The U In The TULIP Doctrine

1 Cor. 8:2...nuf' said.

 

Nelson:
Wow, what a cogent response!!!! I guess that means you have no answers to the questions asked of you?

[ March 04, 2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

A person can accept Christ and not understand the things of God. and in fact most in that stage dont, but then when they receive him, then they begin to gain the spiritual discernment described, so this cannot be used to prove the "they must be regenerated first in order to believe" theory (which would actually render faith moot).

What does this have to do with choice of salvation. Your supposed non-elect who have no free will to believe (because they are not "sustained", right?) still exist.

Once again, the Calvinist assumes the non-Calvinist is just trying/"refusing to give up" being "the captain of his ship". Some nominals may be that way, but this assertion is made up as a straw man to prove Calvinism. The reason most of us dispute Calvinism is because of it's implications regarding the nature of God in respect to the non-elect. That is the issue, not anyone saving themselves. Romans 9, as it has been proven is not even talking about some people made to be destroyed in Hell, so we are not "ignoring" it.

But to be consistent, if what you are saying is true about people thinking they are saving themselves, then that is not saving faith, and they are in more than error, they are still lost in their sins!

 

You are right in the sense that a person may not understand the more doctrinal things of God, but you still haven't answered the question. What makes some "accept" salvation and others, with the same offer, according to you, not "accept." Was it because you were superior, or you had something to boast about, or you read the bible, or you were just more holy and the other person lacked all those things? Of course not!!!
If God does not give the supernatural gift of Regeneration, you would not only not understand ANYTHING about God, you would be totally unable, of yourself, to even WANT to "accept" God
Regeneration would make faith moot? What!!!! Regeneration, being born again, is where you receive the free GIFT of faith. Where do you find that being born again renders Justification by faith moot!!! When you are justified your whole standing with Gods changes. You go from being a condemned criminal (sinner) being a declared a child of God. It is a one time change of status. Then the righteousness of Christ is imputed to you. First regeneration, then justification. Faith most certainly is not made moot. It is GIVEN to you as a free gift.
You ask what God sustaining us has to do with salvation? I was talking more about the sheer nonsense of talking about free-will. Without God, you couldn't even breath or live. No captain of your ship, etc here. God turns his head (so to speak) and you go out of existence, no matter what you will or don't will.
Excuse me!!! So you are saying that you can't have saving faith unless you save yourself? Wrong, if that's what you mean. You do NOT save yourself, and you do not believe savingly, unless you have been regenerated, and then GIVEN the gift of faith. Remember, Paul says that faith is a free gift, so that you can't boast. If all your friends did not accepet Jesus even tho they had the offer given to them, and you did "accept" Jesus, then you most certainly would have something to BOAST about.
I'm not speaking of you personally now, because I's sure you are a brother in Christ, but I'm finding this whole endeavor of trying to explain the DOCTRINES of the bible ending up to be an execise in futility. It's probably my fault but I giving up trying.
James2

 

Agreed.

I'm reminded alot about The Truman Show movie and how Truman (as far as I understood the movie) rebelled against the minutely controlled and preordained life.

Eric has hit the main problem with Calvinism/Reformed belief in a nutshell.

 

The problem here though is that you are still drawing invalid implications. You have decided what those implications are without benefit of biblical reasoning. You appear to continue to accept what Scripture says about the nature of God. You are still asserting your mind as superior to revelation. When Scripture speaks, we should let it say what it does.

 

With all due respect, allow my take here:

1. Larry is setting up Calvinistic/Reformed teachings as an assumed an infallible truth, far above criticism, in much the same way that Jehovah Witnesses view their teachings.
2. Larry's method of Biblical reasoning is determined by and confined to the Calvinistic tradition.
3. Larry asserts Calvinistic/Reformed tradition as "superior to revelation."
4. As far as what Scriptures "says," from my vantage point, it obviously does not say "Calvinism" or "Reformed."

What would have been proper for Larry to do is offer comments regarding my comparison of Calvinism with The Truman Show and leave it at that rather than - as usual - make baseless criticism on my approach to the Bible with the implication that I am arrogant.

If he saw me drawing erroneous conclusions, he should state what they are and how they are invalid.

If he felt I lacked correct "biblical reasoning," he should point specifically where and how.

If he concludes that I display an attitude of "mind as superior to revelation," he should show where and how.

If he feels I am not taking Scripture for what it says, again, show specifically where and how.

An objection to a post should not be answered so vaguely and so far off the specific topic of discussion.

