Sign gifts--Tongues etc

Lorelei

WHile I believe SInger's experience was not tongues, and will adamantly stand firm on that

I have experienced tongues according to Biblical standards, that I understand, and several people claim that tongues should operate under.

The need for tongues has lessened yes - but it is still very necessary in todays society, not as a praise tool, not as a prayer tool, but as tool to confirm the exposition of correct doctrine in a more evangelistic setting.

I heard them speak in English, but the student group I was sitting in on, swore they were speaking Cebuano. The leaders were saying the whole Catholic church was damned to Hell - and that Catholicism encouraged sinning

While; the pope and such may not be getting into heaven, there will be a few Catholics in heaven, and I have yet to hear a Catholic preacher rise up in his robes, and from the pulpit say: go forth and fornicate my child, or some such. Speaking lies to try and "convert" people is a poor poor evangelism tool! So I spoke out against that teaching despite the fact it was the mission agency that was hosting me.

I have personally experienced tongues in that
I spake in mine own language, and the company of students, and the missionary swore I spoke in their mother tongues of Cebuano quite fluently in rebuttal to there very biased teachings.

 

When the shoe fits where it. Don't deny it.

http://www.reformed.com/pub/charismt.htm
DHK [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]DHK, you still don't understand. I'm not of the Charismatic movement. The shoe doesn't fit!

In your link, you stopped a little short..maybe intentionally? It says, for all of those who didn't read it:

...We are not saying that Charismatics are not Christians. And we are not examining their distinctives because we dislike Charismatics personally (the author was a Charismatic for over three years, and many of his friends are still Charismatic).
Still not classified as "Charismatic."

MEE

 

MEE,
Reading the article in its entirety would be good for you. It is a good article. What he says at the beginning is true:

This defines you and the Oneness Pentecostal group. You are part of the fast growing Charismatic Movement, where doctrine does not matter very much, and the emphasis is on experience, particularly the experience of speaking in tongues. It really doesn't matter to the Charismatics whether you believe in the trinity or not. All that matters to them is that you have spoken in tongues.
DHK

 

Yes, Look at Catholicism. The great majority of them are unsaved and don't have a clue of what salvation is. In talking with them this is what I find:

1. Receiving Christ as Saviour is what I do every Sunday when I receive the host at communion.

2. Being born again is what happened to me at baptism as an infant.

Are they saved? Not a chance!
DHK

 

2John 7-11
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Many deceivers are gone out into this world. What do they preach? That Jesus Christ is not come in the flesh. That is, that the Lord Jesus Christ, that historical person that came 2000 years ago, was not God in the flesh. They denied the deity of Christ. If any man come to you and bring not the doctrine of Christ (the deity of Christ--which would include the trinity--don't even receive him into your house; don't even say good-bye to him. (Good-bye means God be with ye. John say you are a partaker of his evil deeds if you so much as say good bye to one of these false teachers who deny the deity of Christ or the trinity. To deny one is to deny the other.
DHK

 

DHK,

Yes, Look at Catholicism. The great majority of them are unsaved and don't have a clue of
what salvation is.

Many deceivers are gone out into this world. What do they preach? That Jesus Christ is
not come in the flesh. That is, that the Lord Jesus Christ, that historical person that came
2000 years ago, was not God in the flesh. They denied the deity of Christ.

Ya got THAT right, Brother.

What Jesus expects us to believe is "that He came from the Father'' or ''that He is risen from the dead",
or that Jesus is Lord of which all attests to His divinity.

The issue is not whether we've found some ''true church'' or whether we speak
in tongues or attend church, or get baptised or worship on a certain day or rest
on a certain day or attend Mass or honor a Pope.

 

I'm glad you agree. Then you would have no problem agreeing that one cannot be saved unless they believe that the Jesus that they are calling on for salvation is indeed God, the the second person of the trinity.
No one said that they had to understand it all, but simply believe it by faith. Those who deny it are false teachers.
DHK

 

Then you would have no problem agreeing that one cannot be saved
unless they believe that the Jesus that they are calling on for salvation is indeed God, the the second person of the trinity.

