Why are there so many Denominations?!?!

Some have departed the faith. This started in the early church during the time of the apostles. It continues to this day. The problem is that some are willing to accept those who do not agree with biblical doctrine and they do so in express violation of God's word (Rom 16; Jude; 2 Peter; etc).

When Paul says that only the doctrine of Christ matters, that is extremely simplistic. All truth matters because it is all God's truth. We can differ on things that are not clearly revealed. We cannot differ on things that are clearly revealed. Doctrine and truth matter because they come from God. We do not have the authority to say that it doesn't matter.

In the end, the historical arguments need to be put aside. They are helpful in showing what people believed. They are not helpful in showing what is true. Scripture is the determiner of truth.

 

Some have departed the faith. This started in the early church during the time of the apostles. It continues to this day. The problem is that some are willing to accept those who do not agree with biblical doctrine and they do so in express violation of God's word (Rom 16; Jude; 2 Peter; etc).

When Paul says that only the doctrine of Christ matters, that is extremely simplistic. All truth matters because it is all God's truth. We can differ on things that are not clearly revealed. We cannot differ on things that are clearly revealed. Doctrine and truth matter because they come from God. We do not have the authority to say that it doesn't matter.

In the end, the historical arguments need to be put aside. They are helpful in showing what people believed. They are not helpful in showing what is true. Scripture is the determiner of truth. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Pastor Larry,

I'm not trying to argue, so please do not take this wrong, but I don't understand how one comes to the conclusion that the bible is the only determiner of truth when so many people differ on what it means. If it was the determiner of truth, wouldn't we all understand it the same?

Also, Scripture does not say that it's the determiner of truth. It says that the Church of the Living God is the Pillar and Ground of Truth...

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


According to Scripture, the Church of the Living God is the pillar and ground of Truth.


2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

How do we know which traditions were taught by word if we toss asside the historical writings that hold the traditions taught to the first Christians by the Apostles?


Matthew 18:16-17
But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Christ tells us to tell the Church if we have a disagreement on something.


2 Timothy 3:14
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];


Paul tells us to remain faithful because from whom we learned it.


Acts 8:31
And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The Scriptures show us that to understand them, we must have someone guide us. How do we know who should guide us if we are unsure of if the teachings date back to 33 AD?


God Bless,
Sirach

 

No, not necessarily. Some people won't submit their minds to it. Some people will intentionally distort it. Some just won't care. Some will use it for financial gain. Many of these references are found in the NT itself, prophesying this very thing.

That means it is the defender and propogator of the truth. The church is built on the truth. The truth defends and propogates it. Without the truth, you have no church.

You answered your own question ... the ones taught by the word. "Tradition" there is not what is sometimes thought of. Tradition is the teachings of the word of God through the apostles. The church today has the same basis as the church of 1500 years ago ... the apostolic teaching.

Matthew 18 is in the context of church discipline for immoral living or doctrinal heresy.

And why did you quit??? The next verse says that from a child, you have known the "holy Scriptures which are able to make you wise unto salvation." So Paul was affirming the authority of Scripture.

No, Acts 8 refers to an unbeliever who doesn't understand what the Scriptures say. With study he could have found out. But when Philip came along, he asked him. But again, note what the seat of authority was in ACts 8. The man wanted to understand Scripture. Scripture is the seat of truth, not the church. The church is to defend the truth and to teach the truth.

 

Today's Bible reading passage is from Romans 14:1 and following:

We are specifically enjoined by Paul here to actually tolerate people in our church with divergent opinions. Even with people who worship on different days!

This is a principle Paul is trying to bang into our heads - get along, don't divide the body! Accept each other's divergent viewpoints!

On the other hand, consider the teachings from 2 John:

We do not extend such acceptance to denial of who Jesus is. That is GOING TO FAR!

