this??

I gave Scripture proof that souls are not immortal but you rejected it.

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With all due respect, I did not reject it, but un-wrenched the context you shaped it into.

Brethern, if you err from the truth and I lead you back I saved your soul from death.
How plain, how clear...

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And how does this verse support the proposition that the soul dies? If a soul is saved from death, then how do you come up with that it dies?

The confusion here is over the meaning of the soul "dying". "death" of the soul, as it is used in those passages means eternal death (whatever you believe that to be like). That is not referring to physical death, which all, sinner and righteous [i.e. redeemed sinner, or even the sinless Christ!] experience.

The following is material that I wrote in relation to a related thread on another forum:

I do not think I have the knowledge to comment on the scriptural support for either side of this debate. However, I have what I will call "philosophical" / empirical suspicions about the notion of an immortal soul. Presumably, if such a soul exists, mine is present with me even as I write this, directing the actions of my fingers as I type. In other words, I presume that you supporters of the existence of an immortal soul believe that this "soul" interacts in a causal sense with the body in which it is housed. If I am wrong, please indicate. I think there is a big problem here as I have argued in other threads. In particular, there would seem to be a requirement for this immaterial soul to "burst through" into the world of physical causation in order to effect any interactions with the body. This seems "awkward" and unsatisfying to me (of course, this does not make it wrong).

Consider also the extremely tight coupling of the physical world to the "soul". If we are given drugs, our moods and perceptions change (and I assume that the word "soul" is generally meant to refer to our subjective world of inner experience: sensation, emotion, etc, all the things that would distinguish us from a "robot"). If the brain is damaged or altered, the "soul" seems to be immediately affected. More and more discoveries are being made to the effect that our subjective inner experiences are correlated to the physical state of the brain. Now this correlation does not prove that the soul is merely the by-product of the actions of the brain. But to me, it is strongly suggestive to this effect.

I also have some suspicions about a disposition, a bias, that tends to push us to the immortal soul position before the debate even starts. First, it is uncomfortable to think that we may need to "sleep" for thousands of years before the resurrection. Second, I think that we humans are deeply stuck in the conceptual rut of thinking that, in order for something to be real, it has to be a "substance". In the case of the soul, we posit the existence of an immaterial substance. I think we tend to ignore the possibility that the very real integrated collection of memories, sensations, thoughts, personality, emotion etc that we might call the soul are really not so much a "thing" as there are a "phenomena". In other words, the way that God made the world is such that certain physical processes (like neurons firing in the brain) are simply accompanied by the subjective (phenomenal) experiences we all have. When our destroyed bodies are resurrected, this phenomenology flowers back into existence.

Someone else presented the analogy that perhaps a human being is not "body+soul" or "body+soul+spirit" but rather it is akin to single unified geometrical object that looks different depending on your "perspective". I lean to this position myself. Consider a cylinder. From one line of sight (projection) it looks like a circle, from another it looks like a rectangle. And yet it is, in reality, a single structure. Could it not be so with the human being?

Look, if there were no other verses in the Bible about this topic of what happens to Christians who die, these ought to be enough to give light on the subject:

When is the body to be redeemed?
I Thess 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first" -See Phil. 3:20,21

When is mortality to be swallowed up of life?
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." -I Corinthians 15:51-53

Obviously, if we go to heaven right when we die, there would be no reason for the second coming of Christ! Why do you think that Jesus said He was going to prepare a place for us and that when He returns He would receive us unto Himself?
Jn:14:3: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." If we were ALREADY up in heaven, why would Jesus come again to receive us unto Himself? Let's think this out... If the dead in Christ RISE out of the grave at the second coming of Christ, then what did Jesus do... take us out of heaven, stick us back into the grave and raise us up once again? I think not!


You all ought to take time to go read my website concerning what happens to the dead.

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/stateofthedead.htm

Here's just a bit of it:

5.DO SOULS DIE?

Ezekiel 18:20
" The soul that sinneth, it shall die. "
Revelation 16:3
"Every living soul died in the sea."

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (I Timothy 6:15,16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

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6.DO GOOD PEOPLE GO TO HEAVEN WHEN THEY DIE?

John 5:28,29
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth."
Acts 2:29,34
" David... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." " For David is not ascended into the heavens"
Job 17:13
"If I wait, the grave is mine house."

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

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7.HOW MUCH DOES ONE KNOW OR COMPREHEND AFTER DEATH?

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
" For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. "
Psalm 115:17
"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

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8.BUT CAN'T THE DEAD COMMUNICATE WITH THE LIVING, AND AREN'T THEY AWARE OF WHAT THE LIVING ARE DOING?