Well I can see justification for believeing that, yes, but I can't say I
did from the start. Like you say, we don't have to understand it and
it even remains a mystery to those of us who subscribe to that thinking.

Jesus said "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father"and
"I and the Father are one".

And John says...."He was in the world and the world was made by
Him and the world knew Him not".

Not all verses say we're to believe that it was He who came in the flesh,
and I don't have any problem with that.

Amazing God...isn't He !! (Be careful when ya pray though).

 

Looks to me, Isaiah was either smoking something ( ), or, according to him, Jesus is the Everlasting Father in the flesh... he also mentions that He is the Counsellor, which is the equivalent of "Comforter" so... um... according to that, Jesus is the Holy Ghost, too? Where's the mention of Him being the "Eternal God the Son"?

That conflicts the doctrine of the trinity, does it not? According to the Athanasian Creed, the Father does not equal Holy Ghost nor Son. Son does not equal Father nor Holy Ghost. Holy Ghost does not equal Father nor Son. Also, if the Son is eternal, how can He be begotten? Begotten shows there is a finite point in time when one begins to exist.

Second person of the trinity? I don't see anywhere in the Word of God that states you must believe Jesus is the second person of the trinity to make it to heaven. Please find it for me? I think my bible may be broken.

 

Singer, I hope that your wife appreciates your sense of humor.

Love reading your posts,

MEE

 

Thanks nytxn, now I don't feel so alone.

MEE

 

Howdy, MEE!

 

I detect mockery here. Is it a mockery of the Word of God. Here is some Scripture to chew on:

Concerning the Third Person of the Trinity:
Mat.12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Concerning the Second Person of the Trinity:
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Concerning the Frist Person of the Trinity:
John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Concerning the Trinity:
Mat.3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here all three persons of the triune Godhead--the trinity, are present and active--all at the same time, proving that they are three persons in one God.
Person #1 is the Father who is speaking out of Heaven.
Person #2 is the Son who is being baptized.
Person #3 is the Holy Spirit who is descending upon the person #2.

Three persons all in one God. Three persons all active at the same time. They are not maninfestations one of another. They are all present in one place at one time providing a different function. And yet the Bible says:

Isa.43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is only One God. There is no God formed before Him, neither after Him. He alone is the Saviour. There is only One God. That one God is in three persons.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Three persons in One God. There it is very plainly.

If you don't believe the Scriptures, why would you believe me? Don't mock the Word of God. That's a serious charge in God's sight.
DHK

 

[
Peace, Rich [/qb][/QUOTE]Ahh...Rich, if you have to go by the way of the archives, you will see that some think that they won the battle against the true Spirit of the Lord. But, you know what?...at the time of "the crucifixion" they thought they had done away with the Lord, but HE'S BACK!

Tongues, as the evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, still exists!

You can't change His Word.

MEE [/QB][/QUOTE]


Amen Mee,

I wasn't going to add a reply since this topic has been discussed on other boards besides the BB. and it appears to be with the same mixed results of opinion, But the word of God says:

"And these signs shall follow those who believe : In My name shall they cast out demons; They shall speak with new tongues; ....They shall lay hands on the sick; and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

Now I dont read here where it says any where that this is just to start the church off as some seem to teach as doctrine.