 

CHAP. 3 THE PRIESTHOOD


1 Pet 2:5-9 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

According to the Apostle Peter, those who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, are a royal, and a holy priesthood. Each member of the body of Christ, is an ambassador for Christ. Using whatever gifts of the Spirit that God gives them to bring people to a knowledge of God by introducing them to His Son, who is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:15). Unlike the priests of the old covenant who stood as a type of Christ, mediating if you will, between humanity and God, new covenant believers introduce the world to the one and only true mediator between man and God. The litreral priesthood of the old covenant has been abolished by Christ in favor of the spiritual priesthood of the new covenant.

The old covnenant believer was dependent upon a literal human being and place to receive forgiveness of sins. The new covenant believer however, after being introduced to the Lord Jesus Christ, our high priest who ever liveth to intercede for us, can recieve forgiveness for sins at any time, and in any place ( Jn 4: 19-24). The new covenant believer has no need for a human go between, but has been given direct access to the throne of God in and through the ministration of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Each believer may now come boldly before the throne of God with their prayers, and confessions, entreating the mercies of our loving God. This is among the most preciouse promises of the new testament scriptures.

Heb 4:15-16 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Heb 7:25-27 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

The Lord Jesus Christ came to earth, and became one of us, so that we could each have a close and personal relationship with him and his Father in heaven. The Devil has ever sought to seperate humanity from God. With the cooperation of our first parents he succeeded in the garden. Ever since, God has been seeking to bring us back, and Satan has been seeking to keep us apart. However, since the Son of God became one of us, there is nothing that can keep us from the love of God, save our own choice to be seperate.

Rom 8:38-39 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the habit of the church of Rome, putting the literal, in the place of the spiritual, she has destroyed the intimacy which God intended between Himself, and his followers. The church of Rome has established a literal priesthood upon which her people are dependent for the forgiveness of their sins. Her adherents are required to confess their sins to their priest that he might grant them God's forgiveness. Again, by literalizing a spiritual truth, the church of Rome seperates it's adherents from God, and establishes itself in a position of authority over all who accept her dogmas. What can be more intimate than asking for, and receiving forgiveness from a loved one? Even this is denied those who accept the intercession of Rome.

Heb 10:4-22 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Why would anyone who has direct access to the throne of God, and an invitation from God himself to come their when ever they need to, seek intercession from another sinful, and fallible human being. Jesus Christ is our high priest. By his blood we may all enter in through the veil, into the holiest, where Christ ever liveth to make intercession for us. This was accomplished through his flesh, verse 20. His flesh was our flesh, he became one of us, so that we could enter into the holiest and have direct access to the throne of God. We no longer need anyone between us and God. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. He presented his body a living sacrifice unto God, that we might be able to follow in his footsteps, seeing that his body, or flesh, was our body, or flesh.

The primary role of the priesthood during the old covenant was to afficiate the sacrifice. This role has been taken from humanity, and established by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who was our sacrifice, and is our high priest. The sacrifice of the new covenant believer is clearly pointed out by the Apostle Paul.

Rom 12:1-2 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Christ has prepared the way, so that we may give our own selves as living and holy sacrifices unto God. This is our spiritual service of worship in the new covenant. These things Christ has accomplished by becoming one of us. Now, what person can officiate between the individual and God, when the individual has been granted by the grace of God, the power to present themselves directly to God as a living and holy sacrifice. This is what has been granted to all through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Christ has established a close and personal relationship with each and every individual which cares to accept this relationship. There is no need for the priesthood of the church of Rome. In fact, any man that presumes to put himself between anyone else, and God, has put themselves in the place of God.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If by faith, I have died with Christ, I am freed from my sin. I personally have been empowered to do this thing by faith, and so has anyone else who cares to accept it. How says the church of Rome that I need a priest, that is, another sinful human being to afficiate between me and God? Why would the church of Rome nullify the grace of God? Why does she wish to take this gift away from humanity, which was given at such infinite cost? The answer is clear, she seeks power over the world that has not been granted her from God. She seeks to be in the place of God. This is the original sin of Satan himself (Isa. 14: 12-15). These things will be discussed in greater detail, in following chapters.

