Sign gifts--Tongues etc

Cheers Rich,

I can pretty much tell you who will go pro, and who will take the con

We went ALL over this about 3 months ago, but I am sure that the warriors here will gladly go for a round 2.

Singer, Carson, and Oneness are pro, Myself, DHK, and Briguy, will go con.

Ready for round 2 boys?

 

My take is a bit of a theological smorgasbord:-

1. I am not a cessationist - I believe that the charismata are for today.

2. However, I believe that in some cases the charismata are not being exercised in true Biblical fashion today. For instance, I believe that the gift of tongues refers to genuine foreign languages (as per Acts 2) rather than 'nonsensical babblings'.

3. I do not believe in subsequence/ SEcond Blessing pneumatology - I believe all Christians are baptised in the HS at conversion. However, for some there are undoubtedly instances of this being 'quickened' or 'fanned into flame' at various points in their walk of faith, according to God's gracious gift.

That'll do to be going with...!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I can only repeat what I have seen and heard.

Yes, I've had a firsthand encounter with the Holy Spirit that has
positively influenced my life.

Search the archives, Rich-UK; it's all there. I don't think I could do a rerun
of it again.

 

Ahh...Rich, if you have to go by the way of the archives, you will see that some think that they won the battle against the true Spirit of the Lord. But, you know what?...at the time of "the crucifixion" they thought they had done away with the Lord, but HE'S BACK!

Tongues, as the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, still exists!

You can't change His Word.

MEE

 

Hi Rich, Great topic!! I say that because it is a topic we have dicussed a lot before and we have discussed it a lot because it is a great topic

I don't have the time or energy for a detailed answer but read 1 Cor. 12-14. In 12:7 you will see a Spiritual Gift is for the common good of the church, therefore for corporate edification and not personal edification. In Chap. 14 Paul says that someone, referring to those mis-using the gift, are edifying themselves. From 12:7 we know this is a negative statement. Later in 14 Paul says tongues are a "sign" to unbelievers, then he quotes Isaiah so we know he means the house of Isreal. The "sign" points to a coming judgement that happened in 70ad when Isreal was scattered. So, tongues faded out exactly how 1 Cor. 13 says they will. There, that was a readers Digest version of why tongues are gone. Healing, miracles, and of course interpretation of tongues are also gone. The rest of the gifts are active for today . Thats it for now

Welcome to the board Rich and again

Great Topic

In Christ,
Brian

 

Healing, miracles, and of course interpretation of tongues are also gone.

Ummmm..........except we still have the miracle of nature, childbirth, how the
earth maintains its axis, why the birds fly south every winter, how a spider
knows and has the ability to make a web, musical talent, why the sun doesn't
burn out, how a tiny seed can produce a mighty Oak, the animal food chain,
landing on the moon, why grass is always green (except during drought... ..)
my grandson who is learning to talk, why my wife loves me after 35 years, how
God answers prayer, how bones heal, how a soul consecrated to God responds
with a changed life (born again) etc.

Oh and don't forget the miracle and Self Edification that accompanies
eternal personal salvation. It's hard to entertain the desire to save one's self from
eternal damnation without believing in some sort of self edification !!!

For a Christian to believe that some day; God will raise his dead body from the
grave and unite him with loved ones in another quasi-physical setting but yet
believe that it is not possible to be enveloped in the Holy Ghost via our present
and living God........evades me.

Yeah...consider me pro.

 

Singer, the spiritual gift of "miracles" was primarily in relation to the raising of the dead. Seen any dead raised lately? - me either - so the gift is gone.

Miracles in the sense of God doing great things still continue. The fact that my wife settled for me was in fact a great miracle , but not associated with a spiritual gift. Remember, once God gives a spiritual gift, the receiver of the gift is then in charge of when the gift is used. If I give you a toy plane for Christmas, you then would possess the plane and decide when to go fly it. Hope that clears things up.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Since gifts were only given for the edification of the body, then any gift used at home in private is a violation of scripture. But even the ones practiced in the churches today are not scriptural gifts either. You will not find any evidence of the way they are practiced and preformed anywhere in scripture. For example, tongues were always languages known by some man, just not the speaker. Today they claim it is some "angelic" tongue.

All the sign gifts have ceased since there is no longer a purpose for them. The Bible is clear that it was the apostles who were given signs and wonders to confirm their messages. Now that we have their words in written form (the Bible) there is no need for signs and wonders any longer. The gifts from God have ceased. The next time you hear of signs and wonders in the Bible it is speaking to those preformed by the anti-christ who is almost capable of deceiving even the elect with his powers.

