WHY THE RAPTURE MUST BE PRE-TRIBULATION

No, in chapter 14, right before the harvest is mentioned, we are shown Christ standing on Mount Zion. This is when the rapture (harvest/resurrection) occurs.
In chapter 19, we see Him on the white horse, and in v.14, the already transformed saints are now His armies.
In chapter 20, we see the righteous given their thrones of judgment, and the passage reiterates that many of them had been beheaded and resisted the mark of the beast, and would reign for 1000 years. "This is the first resurrection" simply means that these saints described were apart of the first resurrection. It is not saying the resurrection was occuring right at that minute. It had already occurred, the saints then fought with Christ and now begin their reign with Him.
The timeline of the seals and Armageddon (by themselves) are not given, so it could be very, very short, (weeks perhaps, if not less) and not take away from the 1000 year reign afterwards.

 

Angel4Christ>>I guess you didnt know that as well as the early church some church Fathers taught it , it wasnt started in the 1800s - here is a quote from Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins"
______________
No Angel, you are listening to a few story tellers (Thomas Ice, Demy, Jeffrey) that twist the truth. Ice in particular will stop at nothing. Please do some more research and you will find that Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon lends NO support to a pre-trib rapture. The REAL Ephraem was Catholic. Do you think a Catholic would write about a pre-trib rapture?!

First, they (Thomas Ice, Demy, Jeffrey) study Ephraem's sermon by way of Paul J. Alexander's "The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition" and claim to find this pre-trib statement.

Second, they don't tell you that Alexander writes of Ephraem's POST-TRIB conclusion.

Third, they don't tell you that the "gathered" in your mentioned quote is later spoken of by Ephraem as being a gathering away from the wicked in earthly settings and then "taken" closer to the Lord when the tribulation intensifies (Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot, Second Edition, pp. 268-273).

Fouth, they won't tell you that the only thing Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon mentions as being imminent is "the advent of the wicked one."

The pre-trib rapture was never "found" until 1830 ish.

Dave Bussard
www.whowillbeleftbehindandwhen.com

 

Personally, i never found it until 1952

But when i did find it, i found it
in a book completed in 96AD (the New
Testament)

 

Good come-back Mr. Ed!

 

Amen, Ed. You preach it, brother.

Angel, don't let the naysayers dissuade you. They tried it with Paul, too, but he kept going for the glory of God (and thank God he did, or we'd have a much smaller NT).

Funny how we ALL like to interpret Scripture through our own particular pair of rose-colored glasses, ain't it? I do it, and I know it. But y'all know something? I do it because that is how God has revealed it to me.

That doesn't change His truth. It means that I understand it to say one thing, and you understand it to mean another. Who's right? I don't know for sure, but Jesus will tell us when we meet Him face to face.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

I like to think of it
as hope.

1 Corinthians 13:3 (KJV1769):

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

 

There are probably more protestants
here that belive that than RC members </font>[/QUOTE]At the turn of the 19th century - by far the majority of Catholic and non-Catholic Christians took a post millenial view of the second coming.

However - I find it interesting that you would claim that the majority of non-Catholics take that view "still" today. What group is that?

Since the Baptists are the largest non-Catholic group and they all accept a premillenial 2nd coming - who are those that reject it?

In Christ,

Bob

 

No, in chapter 14, right before the harvest is mentioned, we are shown Christ standing on Mount Zion. This is when the rapture (harvest/resurrection) occurs.
In chapter 19, we see Him on the white horse, and in v.14, the already transformed saints are now His armies.
In chapter 20, we see the righteous given their thrones of judgment, and the passage reiterates that many of them had been beheaded and resisted the mark of the beast, and would reign for 1000 years. "This is the first resurrection" simply means that these saints described were apart of the first resurrection. It is not saying the resurrection was occuring right at that minute. It had already occurred, the saints then fought with Christ and now begin their reign with Him.
The timeline of the seals and Armageddon (by themselves) are not given, so it could be very, very short, (weeks perhaps, if not less) and not take away from the 1000 year reign afterwards. </font>[/QUOTE]The book of Revelation is in segments - each showing the 2000 years between the cross and the end of the world in 7 part sequences.

Then we have a detailed focus on the very end with the appearing of Christ starting in Rev 19 followed by the resurrection of the righteous, the literal 1000 years and the 2nd resurrection and the end in 22. Explicit sequence with the details spelled out.