The setting up of a literal priesthood by the church of Rome, seperates those who believe her from their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the true high priest of the new covenant. As always, it establishes her in a position of authority between man and God over all that listen to her. This is the true nature of the church of Rome. Her dogmas serve the purpose of seperating humanity from their God, and only hope of salvation. All this she does, while claiming to be the one and only original church of Christ on earth. She is the church which Satan himself has set up to supplant the true church of Christ, and seperate humanity from their God.

Rev 13:2 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

John 8:31-32 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


John 8:42-47 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


John 14:6-7 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


John 14:15-21 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.


John 15:26-27 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


John 16:13-14 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


John 17:16-21 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Eph 6:13-17 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:


II Th 2:8-13 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


2 Tim 3:1-7 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Tim 4:3-4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


I Jn 1:6-10 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


I Jn 2:3-5 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


I Jn 3:18-24 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

How can we come more "boldly" to the throne of God anymore today than then? Where does the Bible teach this? Mankind has always been able to pray to God, and that's what I learn from the Bible, New Testament and Old. Its all the same. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses, He did not change the way we pray. What on earth are you talking about? and I say that not as a real question but incredulously. I repeat, mankind has ALWAYS been able to pray to God in the same way as now. Its called kneeling down, bowing one's head, and saying the words, and feeling the Spirit. They had the Spirit in the Old Testament too.

I believe you misunderstand the role of the ancient prophets. They were not "go-betweens" but the mouthpiece of God. There is need for that today. Ephesians 4 is New Testament of this fact, where it is stated:
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

There is no unity yet. Where are these apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for perfecting of the saints? Is it not needed to bring people to unity, to have a spokesperson? Obviously, on this forum, and everywhere else I see, we have differing opinions on what is what and how it is. You will come back soon and disagree with me, you'll see. Then you will be proving my point, which is, we are not in unity.

But God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He has not changed how we come to worship Him. It is through devotion, through prayer, through faith, as it has always been. It is not through a "go-between" as it has always been direct to God, and personal.

This is not to say that there was not a set of strict rules and observances in the Law of Moses, which is now fulfilled in Christ, for it all pointed to Christ, but is to say that the REAL worship was and always has been, personal. Private. Like Daniel did when he prayed and got thrown into a den of lions. A personal form of worship that has always been so.

This "new" method you speak of, what is that? It has always been so.

 

But in Romans 16:17-18, Paul says "Don't get along with those who create division by teaching contrary to what you have been taught (i.e., through the apostles)." He does not limit it to the doctrine of Christ as you do. He includes all truth. If someone contradicts the truth, they are not to be tolerated. They are to be corrected once or twice (Titus 3:9-10), and then they are to be rejected, exposed, and separated from.

We can tolerate a diversity of opinions on matters about which the Scripture does not clearly speak. We cannot accept diversity of opinions on matters where it does clearly speak. We are given explicit instructions about how to deal with that.

 

rocky man- “How can we come more "boldly" to the throne of God anymore today than then? Where does the Bible teach this? Mankind has always been able to pray to God, and that's what I learn from the Bible, New Testament and Old. Its all the same. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses, He did not change the way we pray. What on earth are you talking about? and I say that not as a real question but incredulously. I repeat, mankind has ALWAYS been able to pray to God in the same way as now. Its called kneeling down, bowing one's head, and saying the words, and feeling the Spirit. They had the Spirit in the Old Testament too.

I believe you misunderstand the role of the ancient prophets. They were not "go-betweens" but the mouthpiece of God.”

Brother, I never mentioned the prophets, I was speaking of the priests. You are right, to say that people could always pray to God whenever they wanted to. However, you are way off base, in suggesting that there has been no change in the ministration of mercy, and forgiveness, in the transition between the old and new covenants.

