Sheep and Goats

Calvinist have a "bad habit" of redefining words (Faith=works) or are ignorant of what the scriptures actually mean.


I rest my case.

 

Justification is a one-time act of God where He declares a sinner to be righteous through Christ alone. Justification is by grace through faith alone.

Unless you are speaking of another justification, like in James 2 - justification before men?

Please clarify.

 

this is one of the first things you have ever said that I can agree with! Unless God does in fact do the changing, the goats will remain goats, for only He can work the miracle of changing goats into sheep, for the goat can no more turn himself or herself into a sheep then.. well.. then an Ethopian can change the color of their skin or a leopard change it's spots... or any more than a person can cause themselves to be born the first time, let alone the second!

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]Can you add one inch to your height just by "thinking it"??


"Thinking Good" doesn't make you "Good", chosing Good (righteousness) doesn't make you righteous either, know why,

The wages of sin is death

Just because we have the ability to "think" this is good and that is evil, doesn't mean it will save us,

Somebody must "DIE" to pay for sins.

Heb 9:22 and without "shedding of blood" (death) is no remission.

Calvin's "Total depravity" denies that man has the ability to recognize "Good/evil", or to chose between the two, but this ability that Calvin denies is the very thing God holds man accountable for, Chosing the Evil rather than the Good.

Chosing the Good won't save, people around the world have "faith in God" and attempt to do/follow good, but it's not the "GOD" who died to pay the wages of their sins, so even believing/obeying won't save unless it's the "right God".

Ro 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

"one sin" and you're "depraved" from God, but not so "totally depraved" you can't recognize "good/evil", Israel has a zeal for serving God and "without the spirit".

 

"...if any man opens the door..."

 

Here's the outline to a recent sermon that I did. It does more than just answer your question about whether or not justification or righteousness is a one time event or a process. (Luke 1:6 tells us that Zechariah and Elizabeth were just or righteous because they walked in the commandments and ordinances of the Lord; This is works and it's not a one time event.)

Righteousness or justification is a process; it’s achieved by works; it’s not something that believers have automatically.

[Hebrews 1:8-12] I want to center our thoughts this morning on verse 9 and in particular the first part of this verse, where it says, “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity…” The word “iniquity” is lawlessness. Lawlessness means simply that you can live like you want and not worry about prosecution, retribution, or consequences.

[Hebrews 10:26-31] “We” includes the author and those to whom he is writing. This warning is not to unsaved people, but it is to saved who have been weaned from the milk of the Word.

“Sin”: present, active, plural, participle. The present tense indicates that this sin is actively practiced in the present; it’s ongoing action; it’s durative.

“Willfully”: The willful sin is a sin that one believes is the right thing to do and that he has the right to do. The willful sin is sin (or sins) practiced by those who are lawless!

Hebrews 1:9 – The Lord loves righteousness.

Matthew 5:10 – We will be persecuted for righteousness; has to do with the Kingdom.

Matthew 5:20 – Emphasis is on entering the Kingdom, not spiritual salvation.

1 Timothy 6:11 – we have to pursue righteousness! “Follow” is similar to persecute; just like the doctor on “The Fugitive” followed the man.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 – we have to work for it; it’s a crown of righteousness; not salvation.

Matthew 5:6 – the hungry will be satisfied. These two basic elements in a human’s life will drive him to do most any thing. If you’re hungry or thirsty enough, you will steal or drink polluted water.

The Lord loves righteousness! If you live a righteous life, and you do that by living a life that pleases God, the rewards are beyond comprehension. It’s about rewards.

Hebrews 1:9 – The Lord loves righteousness, but he hates lawlessness.

Judges 17:6 – Lawlessness.

Matthew 24:3 – These things concern the end of this age.

Matthew 24:11-12 – Lawlessness; these are saved people who are practicing lawlessness.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 – Lawlessness and apostasy have already started.

Matthew 7:21-23 – First occurrence in the NT of lawlessness. Sermon on the Mount deals with what he loves (righteousness) and hates (lawlessness). These were workers of signs. It’s talking about entering the Kingdom; not salvation. “I never knew you”. I assure you that our God is not dumb; he knows everything; he is omniscient. What he is saying is that I do not recognize you because of your lawless behavior. He tells these that work these signs to depart; not to the lake of fire. These people are not lost. Satan knows that a house divided will not stand. Satan is not casting out Satan; not dividing his house. These people are saved people, and they are doing something that God does not want them to do, and God allows it to happen.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 – Signs stop; there were signs at one time (Hebrews 2:3-4; Mark 16:20)

1 Corinthians 13:11 – Signs are child’s play!

Romans 6:19 – You can become addicted to lawlessness.

