Bush unworthy of the Christian vote

In regards to point 4 - what has become the god of many Bush supporters here? Maybe the Republican Party?

 

That may very well be true. However, I don't think you can make an argument that the CP is the "Christian" party. All I know is that when we Republicans talk about Biblical principles of helping your neighbor when dealing with supporting Israel and Iraq, the CPer's tend to abandon Biblical arguments and argue from the Constitution about how we should not be sending any aid to them. I guess the Bible doesn't adaquately support their isolationists views of the world.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I would agree that there is no "Christian" Party.

 

The only regret that I have over fighting terrorists is that we can only kill each of them once. But the Iraq war is a misguided effort, IMO. That position does not make one a pacifist.

The CP would be against Clinton's tax increase and in favor of Bush's tax cut. But we also realize that a tax cut in the face of wold, unrestrained spending is hollow. If you look at the numbers, Clinton was more responsible than Bush. Both had bad policy.

This is an emotional issue; but you should not attribute everything that a "CP supporter" says to the CP. Look at their positions, and you'll see.

Why are you so bothered by the Constitution?

From the CP platform:

Joseph, awhile back I remember you stating that you repented of making unfair and hateful judgements against Muslims. You should do the same for Christians.

 

Here is my reasonable basis for supporting Bush:

1. War on Terror
2. Tax Cuts
3. 2-4 SC appointments in the next four years
4. Support for Israel
5. PBA ban, Lacy Peterson Law, appointment of pro-life judges

But, let's have some fun here. Do you have a Biblical basis for pulling all support for Israel and Iraq. It seems to me that my Bible says something about helping our neighbors. How does the CP BIBLICALLY defend their idea that they should withdraw aid from our neighbors? Everyone pay particular attention to how many times scripture is quoted and how many times the Constitution is quoted here.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Do you also support the millios of federal aid going to Egypt also? The US Constitution is the law that our government is supposed to follow. Can you show me where the US Constitution authorizes taking money from the voters to redistribute around the world? The Constitution Party isn't against Israel, they are agaist sending millions of tax dollars to any foriegn nation.

The Bible commands Christians to help their neighbors, it doesn't command the government to take money from the voters to give away. The Constitution is quoted on this forum because this is the politics forum. The US Constitution should be the foundation of law in politics. Would you rather we throw away the Constitution and use the Old Testament law to set up a theocracy for our system of government?

 

The Bible also says to render unto Ceaser whatis Ceaser's. The issue of the Bible was brought up because the whole idea of whether or not a Christian should vote for Bush or Peroutka was brought up by a CP supporter. It has also been implied that the CP is more Christian than the Republicans as a reason why we should vote for the CP. I disagree. The CP is certainly more Constitutional and isolationist than the GOP, but definitely not more Christian. If it were, then they would hold strictly to the teachings of the Bible, even if that disagrees with the Constitution (although, I know that many of you would confuse the two ... ).

Personally, I do think an OT theocracy is the type of Government that God would have preferred. As a matter of fact, I believe he was hestitant to allow Israel to have a monarchy instead. If our country were run by Christian, Godly men, I certainly think we would be better off. If one were to take a brief glance at the CP website without really digging into their ideas, one might even come to that conclusion also.

Also, I note that as of yet, no CP supporter has defended successfully from the Bible the idea that we should pull all support from Israel and Iraq. Who will be the first to give it a go? How many scripture will they quote to show us that they are the party of Christians and for Christians. My guess is that they are the party of Constitutional isolationists for the Constitutional isolationists.

Joseph Botwinick

 

You are wrong. I know many democrats who are pro life, and there are republicans who also happen to be gay. That you would generalise to that extent is frightening. Do you really think that all conservatives are heterosexuals? What about Mary Cheney, who is a lesbian and a republican, then?

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry, Corinne, but you are quite wrong. The official Democrat Party platform says that they intend to preserve a woman's right of choice, so that the Party is officially pro-choice. The GOP is officially pro-life in their platform.
</font>[/QUOTE]Forget about the parties. I am talking about people. You cannot deny that there are prolife democrats and prochoice republicans. You cannot deny that there are antigay marriage democrats and gay republicans. The party line exists, but nobody is obliged to follow it and many don't.

Look, it is like the Christians. Many Christians are for Bush and many are also for Kerry. Face the fact: America is divided, and not only politically.

Corinne

 

Corrine,

While you are correct about the diversity of the parties, it is quite clear where John Kerry stands on the issue of abortion. One has to look no further than his record of voting in the senate for the last 20 years to figure out where he stands on the abortion issue, including voting against the PBA ban that Bush supported.

Joseph Botwinick

 

The commands of the Bible are to the Christians not to the government. Are you saing that you can use Scripture to support giving Israel $3 billion a year, with over $2 billion of that being for military aid. If that is your deffinition of loving your neighbor, then when is the last time you bought all of your neigbors a bunch of guns to defend themselves with?

Israel is just one of the many countries that recieve unconstitutional aid at the US taxpayers expense.

If you support giving Israel $3 billion a year in tax money, do you also support the $2 billion a year in tax money going to Egypt, or the millions going to Jordan, Pakistan, India and all of the other nations around the world? The United States gives out $13.3 billion tax dollars in direct Foreign Aid annually.

The Constitution Party is not singling out Israel as you say they are, the Constitution Party is against all unconstitutional Foreign Aid.