I myself don't speak in tongues, but I do believe they are a gift for the church today as well as the gift of healings and all the gifts spoken of in the bible. I have seen 3 people in my church healed since I have been there and I have only been at this church 3 months. 2 from cancer that the doctors couldn't explain and 1 from an illness that she could barely walk from to jumping around (and this woman is no spring chicken folks)

it is written in Matthew 13:58 "And He did not many miricles because of thier unbelief"

Some have said that tongues are for a sign to the unbeliever and this is true 1 Cor14:22 and yet Paul is speaking to the believer and says to them "...and forbid not to speak in tongues" vs 39
(Isn't amazing how long this debate has been going on? since at least the time that Paul wrote this book, and hence the reason for him addressing it)

Now I agree that not everyone speaks in tongues including myself, but just because I don't, doesn't mean that it is not a genuine gift from God. Some go to the other extreme and almost imply that if you dont speak in tongues you are not saved. Which I dont see where they get that either. for paul says not all speak in tongues.

We are encoraged to covet earnestly the best gifts 1Cor12:31 but Paul says thier is a more excellant way and that is love.

If Gods word says it then we as Christians are too believe it, if we don't say that these gifts were for just that time then they were meant for all time.

I dont know about anybody else but I desire everything that Jesus wants to give me and have seen too much evidense that the gifts and baptism of the Holy Spirit are real and for todays Christian. (If anything I think we need it today as much as they needed it then. at least they saw and walked with Jesus in His flesh)

Well I have probably said enough, especially being new to the board and all, but why cut ourselves short and believe only parts of the bible, when Jesus made sure that all of it has made it through these 2,000 years including the teaching on the gifts of the Spirit.

God bless you folks and thanks for the oportunity to share Gods word and I look forward to seeing others input and I am open to corrections.

" "Truly, my soul waiteth upon God; from Him cometh my savation" Psalm 62:1

 

Absolutely NOT. I am not mocking God's Word. I'm trying to reveal 1600 years of false doctrine.

Oh GOOD! I love eating the Word!

If this verse is true, which of course it is since it from the mouth of Jesus, then the trinity cannot be co-equal. Why would God allow the blasphemy against the Father and of the Son, but NOT the Holy Ghost? If ALL manner of blasphemy will be forgiven except the blashpemy of the Holy Ghost, God is divided and the Holy Ghost must be the Greatest member of the trinity.

How does that prove that the trinity is biblical?

Again... not seeing the trinity here.

I hate to burst your bubble here, DHK, but still not seeing a trinity...

Can someone please give me scripture where it says God is a trinity? I think my bible may still be broken.

Who is the Father of Jesus? Can someone please tell me?

Amen to that!

Um... care to give me scripture for that one?

Plainly? I see... these three are ONE... not "there are three person in the Godhead." ONE means one not three. The Father is the Word is the Holy Ghost. They are all the same ONE.

Again, Who is the Father of Jesus?
Who is the Spirit of Christ?
Who is the Spirit of the Father?
Who is the Holy Ghost?

I agree with you there. God holds His word in high regard.

I know I'm coming off a little harsh and I apologize for that.
I don't really intend to sound pompous. I'm just trying to get your attention and show you the lies we've all been fed for 1600 years about the supposed trinity.

God is not divided. God is ONE.

There is absolutely no scripture anywhere that states God is made up of three different individuals. It actually completely goes against the monotheism of the Old testament.

 

So, in your opinion, believers for over 1600 years either did not have the truth or believed in error. Just in the last few years God just came along and told you the truth that nobody else all these centuries has never had??

"Why would God allow the blasphemy against the Father and of the Son, but not the Holy Ghost?" Do you question the authority and purposes of God. It is Scripture that is quoted above, and the very words of Jesus at that! Are you inferring that He is a liar?

Jesus Christ is the second member of the trinity. If you do not believe in Him you not only do not have eternal life, but are condemned already. Take the Scriptures as a whole. You must believe in Christ, the Son for eternal life. You must believe in the Father, and you must believe in the Spirit. These three are One God: three persons in one God.

But of course your not really trying to see the trinity either. You don't want to. When you do not honor the Son, you do not honor the Father which has sent Him. Two different persons--one God.