In Rev 6:14 we see the 2nd coming.
In Rev 14:10 we see the lake of fire
In Rev 14:15 we see the 2nd coming and the reaping of the earth.

In Rev 19 we see the 2nd coming again
In Rev 20 we see that immediately following the 2nd coming - is the FIRST resurrection -- the resurrection of the righteous "OVER these the 2nd death has NO power"

In 1Thess 4 we see the resurrection of the rigteous described in the same way - AT the 2nd coming.

(Obviously there is no term "second coming" - rather it is all at the appearing of Christ - as the Bible says "when Christ comes" or when He "appears" -- the same thing).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob , the tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble also Daniels 70th week , it is not for the church , its to bring a non believing Israel back to God . God does not forgo his promises and He told the jews that he would never make a full end of them and gave specific promises that did not transfer to the church , we were grafted in . The church is refered to as the Bride of Christ - do you seriously think the groom is going to drag the bride through the mud before wedding? The bible says there is no condemnation to those in Christ , and the tribulation is a time of judgment , judgment means condemnation- to fully understand this , lets look at the hebrew wedding custom since Christ was speaking to those who would know it when he was talking about the wedding feast :

The Hebrew wedding ceremony
When a young Jew male comes to the house of a prospective bride and meets with the father of the bride. They negotiate a price. If the father accepts the offer, the young couple drink a benediction which the father offers of wine. The couple are married in Spirit. The groom goes away to prepare a place but the bride doesn't know when He'll return. He has gone back to his fathers house to prepare a place for her. When he comes back it is usually at night with a shout "make way for the bride groom cometh" and the sound of the trump. He does not enter the house but waits in the street, the bride and her brides maids come out and the friends of the groom surround them and go back to his fathers house. He and her enter the Hoppa they consummate the marriage physically. He rejoins the celebration and she remains protected, hidden... in the hoppa for seven days.
What I just described is what Christ was referring to in John 14:4.

John 14:1-6
"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, Believe also in Me.
"In My Fathers house are many mansions (dwellings); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
"And where I go you know, and the way you know."
Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?"
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, No one comes to the Father except through Me.

This fully matches up with these verses as well :

Acts 1:9-11
Now when He (Jesus) had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel. who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven." (NKJV)

and : 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Rapture and the 2nd coming are 2 different events . The earliest church Fathers also held a literal millenial reign of Christ .

 

Angel,

There is no question that the John 14 promise, the 1Thess 4 prediction and the Rev 19-22 predictions are all referring to the same events.

In 1Thess 4 we see the hope and focus of the NT church in the resurrection of the righteous AND the rapture of the saints to heaven.

In Rev 20 John tells us that it is the "FIRST" resurrection and not the 2nd -- that is the resurrection of the righteous.

He also tells us there - that this event - the same 1Thess 4 event - the resurrection of the righteous - marks the start of the literal 1000 years.

And yes - it ALSO marks the time of the John 14 fulfillment - the saints raptured up to be with Christ in heaven - in His Father's house, not here on earth just as you say.

It is "common" to find that those who have found the truth of the post-tribulation rapture have the problem of rejecting the truth of John 14 and 1Thess 4 by not having that rapture TAKE the saints to heaven. I do not make either the mistake of a pre-trib rapture OR the mistake of a rapture that does NOT have the saints taken to heaven as John 14 states.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob , did you read the wedding custom ? The bride is HIDDEN in the Fathers HOUSE (heaven) for 7 days = those 7 days would be daniels 70th week ,which is also the time of JACOBS trouble - whose Jacob? ISRAEL , not the church . Where is the Fathers house? Heaven. If the bride is hidden in heaven for 7 days which is daniels prophecy 7 years , how can we be on earth being tested? We arent appointed to wrath either , our redemption has been OBTAINED .

Im sorry bob but i dont see him telling us that . The jews who Christ was speaking to , understood the hebrew wedding ceremony , which is why they would have understood what Christ was refering to . We will not be here , there will be tribulation saints , but they wont be the church . They will not be kept from that time of trial and judgment that comes upon the earth , and many then will be martyred , these are those who become christians after the rapture , during the tribulation . Again Jacob is NOT the church - its israel , the time of the gentiles will have been completed .

[ October 04, 2003, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: AngelforChrist ]

 

#1. Christ did not say in John 14 "you will be hidden in my father's house". That concept is not found in all of scripture.