As the book of Hebrews clearly points out, Jesus Christ is now the High Priest of all humanity. His qualifications are also pointed out in the book of Hebrews. Namely, that He became one of us, was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. He also became the sacrifice that the animal sacrifices of the old covenant only pointed to.

During the old covenant dispensation, God’s people were instructed to go to the priests with their sacrifices. This is where they confessed their sins, and received forgiveness for the same. They needed the intercession of the priests, who were themselves a type of Christ. Today, anyone who wants forgiveness from God, can ask for it anywhere, any time, and receive the same from God himself. This is because our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is now in heaven where He ever liveth to make intercession for us. These things were made sure, by the life and death, of the man, who was God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

If you do not see this difference, I would suggest that it is simply because you do not want to see it. In any case, you should be taking your argument up with the author of the book of Hebrews, not me. If you read the book of Hebrews, you will understand the changes that I am talking about.

The sanctuary and services of the old covenant, pointed ahead to Christ. Our faith today, is built upon the established fact of Christ’s life, death, and resurrection. There have been definite changes between these, old, and new covenants.

Heb 2:9-10 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


Heb 2:14-18 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Heb 4:12-16 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Heb 5:1-10 1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


Heb 7:11-28 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


Heb 8:1-13 1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

Why so many denominations? Because denominations are based upon private interpretation of the Scriptures which is forbidden according to the Scriptures. Do not interpretations belong to God?

 

Denominations are not based on private interpretations (which the Bible doesn't address ... 2 Peter 1 is talking about the origin of Scripture ... It is not from man's private interpretation but from the HOly Spirit bearing them along).

Denominations are based on different beliefs, which are very public, not private.

Interpretation does not belong to God. It is a part of being diligent with the word of God. He has given us his word. He expects us to study it and learn about him in it.

 

Larry,

Yes, the beliefs are public. The beliefs vary because every denomination interprets scriptures differently. You contradict the Word of God when you say interpretation does not belong to God. Who has authority to teach us the spiritual meaning of the Word other than the Spirit of Truth? See 1Jn. 2:27. God taught the disciples the words he spoke in parables. No man could interpret the parables using human wisdom. He continues to teach today. Paul was taught by God, not man.

 

I don't know why, nobody seems to want to accept the scriptures answer to the question. Why are there so many different denominations?

The bible answers-

2 Tim 3:1-7 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Tim 4:3-4 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I think that should pretty much cover it.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

I can see how the Bible teaches that Jesus was a High Priest after the order of Melchisedek, but that is not to say that He is the only one.

I think it fascinating that these teachings are coming from one who has a high and holy calling like Paul. He was a High Priest too, and if him, the others also. They lived AFTER Christ was gone from them, the Priesthood continued, and here is the scripture:

Hebrews 3:1 WHEREFORE, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

If Jesus was an Apostle, and Paul was an Apostle, they held the same Priesthood. It continued after Christ was gone from them. You are suggesting that it is now gone? Where in the Bible does it teach this? The Apostles were killed, but where is the word that states it is all completed in Jesus' ministry? And if it were so, how could Paul or any other Apostle have any authority to be called such, or to perform their holy ministry, if they had no authority because it was all wrapped up in Christ?

You see, I believe the Bible, that Christ delegated His Priesthood and gave some Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Evangelists, Teachers, etc. as taught in Ephesians 4. Paul was one of the more prolific Apostles, but John too with Revelation. What a powerful revelation that is. And it came decades after Christ had gone from them.

What would the Church be like today if the Apostles had not been killed and executed by non-believers?

 

1 Cor 12:28 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Brother, if you will take note, there is no mention of priests in the above scripture. In the new covenant, the office of the priesthood has been delegated to the entire church as a whole. This is because believers have no need for a mediator between them and God. Christ is the mediator of all them that believe, and each one of them has direct access to the throne of God through Him. The church as a whole is the priesthood of God. The individual members are to bring souls to Christ, that they might be introduced to the one who alone has, and does make atonement for them.