From this point on, I will only answer Larry's post if it is directly related to the subject of discussion. Any further comments that veer off and are vague or merely discuss my person will be ignored.

 

That is just a philosophical question that is not even addressed in scripture (why one chooses one way compared to another). The Bible tells us to give the Gospel to all, and that's it. Some will choose, others won't. Nothing about "those who don't were decreed to be lost". If you want to talk about someone being "more holy", isn't the person who was eternally decreed to be saved not not really lost to begin with, and therefore better than those created to die in their sins? (even though it is claimed "not because of anything in themselves)
In connection with this;

Here is another common error. Faith is not the gift, in Col.2:8, it is the MEANS. Salvation is the gift received by grace THROUGH faith. But if regeneration was independant of faith, it would be moot, because the person wouldn't be excercising faith, he would just be reprogrammed like a computer, and faith wouldn't be saving, because one is already saved before he "receives" it.
Also, I never said one saves one's self. I was actually rejecting the charge that receiving an offer of salvation was saving one's self.

I've never found that anything to boast about. I was another sinner just like everyone else, yet now I've found how to receive eternal life. The point is not that I found it, but that my mission is to see to it that others find it as well. Here's something that just dawned on me. If all we are doing is just trying to boast and be better than the lost, then why would we be so concerned about the idea of them having no chance to escape Hell. (We would be happy that God chose US over those poor dogs). This is the issue, not the straw man of some supposed "boasting".

 

With all due respect, in no place can it be shown where I have personally attacked anyone on this post, including Larry.

Larry's continued accusations are baseless. Anyone reviewing our past exchanges will find that all my objections have been with respect to what has been said, and nowhere do I attack character either explicitly or implicitly.

If I have criticized someone's character, a quote should be provided as evidence, otherwise, it is baseless.

In the Christian community, the difficult task of showing charity is like a pendulum.

P.S. I know what you mean by Jim Carey movies being obnoxious but this one is an exception. It is cleanly made and, believe it or not, is very thought provoking and challanging. Try it on video and if you do see it, you can Email your thoughts on it to me.

P.P.S. If you hate the movie, since it was on my advise, I'll transfer funds to your Swiss bank account to refund your movie rental expenses. Can't lose!

[ March 06, 2002, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

Eric:
I ask a simple, plain question and the best you can do is say it is philosophical? Please!!!! The free offer of the gospel is to made to everyone. Some accept and others don't. I ask you why YOU accepted and others, with the same offer did not. You reply, because, some choose and some don't.
This is going nowhere. The REASON you accepted and the others did not is because God REGENERATED you, then you were given saving faith, then you believed. Ordained, then believed. Act. 13:48. Scripture after scripture. It is hopeless.
Can't people boast you say, because they were chosen before the foundation of the world for salvation? No, they can't. Boast about what? There salvation had NOTHING to do with them. I thank God every day for showing His mercy to me. If it had been up to be to "accept" Jesus I would be headed to hell.
Eric, I know you are sincere, saved, etc. but sit down, set aside the concept that man can save himself, which would make Christianity no different than any other religion of the world, and read prayfully read John 10, Romans 9 and Eph. chapter 1 and 2. If you still believe, after reading those texts of scripture that man is the one who decides to "accept" salvation or reject it, so be it. I can't say anymore. I leave it up to the Holy Spirit to show you.

You "found how to receive salvation" and now you have a mission to show others how to "find it." Same problem, different words. How did you receive it or find it and the others did not. Just because I suppose?
No more posting for me. I've found out after almost 500 posts that is is a complete waste of time. No matter how many scriptures quoted, no matter what, people will cling to their ways. So you believe that man saves, and I will believe that God saves.
Have a great day
James2

[ March 06, 2002, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

In other words, such a question has no meaning except to try to prove a preconceived interpretation of scripture. I don't think I am any better than anyone and I do believe God reached out to me in a way He may have not reached out to others to open my mind to His truth, but to say that all the others were decreed to continue in darkness unto destruction is adding way too much to the scripture.

And you continue to use the "man saving himself" cliche even though that has been denied as a phony straw man.
The three passages you mentioned have been discussed elsewhere. We do not believe they teach your position as clearly as you think they do, and Romans 9 is the most glaring example of changing the context from a group to individuals. The other two passages as well can be understood the same way, and even if you don't agree, you should acknowledge that it is a possible meaning and stop accusing people of ignoring the passages and wanting to believe that man saves himself.