#2. The statement of John 14 is made the disciples alone - at the last supper. They ask to come with Christ immediately - but He says "where I am going you can not go". This is "not a statement about waiting for trouble". In fact all of His listeners will suffer persecution and die. They receive the John 14 promise - at 1Thess 4 - .

The dark ages already saw the slaughter of millions of Christians over centuries of time. It is too late to claim that the church did not go through tribulation.

The traditions of the Jews are never mentioned as the "meaning" or interpretation of John 14. Combine extra-biblical concepts about Jewish traditions with the chapter of John 14 is not "exegesis" it is "eisegesis" - it does not deal with the actual context of John 14. They are not considering a "wedding" but rather "a crucifixion".

The "event" is the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

The "promise" is that THEY TOO will follow Christ (but not now) after they TOO have gone through tribulation and death.

And as already noted - all timelines, all timeline prophecies in the Bible are contiguous by definition - inserting gaps of unknown time in the middle of ANY timeline - abolishes its use as a timeline. So Daniels 2300 days, Jeremiahs 70 years and Daniels 490 years (70 weeks) are all contiguous timelines - which is the only way it works.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: "In Rev 20 John tells us that it is the "FIRST"
resurrection and not the 2nd -- that is the
resurrection of the righteous."

Amen, Brother BobRyan. And there are multiple first resurrections
as shown below!

Revelation 20:4-5a (KJV1769):

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until
the thousand years were finished.
This is the FIRST resurrection.

What about "first" here
(in the English or in the Greek)
says that there is one and only one resurrection?
Nothing. "First" never implies "only"
(a good English phrase "first and only" does imply only )
In fact, the very verse 4 shows
TWO GROUPS of resurrected people:

1) " thrones, and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:"

These are those who were resurrected before the
Tribulation period who were awarded with special
service in the Millennial Kingdom.

2) "them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands;"

These are those that were resurrected after the Tribulation
Period, the Tribualtion Period saints.

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
Yisarel passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 29 Sept 2003;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised before
the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #2 and #3 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Bob you are ignoring this : "In My Fathers house are many mansions (dwellings); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This place is heaven Bob . Why does it make sense to you that Christ would rapture us to a mansion in heaven to IMMEDIATELY return to earth with Him to battle? When does the wedding happen in your veiw , why prepare us a place if we are coming right back? As far as the wedding custom , why does Christ refer to us as a bride and himself as a groom if you dont feel this is what is meant here? The people Christ were speaking to directly would have understood his parable , may I suggest you study some jewish history and customs at the time of Christ ? That would put so much more into context for you .

 

#1. There is no "immediately leave heaven" scenario. We are raptured up with Christ and go to heaven. That resurrection at the return of Christ (See Rev 19 and 20) starts the 1000 years - a time spent with Christ in heaven (not merely 7 years).

So instead of being "shorter" than you are thinking - the time in heaven - is much longer.

#2.There are "other places" where Christ speaks of the wedding feast itself - but never does He speak of "hiding the bride".

Instead - the church is represented by Christ as the bridesmaids - the 10 virgins that either go in to the feast or stay outside depending on their situation. (Holy Spirit is the oil in that case). That is the direct and explicit teaching of Christ on the church and the bride and the wedding.

#3. Christ says nothing about a bride or a wedding in John 14. The context there is the crucifixion and the fact that "in the world you have trouble - take courage I have overcome the world".

In fact in John 17 ( a part of that same meeting in John 14) Christ says that the Father is "NOT to take them out of the world" but to KEEP them from the evil one EVEN while they are IN the world.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob , we would be immediately returning , because all the saints come with Christ for armageddon and Christs millenial reign will be on earth , not heaven so this makes no sense .

Books and verses to support this please .

Why would he need to define the hebrew (jewish) wedding custom to the jews who would know this information already?

Yes we will either be raptured up to meet Christ in the air , or we will be left behind because we didnt have oil in our lamps (the Holy Spirit because we received the gospel)Did you not also see in the wedding custom that the groom does not come to the bride but calls her out with a shout and a trumpet call? Does your bible state we will meet him in the air? Are you thinking we will meet him in the air , as he is coming to earth?

If so , then this would mean that those raptured would never make it to heaven as Christ is coming to reign in the millenium , which makes no sense . Christ doesnt come all the way back at the rapture , he calls us up to meet him in the air , then we go to the place he prepared for us for us to be hidden away from WRATH for 7 days .