Ah, I see. Your problem is that you have a vocabulary no larger than the words contained in the KJV. Since the word "trinity" is not in the KJV, there is no such thing. It must be very difficult for you to communicate with such a limited 1611 archaic vocabulary--limited by just 66 books of the Bible. Rapture isn't in the Bible either, but I do believe in it. In fact I don't find eschatology, soteriology, pneumatology, angeology, Bibliology, theology, Christology, harmartiology, anthropology, demonology, etc. I guess you should just throw out your entire Bible because those doctrines cover just about every doctrine in the Bible, yet the words are not found in your Bible. Pity isn't it. Can't talk about the Bible because "Bibliology" isn't in the Bible??
A lot of sense you guys make.

Yep, Like I said: A lot of sense you guys make. See above.

You really didn't read Mat.3:16,17, did you?
Out of the heaven came the voice of the Father saying: "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him."
The Father, present and speaking is one person of the trinity.
At the same time you see the Divine Holy Spirit descending upon the Divine Lord Jesus Christ.
At the same time you see the Lord God Jesus Christ being baptized and rising out of the water. Now you have witnesssed all three persons in action in one place at one time. All three persons united together as one God. "I am the Lord, beside me there is no other. There is no god formed before me; there shall no god be formed after me. I am the Lord, and beside me there is none other."
There is only One God. One God in three persons as amply demonstrated at the baptism of Jesus--which you failed to address, or just conveniently dismissed.

You don't see "plainly" at all, do you?
"And these three are one" (1John 5:7) These three are one. One what? One God of course.
likewise Jesus said in John 10:30,

"I and my Father are one."
Meaning--one God, of course.
If you don't believe me ask the Pharisees.

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

How did the Jews understand Jesus words: "I and my Father are one"? They tried to stone him because he was committing blasphemy--the sin of claiming to be God when being just a man. Of course they were wrong because Christ was God. But they did have the definition of blasphemy right. And they did understand the words of Christ correctly. Christ claimed to be God, and in fact, he claimed equality with God the Father at the same time.
DHK

 

Yep, Like I said: A lot of sense you guys make. See above.

.

You don't see "plainly" at all, do you?
"And these three are one" (1John 5:7) These three "I and my Father are one."
Meaning--one God, of course.
If you don't believe me ask the Pharisees.

John 10:30-33
30 I and my Father are one.
.


Hello b/b
I see good arguemaents for both sides and have prayed to God for answers to this debate of "Oneness VS Trinity" and here are some scriptures to consider:

DANIEL 7:9
"I Beheld till the thrones were placed, And the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, The hair of His head like pure wool; ..."

Is this GOD the Father?

Vs 13

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came before the Ancient Of Days , and they brought Him near before Him "

Could this be God The Father and God the Son? it is definately two seperate persons.

vs 14

"And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed"

Jesus?

John 17:11

"...keep them through Thine Own Name; those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one , as We are "

That same word one is used to describe the believers, but as you look around we are made up of individual persons, but yet one in Jesus.

Rev 5:1

" and I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a scroll..."

God the Father?

vs 2

"... who is worthy to open the scrolls, and loose its seals?"

vs 5

"...Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, The Root of David, hath prevailed to open the scroll..."

Jesus?

vs 6

"... In the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain,..."

Jesus?

vs 7

And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him that satupon the throne"

God the Father and God the Son? this is definately two seperate persons

This 5th chapter of revelation is in harmony with the 7th chapter of Daniel. and of course the humbleness of the Holy spirit is what hold us all together as one leading us into the truth and bring glory to Son who brings Glory to the Father.

I am not so sure they should be called the trinity as I see no scriptural foundation for the term but they are one in three different beings as far as I understand these passages.

Gen 1:26

"And God said let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness..."

God was obviously talking with someone here and it couldn't have been the angels seeing as they are not made in the image of God. But God was saying let Us make man in Our image


Just a thought and I look forward to reading future responses. May God bless all of you.

" Lord, Thou hastbeen our dwelling place in all generations" Psalm 90:1

[ July 02, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: JesusisGod2 ]