Job 14:12,21
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them."
Eccesiastes 9:6
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. "

Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished. (Psalm 146:4)

9.JESUS CALLED THE UNCONSCIOUS STATE OF THE DEAD 'SLEEP' IN JOHN 11:11-14 How long will the dead sleep?

Job 14:12
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."
II Peter 3:10
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away."
Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind. Jesus calls death "sleep". It is a state of total unconsciousness.

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10.WHAT HAPPENS TO THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST?

Revelation 22:12
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
I Thess. 4:16,17
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and the dead in Christ shall rise... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I Corinthians 15:51-53
"We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ...and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, ...For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to Heaven at death.

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11.WHAT WAS THE DEVIL'S FIRST LIE?

Genesis 3:4
"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die."
Revelation 12:9
"That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan."

Answer: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.

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12.WHY DID THE DEVIL LIE TO EVE ABOUT DEATH? -Could this subject be more important than many think?

Answer: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt- Exodus 7:11; Woman of Endor- I Samuel 28:3-25; Sorcerers- Daniel 2:2; A certain damsel- Acts 16:16-18.)


A Solemn Warning
In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery- as he did in Daniel's day- to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.


Posing as Jesus' Disciples
Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, the Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

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13.DO DEVILS REALLY WORK MIRACLES?

Revelation 16:14
"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles."
Matthew 24:24
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Answer: Yes indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13,14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23,24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic world revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.

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Unfortunately, Most all of the Christian world had adopted the Roman Catholic pagan version of what happens to the soul... along with the false teachings on what eternal torment.


Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

Another Christian Writer put it this way:

The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.


"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life.

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion.

Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. John, in the Revelation, looking forward to the eternal state, hears a universal anthem of praise undisturbed by one note of discord. Every creature in heaven and earth was heard ascribing glory to God. Revelation 5:13. There will then be no lost souls to blaspheme God as they writhe in never-ending torment; no wretched beings in hell will mingle their shrieks with the songs of the saved.

Upon the fundamental error of natural immortality rests the doctrine of consciousness in death--a doctrine, like eternal torment, opposed to the teachings of the Scriptures,to the dictates of reason, and to our feelings of humanity. According to the popular belief, the redeemed in heaven are acquainted with all that takes place on the earth and especially with the lives of the friends whom they have left behind. But how could it be a source of happiness to the dead to know the troubles of the living, to witness the sins committed by their own loved ones, and to see them enduring all the sorrows, disappointments, and anguish of life? How much of heaven's bliss would be enjoyed by those who were hovering over their friends on earth? And how utterly revolting is the belief that as soon as the breath leaves the body the soul of the impenitent is consigned to the flames of hell! To what depths of anguish must those be plunged who see their friends passing to the grave unprepared, to enter upon an eternity of woe and sin! Many have been driven to insanity by this harrowing thought.

What say the Scriptures concerning these things? David declares that man is not conscious in death. "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4. Solomon bears the same testimony: "The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." "Their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10.

When, in answer to his prayer, Hezekiah's life was prolonged fifteen years, the grateful king rendered to God a tribute of praise for His great mercy. In this song he tells the reason why he thus rejoices: "The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day." Isaiah 38:18, 19. Popular theology represents the righteous dead as in heaven, entered into bliss and praising God with an immortal tongue; but Hezekiah could see no such glorious prospect in death. With his words agrees the testimony of the psalmist: "In death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms 6:5; 115:17.

Peter on the Day of Pentecost declared that the patriarch David "is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. The fact that David remains in the grave until the resurrection proves that the righteous do not go to heaven at death. It is only through the resurrection, and by virtue of the fact that Christ has risen, that David can at last sit at the right hand of God.

And said Paul: "If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18. If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection, "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished"? No resurrection would be necessary.

The martyr Tyndale, referring to the state of the dead, declared: "I confess openly, that I am not persuaded that they be already in the full glory that Christ is in, or the elect angels of God are in. Neither is it any article of my faith; for if it were so, I see not but then the preaching of the resurrection of the flesh were a thing in vain."--William Tyndale, Preface to New Testament (ed. 1534). Reprinted in British Reformers--Tindal, Frith, Barnes, page 349.

It is an undeniable fact that the hope of immortal blessedness at death has led to a widespread neglect of the Bible doctrine of the resurrection. This tendency was remarked by Dr. Adam Clarke, who said: "The doctrine of the resurrection appears to have been thought of much more consequence among the primitive Christians than it is now! How is this? The apostles were continually insisting on it, and exciting the followers of God to diligence, obedience, and cheerfulness through it. And their successors in the present day seldom mention it! So apostles preached, and so primitive Christians believed; so we preach, and so our hearers believe. There is not a doctrine in the gospel on which more stress is laid; and there is not a doctrine in the present system of preaching which is treated with more neglect!"-- Commentary, remarks on I Corinthians 15, paragraph 3.