James 2:24 – We need to become addicted to righteousness. We need to be pursuing righteousness, which is of faith. We need to do something; this is works; this is a process. We need to be justified; we have to pursue righteousness. Faith in and of itself does not make us righteous or justified. Righteousness is achieved through works. We don’t achieve that through being addicted to lawlessness.

Titus 2:14 – It may seem hopeless, but we are redeemed from that addiction to lawlessness!

Romans 6:22-23 – We need to be addicted to righteousness. “Being made free from the sin”. There is the definite article “the” before sin in the Greek. Because of the definite article “the” before the word “sin”, and sin being singular in number, it is the sin of lawlessness because of the context and also because of 1 John 3:4.

1 John 3:4 – (Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law; CLV - Everyone *who is doing [the] *sin is doing *lawlessness also, and [the] *sin is *lawlessness.)

(Romans 6:22-23 – “And become servants to God, ye have your fruits unto holiness, and the end agelasting life [or life for the coming kingdom]. For the wages of the sin (lawlessness) is death, but the gift of God is life [in the coming Kingdom] through Jesus Christ our Lord”.) The death in this verse is the loss of life in the Kingdom or being told to depart from me ye that work lawlessness. We can have life for the Kingdom age. That is what agelasting [eternal] life is all about. It’s about ruling and reigning with Christ, not spiritual salvation; this is talking about works.

Matthew 13:41 – The Lawless shall be removed; “they shall gather out of his Kingdom”

Romans 5:21 – In order to be righteous in order to have life in the coming age, grace must reign in our lives. Lawlessness has reigned unto death (thanatos).

2 Timothy 2:22 – “Flee also youthful lust”. When we were a youth, in 1 Corinthians 13, we were pursuing sign gifts and experiences. We have been redeemed from that. When you continue in the experiences provided by the sign gifts, you have abandoned faith; you are not pleasing the Lord.

I want to live by faith. I want to love the righteousness which of faith, and I want to hate lawlessness. If I don’t, I will become addicted. If you don’t love righteousness and hate lawlessness, you will become addicted as well.

If you're interested, here's a link to another sermon on justification (and how it relates to baptism). You can open it here and download the pdf or the mp3: Justification

 

I'm REALLY glad I don't have anything to do with your church. Not only have you got sanctification confused with justification and righteousness, you believe you achieve righteousness through works, which is so unbiblical I hardly know where to start. But here's a good place...

Works are an expression of true faith, not a means to righteousness.

 

what in the world are you doing posting in a Baptist only section? The doctrine that justification is a process is a Roman Catholic doctrine.

The Roman Catholic site New Advent says:
"A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the transforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God. Considered as an act (actus justificationis), justification is the work of God alone, presupposing, however, on the part of the adult the process of justification and the cooperation of his free will with God's preventing and helping grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans)."

blessings,
Ken

 

Then you're going to argue with plenty of Scriptures.

And faith without works is dead, in and of itself. It dwells alone. Condition of the third class with ean and mē and the present active subjunctive of echō, "if it keep on not having works".

Works are to be involved.

Walking in the commandments of God is talking about works.

But, let's look at a verse you posted: Romans 4:2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Should be literally, "out of works". In speaking of the relation of works to justification, Paul never uses διά (by or through), but ἐκ (out of). Works were regarded by the Jew as the way to earn salvation, which we know is wrong. It has nothing to do with earning spiritual salvation.

The statement "justified by works" is assumed as true for the sake of argument, though is untrue in reality. The rabbis had a doctrine of the merits of Abraham who had a superfluity of credits to pass on to the Jews, and you can see this reflected in Luke 3:8. (Almost Catholic.)

"But not towards God." Abraham deserved all the respect directed toward him from men, but his relation to God was a different matter. In that respect, he had no grounds for boasting whatsoever.

Neither do we have grounds of boasting toward God, but we are still to be righteous and not lawless.

I have a question for you: If we are made righteous upon salvation, why then does God command us to be righteous?

 

Amen to that. I almost said the same thing.

 

Wheee!, finally, you and I agree on something.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches:

for without me ye can do nothing.

No Jesus, No works.

 

First, show me where it says God commands us to be righteous by works.

Second, your exegesis is a contrived mess and ignores the following:

WHO justifies the ungodly?

WHO does the justifying?

This is such a basic, foundational doctrine I can't imagine why we're even discussing it on a Baptist board. I can only suggest you convert to Catholicism and preach at that pulpit, where you'll be at home with your views. I for one, will bow out, and let you have the last word.

 

Wheee!, finally, you and I agree on something.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches:

for without me ye can do nothing.

No Jesus, No works. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, we agree on something. I'm going to print this out and frame it.

 

I assume you are pro-life. Why are you posting on a Baptist message forum? That's clearly a Catholic doctrine. Repent of this obviously evil Catholic doctrine now!