 

No one that I ever have heard of believes than any person can save themselves as far as eternal salvation. No one has anything to bring to God but his or her sins. Believing and trusing in Jesus decrees our pardon in His eyes. There is not one cintilla of good in a person that commends them to Almighty God.

God told Isaiah to pen these words, 'Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth.'
The Lord only requires of us to look at Him and believe and or trust in Him. By doing this a person has not contributed to his or her salvation. God does the saving work in our hearts. We all know that without faith it is impossible to please God. We are told by the author of the Hebrew epistle that 'anyone coming to God must believe that He is, and that He is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him' [Heb. 11:6]. There is no strong armed irresistible grace here. Jesus is telling sinners that it is their responsibility to BELIEVE in His saving benefits procurred at the Cross, and that sinners are strongly admonished to search for Him with all their ability.

Humankind has intelligence, which is God given, and a freedom of choice to receive the Son or to ignore the grace so richly offered to everyone. [I John 2:2]

I heard Mr. Camping a few days ago trying to defend Irressistible Grace and He said when God wants you He will bring you in 'even if you are kicking and flogging.' His unbiblical argument does not dovetail with the verses in this next paragraph.

The Israelites in Acts 7:51 apparently were successful in flaunting their human will against Almighty God. Also, note [John 5:40 & Isaiah 48:4].

Respectfully,

Ray

 

Tyndale1946,

You posed an excellent question.

God's plan by way of the former covenant {Abrahamic & Mosaic} had only a limited success because of the hardness of the Israelite's hearts. In Jeremiah 31:31-34 the prophet is foretelling of ‘a new covenant' that He is going to make with the Israelite nation. During the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants God wrote the Commandments in stone and they had to obey them or else. Under this future ‘new covenant' He tell the Israelites that He is going to ‘put the law in their hearts . . . ' This spoken of ‘new covenant' has not yet been introduced. You might ask how do you know? The reason is because the Israelites 99% of them are very antagonistic to you if you try to witness to them about personal salvation through Jesus.

Verse 34 of Jeremiah 31 tells us of a day {in the future} when it will not be necessary to teach anyone or to say, ‘do you know the Lord' because all will know Him for the least to the greatest, and Christ will forgive them their sins and those violations of His Law will be remembered no longer.

Here is a truth that I did not know until I was working on my dissertation.

In Hebrews 8 you will find not only the Old Covenant and the New Covenant that we are living under since the Cross, but a future covenant that God is going to make with His people during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth.

Watch this very carefully. In Hebrews 8:7 God speaks of His ‘first covenant;' I think you will heartily agree with me that this was the Abrahamic Covenant.

In verse 7 also--He refers to a ‘second covenant.' I am rather sure that you will concur with me that this was the Covenant of Grace. This covenant was instituted from the Cross on until this present day. This destroys the ‘one O.T. & N.T. church theory.' The Old Covenant was ineffectual with regard to the Israelites, so God instituted another covenant, ‘established on better promises.'

Now watch this very closely and I would like if you would research this for yourself.

Now God speaking through the writer of the Book of Hebrews says, in effect, I will find fault with both of these covenants. In Biblical words, ‘For finding fault with THEM . . . ' The Old Covenant and the New Covenant of grace one day will be terminated, because God is saying that these covenants will have served His sovereign purpose.

Remember, He has told us that at a future time He will have found fault with THEM. Is this the end of His covenant making? No. Now He is going to make a covenant with the Israelites again.
The reason we know that it will be made with Israel predominately, is because He says in verse 8 ‘Behold, in those days, saith the Lord, I will make a new covenant with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah.' Now comes in your verses from Jeremiah 31:31-34. You will clearly note that the writer of Hebrews uses the same words as the Prophet Jeremiah. This covenant during the Kingdom Age {1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth} will by then be in force. In this future time no one will have to teach his neighbor the things of the Lord, neither will they have to say, ‘Do you know the Lord.' [Romans 11:26] The Deliverer will be the Messiah who will have returned to earth at His Second Coming. [11:26] Christ will Rule in Majesty and will have the Israelites living well pleasing unto Him at last. [Zechariah 14:17]. No time in human history has Christ ever ruled as Sovereign from the city of Jerusalem; in the Kingdom Age this will have been a fulfillment of prophecy.

There are three covenants in Hebrews chapter eight.

Let me know what emerges from your research.

I almost forgot your two part question. The human will that is active in the reception of Christ's salvation takes place when anyone believes and trusts in Him as their only hope of everlasting life. That's why we preach; for a response to Christ's call to the covenant of grace.

Respectfully,

Ray