My husband, a former UPC member who has spoken in tongues can explain this better than I can. These churches and TV programs are based upon emotionalism. When you tie the emotionalism in with the fact that speaking in tongues is necessary for proof of the HS, therefore salvation, it puts undo pressure on an individual. Caught up in the emotion, while being surrounded by people who are overpowering you to "work through" this experience, you begin to just mumble. You think you are "letting go" and letting the Spirit, but all you have accomplished is some gibberish that, since no one can understand it and there is no way to confirm otherwise, you claim it to be from God. At the time, my husband thought this experience was very real, but when he truly began to examine the scriptures he realized that his experience was not genuine.

Which brings us the root of the problem. The fact that there is no way to confirm it is from God, not even in the scripture is more proof that it is not from God. Many Pagan religions speak in this same gibberish and that certainly is not from the Holy Spirit. God gave us His Word so that we could tell false doctrine from truth. Once you must accept an experience or teaching without scriptural evidence, I can assure you it is false.

~Lorelei

 

There is no biblical distinction to suggest that some Spiritual Gifts are "Sign Gifts".

All Spiritual Gifts are validly by scripture given to members of the body. Tounges, Prophecy, Healing are all valid gifts.

I know people that have been healed by God. I myself three times.

I have spoken in Tounges on several occasions and I can tell you that it was genuine,

There are several people I know of that have prophesied accuratley, Particurly concerning the fall of the Soviet Union.

People can be Cessationiost if they want, It is not for me and I have been in both Mainstream and Pentecostal churches.

Cessationism is a defeatest attitude of I cant, God Cant do this anymore etc etc. God can do what He likes and He will use all that are willing. He does not use those that are closeminded to Him though. How can He when people wont listen to what He is saying.

By the way it has also been confirmed by doctors and authorities that Daniel Echukuwaka was raised from the dead at a Reinhardt Bonnke Crusade in Nigeria.

 

"It is a defeatist attitude." I would be careful with your words.
"God can do what he likes..." For example, God can lie. God can steal.

God cannot do that which is against His nature to do so. He cannot go against His Word. If His Word teaches that spiritual gifts have ceased, God is not a liar. God cannot lie.
DHK

 

These churches and TV programs are based upon emotionalism. When
you tie the emotionalism in with the fact that speaking in tongues is
necessary for proof of the HS, therefore salvation


The Holy Spirit powered me while in deep prayer and revealed an audible
language that I had never learned after I mouthed "Praise God" over and
over. There was physical reaction as well and this all took place in private/alone.

I've been emotional when under military fire, while watching basketball and
football games, when threatened with a tornado, when caught shoplifting as
a child and when making love. I never even came close to speaking in tongues
at those times.

My experience was from the Lord and has given me assurance, authority and
joy in my salvation. Satan simply cannot attack us while in the depth of
prayer, with an open bible in front of us, arms lifted in praise while repeating
"Praise God". If someone can prove that he can, then I'd have to lose faith
in prayer, bible study, praying 'in the closet alone', praising God, lifting arms and
expecting answers from God.

That was my experience with the Lord....take it or leave it !

 

Hi Ben, from your post I can see a couple of things. First you have a lot to lose if you find out you are wrong about certain spiritual gifts. Second, you haven't looked into the "gifts" as deep as you could. For starters prophecy as a gift is not telling the future. The word in Greek means "to speak before" as in "in front of" others. It is simply a speaking gift primarily intended for the uplifting of believers. At a time when God was revealing His Word, those with the gift would have spoke some new revelations, but not so now.

1 cor 14: 3: But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

1 cor 14: 22: Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Ben, read carefully the verses above prove my point. The other thing to remember, which I pointed out above is that WE control our "gift", not God. God gave the "gift/s" to us and we use it/them when we choose. We must always keep in mind that a gift is for the edification of the "body" not an individual. Tongues spoken alonr are wrong just on that basis. I can prove they have ceased if you are willing to dig deep for the evidence. Think about what I have said for now and I will give you more to chew on later.

Singer, I love your zeal and passion. As I said above Tongues, done by oneself have no biblical basis, therefore what you experienced was simply an experience. It was an emotional high that you had because you have such a passion for Jesus. I am sorry to say it wasn't God generated but God is always true to His word and spiritual gifts are never God generated in their use anyway, they are God given and believer used

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

Brian,

Singer, I love your zeal and passion. As I said above Tongues, done by oneself have no biblical basis, therefore what you experienced was simply an experience. It was an emotional high that you had because you have such a passion for Jesus. I am sorry to say it wasn't God generated but God is always true to His word and spiritual gifts are never God generated in their use anyway, they are God given and believer used

And I also admire your patience and kind spirit, Brian.
As for your advice concerning tongues and my findings in such, I have to consider
that you are not speaking from experience...only from your deduction of scripture; whether that be right or wrong is unknown. You said my emotional high was "because you have such a passion for Jesus". I have to ask...Could Satan inspire my experience because I have such a passion for Jesus? I think not, and please understand that my experience came during and as a result of prayer to God. I have never dealt in the occult nor played with bad spirits.