This has continued until the glorious truth of the resurrection has been almost wholly obscured and lost sight of by the Christian world. Thus a leading religious writer, commenting on the words of Paul in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, says: "For all practical purposes of comfort the doctrine of the blessed immortality of the righteous takes the place for us of any doubtful doctrine of the Lord's second coming. At our death the Lord comes for us. That is what we are to wait and watch for. The dead are already passed into glory. They do not wait for the trump for their judgment and blessedness."

But when about to leave His disciples, Jesus did not tell them that they would soon come to Him. "I go to prepare a place for you," He said. "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself." John 14:2, 3. And Paul tells us, further, that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." And he adds: "Comfort one another with these words." I Thessalonians 4:16-18. How wide the contrast between these words of comfort and those of the Universalist minister previously quoted! The latter consoled the bereaved friends with the assurance that, however sinful the dead might have been, when he breathed out his life here he was to be received among the angels. Paul points his brethren to the future coming of the Lord, when the fetters of the tomb shall be broken, and the "dead in Christ" shall be raised to eternal life.

Nowhere in the Sacred Scriptures is found the statement

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that the righteous go to their reward or the wicked to their punishment at death. The patriarchs and prophets have left no such assurance. Christ and His apostles have given no hint of it. The Bible clearly teaches that the dead do not go immediately to heaven. They are represented as sleeping until the resurrection. I Thessalonians 4:14; Job 14:10-12. In the very day when the silver cord is loosed and the golden bowl broken (Ecclesiastes 12:6), man's thoughts perish. They that go down to the grave are in silence. They know no more of anything that is done under the sun. Job 14:21. Blessed rest for the weary righteous! Time, be it long or short, is but a moment to them. They sleep; they are awakened by the trump of God to a glorious immortality. "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." I Corinthians 15:52-54. As they are called forth from their deep slumber they begin to think just where they ceased. The last sensation was the pang of death; the last thought, that they were falling beneath the power of the grave. When they arise from the tomb, their first glad thought will be echoed in the triumphal shout: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Verse 55.
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and all I can say to all of that is AMEN! Lets read the Bible and stop making up our own doctrines!

Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

I just need to add this thought... you ought to read Bible verses with the word "sleep" or "asleep"... (the dead in Christ SLEEP in the grave till Jesus comes again, clearly) READ:


Mk:5:39: And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Lk:8:52: And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Jn:11:11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

Jn:11:12: Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

Jn:11:13: Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.


1Cor:15:6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Cor:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Cor:15:51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Thes:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thes:4:14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thes:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Thes:5:10: Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

2Pt:3:4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1Cor:15:6: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

1Cor:15:18: Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Thes:4:13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thes:4:15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

2Pt:3:4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Take a little time to listen to Pastor David Asscherick's sermon on "How God deals with sin". download and listen:
http://www.3abn.org/media/archives/index.php

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Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

This is why a great final warning is given to the Christian World to "Come out of her (Babylon), my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

The Christian World has adopted the false doctrines (the wine) of Babylon, the Roman Catholic Church, and are blind to the fact that some of their main teachings have no place in Scripture. The false Sunday Sabbath has been put in the place of the true Sabbath, thus setting aside the ten commandments, along with the fact that they (most of Christianity) have espoused the false doctrines of immortality of the soul (dying and going straight to heaven or hell) and eternal torment that come from Spiritualism and the Roman Catholic Church.


Rv:18:1-5:
1: And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3: For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5: For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Rev. 14:
6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


by the way... the verse "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters" there in Revelation 14:7 is taken right out of the 4th Commandment, the 7th day Sabbath Commandment. The warning is given because the Christian World has adopted the false Sunday Sabbath.

"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

You need to realize these false doctrines came right out of ROME. and God foresaw this.

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

This quotation emphasizes the fact that since the world accepts Sunday as a day of worship, this acknowledges her supremacy.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

There is no question concerning the changing of Sabbath the seventh day to Sunday the first day by the Papacy. You can readily see that there is nothing to be found in the Bible about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Papacy is correct in stating that they changed the day.

"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

Sunday is the mark of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the "Mark of the Beast." Of this there is absolutely no question, either in the Word of God or in history.


---------
Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org

Sorry I shouldve said...

Take a little time to listen to Pastor David Asscherick's sermon on "God's response to sin". download and listen:
http://www.3abn.org/media/archives/index.php

I said "How God deals with sin" and I forgot its called "God's response to sin". I tried to edit it in my former post but time on this ran out that allows you to edit a post.