Now, back to Scriptural reality: Romans 8:30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Those who are called are called from among the saved. Out of those who are called, some are called out or elect.

I have posted many, many verses that show that we are justified by our works, our works are made acceptable by grace, and we are justified (made righteous) in the present tense.

Our spiritual salvation is punctiliar and is not ongoing action, which the present tense implies.

If you refuse to see, so be it. The Bible says a few things about those who have their eyes closed, and Matthew 13:15 says they have shut them themselves.

 

When we are justified we are positionally righteous. II Cor. 5:21. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us; it is not our own. Sanctification is a lifelong process that begins at justification. In sanctification, we are progressively transformed to become practically righteous (though it is still by the grace of God that any of us progress in our sanctification). So the command to be righteous is related to our sanctification or growth. Although, none of us will ever attain perfection in this life, which is why we always need Christ's righteousness to cover us, which happened at our justification.

 

Hope,

You've thrown the pro-life Catholic comparison out before, but it's just not same as what we are discussing here. Our view on abortion, as important as it may be, is not what saves us.

But justification by grace through faith is of ultimate importance, and it is the primary reason why the Protestant Reformation ignited in the 16th century. There were several issues the Reformers protested, but this one issue they saw as the most important, non-negotiable one of them all. So it really is not in the same league as pro-life views. All kinds of aberrant religions are pro-life - example: Islam. It's just not relevant to the topic at hand.

 

First of all, "just" and "righteous" are the same thing.

Second of all, it is an applicable comparison. Someone doesn't like what the Bible says, and they say, "Oh, that's too Catholic (JW, whatever)", as if any doctrine that the Catholic church teaches is automatically wrong.

Secondly, from your misquote of Scripture (justification by grace through faith) shows why so many people look at Scripture incorrectly.

The Catholics teach, from my understanding, that salvation is a process, and they also confuse justification with salvation.

Only difference is, one side looks at salvation as an event (which it is), therefore, justification is an event (which it is not). The other side looks at justification as a process, therefore salvation is a process.

You are saved by "believe" (punctiliar), but you have to live by "faith" (ongoing action); you are justified by your faith, and if your faith is not attended by works, your faith is dead.

 

Hope,

I find yours and James Newman and J. Jump's theology so confusing. In fact, I find it more confusing than disagreeable (though I do find it to be that as well). Do you recommend any theology books or studies that amply describe your beliefs? Can you post some titles for us to gander at? Thanks.

 

Andy I sent you a PM with some reference material and I would be more than happy to visit with you directly via instant message or email if you would like. Feel free to drop me a line anytime - just check my profile page for contact info.

 

And faith without works is dead, in and of itself. It dwells alone. Condition of the third class with ean and mē and the present active subjunctive of echō, "if it keep on not having works".

Works are to be involved.

Walking in the commandments of God is talking about works.

But, let's look at a verse you posted: Romans 4:2: For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Should be literally, "out of works". In speaking of the relation of works to justification, Paul never uses διά (by or through), but ἐκ (out of). Works were regarded by the Jew as the way to earn salvation, which we know is wrong. It has nothing to do with earning spiritual salvation.

The statement "justified by works" is assumed as true for the sake of argument, though is untrue in reality. The rabbis had a doctrine of the merits of Abraham who had a superfluity of credits to pass on to the Jews, and you can see this reflected in Luke 3:8. (Almost Catholic.)

"But not towards God." Abraham deserved all the respect directed toward him from men, but his relation to God was a different matter. In that respect, he had no grounds for boasting whatsoever.

Neither do we have grounds of boasting toward God, but we are still to be righteous and not lawless.

I have a question for you: If we are made righteous upon salvation, why then does God command us to be righteous? </font>[/QUOTE]the Protestant definition of justification by faith alone... the Baptist definition of justification by faith alone, does not deny that we are to be righteous even after we have been justified. In fact, it is only after having been justified that the Christian is able to do righteous works. Prior to that justification, any "works" we do are as accounted as filthy rags. Isa 64:6 NASB For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
Paul considered all his so-called righteous deeds, prior to his having been justified by faith in Christ alone, to be nothing more than a pile of dung.

So to continue to answer your question, the Christian is to do good works for these were the works prepared for them to do before the foundation of the world. Eph 2:10 NASB For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Paul's argument through Romans is that after having proven that all, Jews and Gentiles alike, are under condemnation, that no one seeks God and all have fallen short of the glory of God, proceeds to say that the believer is justified by faith alone, not of works. Then, having been justified, we are to be what we are, that is, in chapters 6 and 7 he tells us that we are no longer slaves to sin, that our justification has freed us so that we can now obey God.

blessings,
Ken