I do not claim to be able to use tongues at my disposal nor interpret. It was a one time thing that gives me comfort and has been the grounds for my comment that "I can never deny the Living God since that experience".

I am sorry to say it wasn't God generated

That is only your opinion, Brian. Imagine what you're trying to get me to believe........That an ungodly force could choose to influence a believer during their
quest for God. If the life of a Christian is so fragile as to cause us to lay suspect the
matters of prayer and bible study, then I would have to allow you and others to cause me to doubt the merits of prayer, bible study, consecration to God, praying alone, expecting answers from God, quoting "Praise God", the after effects of Christian fellowship, allowing the Spirit to move, etc.

If I were to become so paranoid that Satan was trying to destroy me, then I would have to suspect that he was also using other influences on my life to my disdain.....(my wife, children, grandchildren, music, preachers, Catholics, weather patterns, my job, daily contacts, Nebraska " Big Red" Football phonecalls, internet, the U.S. Mail, reaction of pets, sleeping hours, reflections in mirrors, dreams, how fast my grass grows and so on.

Where would it end?

If we can't trust God in prayer, then there is no hope for any of us !!

 

Well since the Bible teaches that gifts are to be used to edify the body rather than for self and the Bible doesn't teach anything about avoiding attacks by Satan by repeating "Praise God" over and over again, then I will leave it. Believe what you want but don't fool yourself into believing the Bible confirms it, because it does not.

~Lorelei

 

Well since the Bible teaches that gifts are to be used to edify the body
rather than for self and the Bible doesn't teach anything about avoiding
attacks by Satan by repeating "Praise God" over and over again, then I
will leave it. Believe what you want but don't fool yourself into believing
the Bible confirms it, because it does not.

Thanks, Lorelei, I'll add you to the list of those who would have me doubt God.
Next, I don't claim to have the gift of tongues. That incident was 26 Plus years
ago and has never been repeated.

Don't you believe in a "personal" relationship with the Lord?
You may have sought "personal" enlightenment from God in the matters of
marriage and became assured that your husband was the right choice for you.
That is a biblical approach for you, but that same answer would be foolishness
for me as I'd look funny sleeping with your husband. My answer would be totally
different....same as in this case of my experience. I went to God in prayer with
total expectation of an answer to matters troubling me and what I got I credited
to God. It may not have been the answer He'd have given you.

Should we put no trust in prayer as Paul suggests?

Philippians 4:6
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with
thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Or would you have me believe that this verse is also not for us today?
Paul was speaking to the Philippi church, however. Much as some insist
that gifts are not for today; that it was only for unbelievers in 70 AD. Verse 7
says "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep
your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." It didn't say to doubt God's
choice of answer and to suspect that Satan has snuck into your prayerlife
and given you a stone when you've asked for a fish.

Maybe the following verse is not for us today then:

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and
with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

I claim salvation and that is about as "self edifying" as you can get.
It also came through faith and prayer on my part. I might have even said
"Thank you Jesus". Did Satan sneak in there and give me false hope? Nah.

Did Satan sneak into my prayerlife and give me false reason to praise God?
No, Lorelei..No ! He would not cause me to spend the next 27 years telling
others of the Gospel story.

 

It certainly doesn't say to trust the answer regardless of whather it is scriptural or not.

Paul rebuked the Corinthians for accepting spirits and other gospels so easily. He warned us that these came from Satan.

According to you, the experience only edified yourself. No where in the testimony of your experience did you share the gospel story. Are you aware that the gospel deals with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and has nothing to do with your experience?

See, Paul had a real experience with the Lord. According to Corinthians he spoke tongues more than ALL of you, and he speaks about tnogues ALOT less! His experience caused him to preach the gospel. The Holy Spirit teaches us about Jesus, he does not cause us to focus on Himself.

Read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, he used the gift to preach the gospel, not edify himself. He used the gift for what it was intended. It was a most powerful sermon. Unfortunately, your experience served you and you alone, this is not the example we find of it's use in the NT. Of course we find very little in the NT about it's use at all. That should tell you something right there.

~Lorelei

 

2 questions:-

1. Briguy, whilst I accept that 'prophecy' usually means to 'speak in front of, address' (which can of course include 'ordinary' preaching), what was Agabus doing in Acts?

2. Lorelei - I'd be interested to see your Scriptural justification for your view that the charismata ceased with the apostles - I've had a good look and can't seem to see it...

Yours in Christ

Matt