1 Pet 2:5 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1 Pet 2:9 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

2 Cor 5:17-21 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


The church as a whole has become a royal priesthood. We have been given the ministry of reconciliation. We are the mediators between God and humanity. That is to say, that God will use us, through the indwelling power of His Holy Spirit, to lift up Christ in our lives, that all may be drawn to Him. We are to offer up spiritual sacrifices to the Lord, which is again what the job of the priest was in the old covenant. Paul has something to say about this in the book of Romans, along with another list of the gifts of the body of Christ. As was the case with the opening scripture of this message, there is no mention of the gift of being a priest for the body of Christ.

Rom 12:1-8 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Again, every Christian is a part of the royal priesthood of the body of Christ. Christ Himself being the High Priest, and only mediator between the believer and God. There is only one mediator between man and God, that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Any individual, or institution, that would set itself up in His place, through practice, or doctrine, would be, and is antichrist. Christ alone can officiate between the believer and God the Father. This position is hands off for all of humanity. It is a part of the personal and intimate relationship between the believer and Christ, to present themselves as a living , and holy sacrifice unto the Lord. Christ alone, who Himself presented His body ( which was our body )a living and Holy sacrifice unto the Lord, can accept, and officiate this miraculous process.

Rom 6:3-11 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Tim 2:5-6 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Heb 12:24 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Christ is THE mediator between humanity and God.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Kamoroso,

I agree. 2Timothy pretty much sums up why.

 

All one has to do is read a *few* threads and see what 'we' all consider to by of earth-shaking importance and it should be casual to the most observing obvious as to why we have so many denominations...

 

Moique,
Would you please be kind enough to give us a list of acceptable historical authors. I get a sense of all yours are bad all of mine are good, so if your authors are not on my list they are not acceptable. That being the case and you being the authority on all church history who would be the acceptable authors who are published in english?

 

Correct.

That is simply not true. Paul was taught by God, and as a result, Paul was inspired to write Scripture. Today, we have Scripture. The illuminating and regnerating work of hte Holy Spirit is what enables us to interpret it rightly. But interpretation belongs in the realm of the reader, who must process the information given.

 

Here are some more quotes about the Waldenses. I have found many sources that simply state their beginnings from the time of Peter Waldo. However, it seems clear to me, that the history of these people is not that easily determined. There is no doubt in my mind, that Peter Waldo was preceded by many centuries, by a people with very similar beliefs to his own. No doubt, he himself was even influenced by these people.

THE HISTORY OF WALDENSES AND BIBLICAL TEXTS
by Robert Webb


But let us see what the Waldenses believed, according to their own historian, Jean Leger. Wilkinson, page 32, says:
This noble scholar of Waldensian blood was the apostle of his people in the terrible massacres of 1655, and labored intelligently to preserve their ancient records. His book, the General History of the Evangelical Churches of the Piedmontese Valleys, published in French in 1669, and called "scarce" in 1825, is the prized object of scholarly searchers. It is my good fortune to have that very book before me. Leger, when he calls (Robert) Olivetan's French Bible of 1535 "entire and pure," says: "I say 'pure' because all the ancient exemplars, which formerly were found among the Papists, were full of falsifications, which caused Beza to say in his book on Illustrious Men, in the chapter on the Vaudois, that one must confess it was by means of the Vaudois of the Valleys that France today has the Bible in her own language. This godly man, Olivetan, in the preface of his Bible, recognizes with thanks to God, that since the time of the apostles, or their immediate successors, the torch of the gospel has been lit among the Vaudois (or the dwellers in the Valleys of the Alps, two terms which mean the same), and has never since been extinguished." --Leger, General History of the Vaudois Churches, p. 165.