 

For example, the original post in this thread said the following:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/18/2386.html

Here were some of the responses from some of the other CP supporters:

and

To which I note and respond:

1. The theory has been put forth that Bush is the candidate of the devil and Peroutka is the Christian candidate by the CP supporters.

2. Based on that, shouldn't the CPer's show us from the Bible where they get the idea of not helping our neighbors? Use the Bible, and not the Constitution.

Good Luck!

Joseph Botwinick

 

The commands of the Bible are to the Christians not to the government.</font>[/QUOTE]Therefore, it should not matter that the leader is not a Christian? Should the government not use Christian principles when deciding policy? Or should they only do that when it would agree with your ideology?

Are you saing that you can use Scripture to support giving Israel $3 billion a year, with over $2 billion of that being for military aid.[/QUOTE]

The Bible does tells us to help our neighbors and to stand up for those who cannot stand up for themselves. Without America's help, Israel would have been driven into the sea a long time ago.

If that is your deffinition of loving your neighbor, then when is the last time you bought all of your neigbors a bunch of guns to defend themselves with? [/QUOTE]

If I had enough money, I would certainly do that.

Israel is just one of the many countries that recieve unconstitutional aid at the US taxpayers expense.[/QUOTE]

So, therefore, you are defending your parties policy with the Constitution and not the Bible. Thank you very much for proving my point.

If you support giving Israel $3 billion a year in tax money, do you also support the $2 billion a year in tax money going to Egypt, or the millions going to Jordan, Pakistan, India and all of the other nations around the world? The United States gives out $13.3 billion tax dollars in direct Foreign Aid annually.

The Constitution Party is not singling out Israel as you say they are, the Constitution Party is against all unconstitutional Foreign Aid. [/QUOTE]

I don't know enough information about these other nations to say whether or not I approve of them. But, I know that I certainly do approve of the aid we give to Israel and Iraq.

Joseph Botwinick

 

How about the aid that we have been giving to Iraq for the last 20 years while Saddam was in power? Was that okay, and the "Christian" thing to do as well?

You say, "Without America's help, Israel would have been driven into the sea a long time ago.", but wasn't it George W. Bush telling Israel to show restraint against the terrorist who have attacked them, and to show restraint against Arafat? If the nation of Israel as we know it today is God's choosen nation, then wouldn't it be God that is keeping them from being "driven into the sea", and not America?

Do you honestly believe that a $3 billion a year blank check is the Biblical definition of "love your neighbor"?

Can you defend the three branches of government or the electoral college system with the Bible? We are not a theocracy, but a Constitutional Republic, everything our government has the power to do is in the US Constitution, and federal foriegn aid is not one of those powers.

 

After reading through some of these posts I was truck with several impressions. Just because we give Israel money does not mean that will we get blessed. What if Israel uses it to massacre people or to further alienate the Arab people?

There is a great deal of emphasis put upon abortion and stacking the courts with favorable judges who are still stuck with the separation of Church and State of which they must do. So do we go back to the mistakes our founding fathers learned in the British Isles. Look at Northern Ireland to see the results. As much as the Church challenges these issues, this is first elections where the common good of the individual and his or hers neighbours is silent. Does the Church wish to talk about fornication amongst its members? Drinking, drugs and those Christian who seek abortions? How many people cheat on their taxes every year, lie, decieve and have no love for anyone?

Foreign aid is bribery and nothing more. Oil rich countries do not need our money or the International Irish Fund to help Britain to resolve its mess in Ireland. We have homeless here, old people without food and health care, our neighbours who will go without.

Shame on us Lord!

 

Remember, after Tuesday all of us are going to have to pray for the President Elect.

 

No shame on you for spouting the typical liberal anti-semitic propaganda.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Are you telling me that this election is not about Christian values and principles? That is fine. But please don't try to tell me that I am wrong as a Christian to vote for Bush and that you are right as a Christian to vote for Peroutka, especially when you cannot prove your corner on the market of Biblical morality.

BTW, at the time, yes it was the right thing to do to arm the rebels in Afganistan who drove out the Communists Soviets. Reagan was absolutely correct to do so. And, helping Israel in their time of need is certainly a very Biblical thing to do, just as it is with Iraq and Afganistan.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Joseph,

It has been pointed out that God commands people, not governmednts to help their neighbors.

Did God command Israel to help the nations around them by taxing the Hebrew people, and giving away their substance?

And if, say, a $5 billion check to Israel annually is a biblical requirement, would you say that we really should be "giving" $10 Billion? 15? How about a Trillion? Would that be better? And, why are we so stingy with other nations? Israel at least has food.

Shouldn't we be giving more to dozens of starving nations in Africa? How about ten billion each? Twenty? That would feed a lot of people. Shoul we give away all that we have short of the necesities of life, to the nations of the world? Wouldn't that be Christian love?

See, you may have whatever opinion you wish with regard to aid to Israel, but if you make it a test of Christianinty, it opens a can of worms. And, as I said, nowhere does scripture suggest that the puropse of human government is to collectively redistribute wealth. That was Marx, not Jesus.

 

You are right, Jim. But I wasn't the one who made my vote a test of Christianity. I think if you read the title of this thread and some of the responses, it is very clear that the CPers are the one who would like to do that. I am only challenging that assertion.

Joseph Botwinick