Tribulation Saints

MexDeafTrib,

yer very confusing.

First, the continents are

Africa
Australia
Europe
Asia
South America
North America
Antarctica

(Greenland is not a continent)

Second, you contradict yourself in several places in your theory of who it is that letteth. One major contradiction is you say from the beginning that it is satan who is the one who letteth, that satan is holding himself back. Then you say that 'Christ is holding him back; with reference to Revelation 20:1-3.

Satan cannot be the one holding himself back, for the scripture plainly tell us:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

These verses here plainly show it cannot be satan who is the one who 'letteth.' After he that letteth is taken out of the way, then shall the wicked one be revealed.

The wicked one will not be revealed until he who letteth is taken out of the way.

Then a short time later he will be destroyed by the Lord in the second coming. How do I know he will be destroyed sometime after he is revealed? That word 'shall' in verse 8 is a future tense word.

You also say in your thesis that satan is in the bottomless pit now. If indeed that were true, then that would be another proof that he cannot be the one who letteth. If he were in the pit now, he is not restraining himself, for he does not have the possession of the key to the pit. In Revelation we see an angel with the key to the pit.

Satan is restrained in 2 Thessalonians, but not by himself. He is restrained by the Holy Spirit which is God's active force in the world today.

 

DeafPostTrib,

Show me a scripture where the Bible says the church is Israel please.

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

Does not make sense, does it?

The body of Christ is the Church... If Israel is the Church, the the church is not saved.

The church and Israel are two different entities.

(my previous post should be addressed to DeafPostTrib also... sorry)

 

And why can't it also be "feel good" while remaining TRUE? Is it only truth if we are made to go through the great tribulation and suffer God's and the antichrist's wrath?

1Th 5:11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.

Sounds pretty "feel good" to me, espceially in light of...

1Th 5:1 About the times and the seasons: brothers, you do not need anything to be written to you.

 

Oh, it works just find, providing you understand the "TRINTY" and how to "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD",

1. Father/God/Holy Spirit
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


2. Son/Jesus/Holy GHOST (of Jesus)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The "SON" (comforter) didn't speak in the OT, and neither will it during the trib.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

So long as the "comforter" in present, "Power" is on the side of the people.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Jo 4:4 because greater is "HE" that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Once the "Comforter" is gone, "power" is on the side of the oppressor.

2Th 2:7 only "HE" who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

I'll answer this one...

Galatians 6:15-16 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

The term "Israel of God" here refers to the church.

 

Calvibaptist,

That is speaking of the saved Jews in Israel. They are part of the church, but they are not the church.

 

Can you prove this? Or does it just fit your dispensationalism?

What about this verse?

Romans 4:11-12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Here, Abraham is the father of circumcision to all those who are of the faith that he had. If Abraham is the father of both Jewish and Gentile believers in the church, that would make us Israelites (spiritually).

Or what about this?

Galatians 3:7-9 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

According to this, all those who are of faith (Jews and Gentiles) are sons of Abraham (Israelites). We are blessed with believing Abraham, meaning that we are brought into the Abrahamic covenant.

Or what about this?

Romans 11:17-18 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches.

The Olive tree is Israel. The branches that were broken off were unbelieving (physical) Israelites. The branches that were grafted in were believing (physical) Gentiles, that you would call the church. Therefore, the church is now Israel.

I'm sorry, but the Bible does not support the relatively new concept of a complete separation between Israel and the Church. There is one people of God - those who are of the faith of Abraham. The purpose of God has always been to redeem a people. Those people are not tied to a land just like God is not tied to a building called a temple. God's kingdom has always been a spiritual kingdom and God's people have always been a spiritual people.

 

I have already proved it through just one verse. That is enough evidence to show that Israel is not and cannot be the true church of God.

I will post it again...

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

It does not fit.

Now, if the above verse cannot be the Church, then the verses you brought up are not the church either.

 

CalviBaptist

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Because of God's promise to Abraham/Israel, the "physical nation" of Israel, (i.e Jews) can be "enemies of the gospel" and still be "Elect", God isn't finished with them as he would be with a "Gentile Nation" who was his "enemy".

The "church" is chosen from among "all nations", "whosoever will", while the promises to Israel are restricted to the "physical nation" of Jews.

That's not to say the Gentiles don't enjoy the same benefits, but the physical nation of Israel is "sit aside" as "special people", by God.

 

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

It does not fit.

Now, if the above verse cannot be the Church, then the verses you brought up are not the church either. </font>[/QUOTE]Boy, SFIC, how did everyone for 2,000 years of church history miss that obvious verse that you, in your wisdom, used to prove that Israel and the Church aren't the same?

Come on. No one means that the nation of Israel is the church. Believing Israelites have always been called the "ekklesia". Check out the Septuagint. The Greek word for church is used many times of believing Israel. When Gentiles were grafted in, they were not grafted into the physical nation of Israel. They were brought into the church of which believing Israelites were already a part. Thus (true, spiritual) Israel is the Church despite what you think to be your prooftext.

In regards to your proof, Paul was not talking about spiritual Israelites who were already saved and, thus, part of the church. He was saying that his desire was for those Israelites who were still unbelievers and were, thus, not true Israelites or part of the church. This has nothing to do with whether the terms Israel (in the spiritual sense) and church are interchangeable. Your argument, quite simply, proves nothing because the verse is not about what you are using it to prove.