The method which Allix has pursued, in his History of the Churches of Piedmont, is to show that in the ecclesiastical history of every century, from the fourth century, which he considers a period early enough for the enquirer after apostolical purity of doctrine, there are clear proofs that doctrines, unlike those which the Romish Church holds, and conformable to the belief of the Waldensian and Reformed Churches, were maintained by theologians of the north of Italy down to the period, when the Waldenses first came into notice. Consequently the opinions of the Waldenses were not new to Europe in the eleventh or twelfth centuries, and there is nothing improbable in the tradition, that the Subalpine Church persevered in its integrity in an uninterrupted course from the first preaching of the gospel in the valleys. - Gilly, Waldensian Researches, pp. 118, 119.There are many earlier historians who agree with this view. (Allix, Leger, Gilly, Comba, Nolan). It is held that the pre-Waldensian Christians of northern Italy could not have had doctrines purer than Rome unless their Bible was purer than Rome's; that is, was not of Rome's falsified manuscripts. (Comba, p. 188.)


History does not afford a record of cruelty greater than that manifested by Rome toward the Waldenses. It is impossible to write fully the inspiring history of this persecuted people, whose origin goes back to apostolic days and whose history is ornamented with stories of gripping interest. Rome has obliterated the records. Dr. DeSanctis, many years a Catholic official at Rome, some time official Censor of the Inquisition and later a convert to Protestantism, thus reports the conversation of a Waldensian scholar as he points out to others the ruins of Palatine Hill, Rome:"See," said the Waldensian, "a beautiful monument of ecclesiastical antiquity. These rough materials are the ruins of the two great Palatine libraries, one Greek and the other Latin, where the precious manuscripts of our ancestors were collected, and which Pope Gregory I, called the Great, caused to be burned." (DeSanctis, Popery, Puseyism, Jesuitism, p. 53.) The destruction of Waldensian records beginning about 600 A. D. by Gregory I, was carried through with thoroughness by the secret agents of the Papacy.
"It is a singular thing," says Gilly, "that the destruction or rapine, which has been so fatal to Waldensian documents, should have pursued them even to the place of security, to which all, that remained, were consigned by Morland, in 1658, the library of the University of Cambridge. The most ancient of these relics were ticketed in seven packets, distinguished by letters of the alphabet, from A to G. The whole of these were missing when I made inquiry for them in 1823." (Gilly, Waldensian Researches, p. 80.)


There are modern writers who attempt to fix the beginning of the Waldenses from Peter Waldo, who began his work about 1175. This is a mistake. The historical name of this people, as properly derived from the valleys where they lived, is Vaudois. Their enemies, however, ever sought to date their origin from Waldo. Waldo was an agent, evidently raised up of God to combat the errors of Rome. Gilly, who made extensive research concerning the Waldenses, pictures Waldo in his study at Lyon, France, with associates, a committee, "like the translators of our own Authorized Version." (Comba, Waldenses of Italy, p. 169, note 596.) Nevertheless the history of the Waldenses, or Vaudois, begins centuries before the days of Waldo.


Excerpts from Anabaptist Historical Sources
on the Waldensians and related movements

I. From The Swiss Anabaptists: A brief summary of their History and Beliefs, [Main author, Clair R. Weaver] , Eastern Mennonite Publications, 1990.

The Waldensian church -- A Beacon in the Dark Ages
". . . Peter Waldo . . . is sometimes thought to have founded the Waldensian church. . . In 1180, he helped to form a church . . . He abandoned his merchant vocation, dispersed all his material goods to the poor, and assumed the role of a public teacher. . . He was bitterly opposed by the authorities of his day, but this only served to multiply the number of his followers. The first established churches were in France. Later churches were established in Lombardy [Northern Italy, on the south side of the Alps], and from there, they spread to every province of Europe."
[ A list follows of their beliefs and doctrines. An excerpt: ]
". . . They adopted, as the code of their moral discipline, the Sermon of Christ on the Mount, which they interpreted and explained in the most rigorous and literal manner, and of consequence prohibiting and condemning in their society all wars, and suits of law, all attempts to the acquisition of wealth, the infliction of capital punishments, self-defense against unjust violence, and oaths of all kinds."
* * * * * *
"It seems evident that the Waldensian church was a continuation of the 'peasant' religions of previous times and was not founded by Peter Waldo. Rather, he and his immediate followers joined them and became revitalizing leaders."