 

Lets take one part at a time.

quote:Bob Said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1. There is no "immediately leave heaven" scenario. We are raptured up with Christ and go to heaven. That resurrection at the return of Christ (See Rev 19 and 20) starts the 1000 years - a time spent with Christ in heaven (not merely 7 years).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have the text of Rev 20 showing the fact that the first resurrection is the event starting the 1000 year timeline.

I also show that it is the resurrection of the righteous and that the resurrection of the righteous is the subject of 1Thess 4.

Your statement above merely asserts your previous views - but is not supported.

quote:Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So instead of being "shorter" than you are thinking - the time in heaven - is much longer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Already given above.

quote:Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#2.There are "other places" where Christ speaks of the wedding feast itself - but never does He speak of "hiding the bride".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here again you are using eisegesis to interpret the chapter. The Jews had a great many traditions. There is nothing mentioned in John 14 about a wedding OR about hiding anyone in His Father's house. Making it up does not turn it into "exegesis" (sound, objective, compelling Bible interpretation based on actual context).

quote: Bob Said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead - the church is represented by Christ as the bridesmaids - the 10 virgins that either go in to the feast or stay outside depending on their situation. (Holy Spirit is the oil in that case). That is the direct and explicit teaching of Christ on the church and the bride and the wedding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. Raptured in the air to meet Him and then to return to heaven with Him just as John 14 states. And then to remain their with him AFTER that resurrection of the righteous that happened at His appearing where we were rapture - for 1000 years just as the text of Rev 20 states.

You are correct.

Not true. There is no "hidden for 7 days" terminology in all of scripture much less the Gospels.

quote: Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#3. Christ says nothing about a bride or a wedding in John 14. The context there is the crucifixion and the fact that "in the world you have trouble - take courage I have overcome the world".

First of all - there is no wedding statement of Christ where He claims that the church is hidden or that the bride is hidden.

Secondly - in His parables the church is not the bride - the church is the bridesmaid and there is nothing about hiding brides maids in the Father's house of 7 days to "insert" into Christ's illustration at that point.

Bob said In fact in John 17 ( a part of that same meeting in John 14) Christ says that the Father is "NOT to take them out of the world" but to KEEP them from the evil one EVEN while they are IN the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They are killed - but protected from apostacy. As Rev 12 points out - they are killed.

As Matt 24 points out -- they are killed.

As Rev 13 points out -- they are killed.

Rev 12 - they are getting killed for 1260 years.

Daniel 7 - they are getting killed for 1260 years.

Daniel 8 - they are getting killed.

As the dark ages point out - they were killed.

AS the Christians in Somalia point out - they are being killed.

Yes - that would be Christians "killed" by the millions over many centuries. THAT is the "future" Christ pointed to - and that is exactly what did happen.

The church and the tribulation saints ARE the same people.

The promise that the gates of hell would not prevail (in Matt 16) says nothing about "Well they WILL previal all the way up to the point of the tribulation and then they won't prevail anymore".

So it applies to the ENTIRE time - the entire 2000 years. The gates of hell DON't prevail because as Rev 12 says the saints OVERCOME - because they do not love life - so much that they refuse to die for Christ.

In the statement about the gates of hell not prevailing there is nothing in the text to "limit that to only being true during the tribulation - last 7 years". It is true the ENTIRE time - during ALL those centuries of killing and tribulation. The gates of hell do NOT prevail even then - AND the saints OVERCOME during the 1260 years of persecution as Rev 12 points out.

The dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob I dont see you supporting this , I see oyu keep saying it only

I merely see your opinion there with nothing to back it up , i have more than backed up my opinion with scripture and the hebrew wedding custom.

 

Bob im sorry , i totally disagree with you , the church is not apointed to wrath and the tribulation is a time of wrath and judgment and its also not for the church . Do you believe that the church replaced israel in Gods promises to the jews? Maybe your answer can help clear this up .
oh and who is Jacob in your veiw , i see you keep missing some of my points

 

Angel,

#1. Your approach is not exactly a Bible study showing "context" - it pieces together a "selected tradition" of the Jews and claims that Christ ever referenced it - which He did not.

#2. Christ's OWN use of the wedding feast does not show the church being anything other than "a guest" or "a bridesmaid" - which totally excludes the possibility of "inserting" the Jewish tradition that you reference.

#3. The Rev 19 chapter - the entire chapter is a vivid depiction of Christ appearing in heaven.

Rev 20 shows the resurrection of the righteous starting the 1000 years as follows...

In Christ,

Bob