WALDENSIAN BIBLE-BELIEVERS
AND THEIR UNFORESEEN IMPACT
ON THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION AND BEYOND
BY
JESSE M. BOYD
31 OCTOBER 2002
“As for the Waldenses, I may be permitted to call them the very seed of the primitive and purer Christian Church, since they are those that have been upheld, as is abundantly manifest, by the wonderful providence of God, so that neither those endless storms and tempests by which the whole Christian world has been shaken for so many succeeding ages, and the western parts at length, so miserably oppressed by the Bishop of Rome falsely so called, nor those horrible persecutions which have been expressly raised against them, were ever able so far to prevail as to make them bend, or yield a voluntary subjection to the Roman tyranny and idolatry.”
--Theodore Beza (Successor of John Calvin), 16th Century


II). HISTORICAL BACKGROUND
Before specifically discussing the Waldensian impact on the Reformation and beyond, it is only appropriate to provide a concise historical background of these enigmatic peoples.This will be done by focusing upon their origins, the persecutions directed against them, and their status at the time of the Reformation.[11] The Question of Origins The typical mantra concerning the origin of the Waldenses follows that of Justo Gonzalez, a present-day “anti-Church” (see Introductory Overture) historian.He argues that the Waldenses originated with Peter Waldo (1140-1218), “a merchant from Lyons who heard the story of a monk who practiced extreme poverty and was moved by it to devote himself to a life of poverty and preaching.”[12]Waldo supposedly gathered to himself a handful of followers who became known as Waldenses.These appealed to Rome for the right to preach publicly and were denied.Nevertheless, their preaching continued, and persecution followed.Supposedly, the Waldenses were forced to flee into “remote valleys in the Alps, where they continued existing until the Protestant Reformation.At that time they were approached by Reformed theologians whose teachings they accepted, and thus became Protestant.”[13]Such oversimplification of events is typical, misleading, and highly suspect.Assigning origins to the twelfth century preaching of Peter Waldo is, for all practical purposes, based on the work of two German critics—Diekhoff (Die Waldenser im Mittelalter,1851) and Herzog (Die Romanischen Waldenser, 1853).Their research, which is largely based upon the questionable testimony of Catholic witnesses who assign the origin of the Waldenses to Waldo (i.e. witnesses who would naturally attempt to slander the origins of“heretics” so as to maintain the claim of “Holy Mother Church” to apostolic succession—see footnote #6), has been swallowed, feathers and all, by modern church historians who languish “in servility to the spirit by which some American scholars ape ‘higher critics’ of Germany on their criticisms on the Bible.”[14]An example of this can be seen in Armitage’s massive work on Baptist History.He writes, “Some Waldensian writers think that they can trace their origin back to the days of Constantine and even to the Apostles, but Dieckhoff and Herzog have shown that this claim will not bear critical investigation.”[15]The problem with such unquestioned “critical investigation” is three-fold.First of all, Diekhoff and Herzog disagree in more points than they agree.[16]Secondly, in appealing to popish testimony to advance their claims, they ignore a larger number of popish witnesses which “testify in favor of the antiquity of the Waldenses.”[17]It has often been said that the supporting testimony of one’s enemies constitutes the most valuable form of evidence.This being the case, “the Romish writers in favor of Waldensian antiquity are entitled to much greater credit than are those against it.”[18]Finally, the claims made by Diekhoff and Herzog cast aside the external and internal evidence of Waldensian manuscripts.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith