For those Curious about Smith Wigglesworth and other early revivalists

Gee SMM, I can't get this file to open. Can you post it in a different way?

MEE

 

SMM, I did get that to open. I just didn't wait long enough. I put it in favorites, until I can get time to read it later.

We've been trying to get the barns full, of hay, for the winter. Horses do need to eat!

Hope to read it and will possibly comment later.

MEE

 

**Sure, maybe I could learn something more about them.

MEE

 

I have been doing some research about the early revivalists and I have been wondering something.

Why do Pentecostals seem to teach today that the gifts of the Spirit have been around since the day of Pentecost when the early revivalists were teaching that their experiences were "new", and part of what they called the "latter rain" that was a "renewal" of the outpouring of the Spirit in preparation for the Lord's imminent return? I have debated the cessation of the spiritual gifts with many Pentecostals (several on this very board) and they proclaim that the gifts have never ceased. Now I find out that the founders of the very doctrines these people follow never taught such a thing (probably because it was obvious that until that time the gifts had ceased). Even Smith Wigglesworth said:

So why do Pentecostals today reject the idea that the gifts had ceased until the birth of Pentecostalism? Those who started this "new" religion obviouly did not.

~Lorelei

 

SMM, great post! If you want some church history, pertaining to Pentecostalism, try this link!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch11.htm

MEE

 

That's a joke.
No doctrine has ever been "lost" to the church.

Jesus promised:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jude adomonished:
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

No doctrine was ever lost. Doctrines were corrupted by the Catholic Church and by cults, but that never affected the true believers down throughout the ages. Don't be deceived into thinking that the Catholic Church has been the custodian of the "Truth" throughout the centuries. It has not. It has been a channel of doctrinal heresy.
God's truth has always been preserved through every generation by believers who love the truth of the Word of God and obey it. This doctrine of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit," as taught by Charismatics today was never lost because it never was. Period. It was invented around the beginning of the 20th century. It is a man-made doctrine. The baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking of tongues was not invented until the beginning of the 20th century. It is an invented modern day doctrine, unknown before this time. It is not a Biblical doctrine, and thus never lost--just invented.
DHK

 

DHK said it well, no doctrine has ever been "lost" in the church.

The Bible is clear, these things were supposed to cease, it never speaks of them being "lost" or "hidden away" or going "underground" or ever coming back again after having faded to begin with.

That is a serious issue that a person who believes this doctrine needs to address. The fact that each and every founder of the Pentecostal movement referred to this as a renewal, as something new, a different way, proves that up until their time, what they were doing was unheard of in any church. Not even they had any examples to compare it to, nor did they expect to! There is no scriptural teaching to back up the resurgance of such activity.

Paul doesn't say they will be hidden for a time, they will be locked away for awhile, or lost to the church until they are revived. He says they will cease, be stilled, and pass away.

My PC Study Bible defines these words as follows:

cease entirely idle

stilled restrain, quit desist, come to an end

pass away to be entirely idle

Not one passage in Scripture claims that this will only happen for a time, especially for the length of time in which they did cease. The wording used in the Scripture confirms that when they do cease (as they have) they will cease completely (entirely idle, come to an end).

In fact, the Bible tells us "when" they will be cease. They will cease when and only when that which is perfect is come. They are no longer necessary because they were done away with when we received that which is perfect, the Word of God.

~Lorelei

 

SMM,

The that which is perfect is the completed Word of God. The spiritual gifts were given to help the New Testament Church understand the New Covenant of grace. Once those who were gifted with this special knowledge and wisdom put that information into words, the gifts began to cease. Once the NT as we know it today was compiled, the purpose for the gifts ceased. We no longer need to be given a word of wisdom, all the wisdom that we need can be found in the Complete Word of God.

Those who believe the gifts have ceased do not believe the Power of the Spirit has ceased nor do they believe that God can not heal. They do, however believe that God does not choose to do that any longer through the use of man gifted with these special abilities. This has been confirmed with the cessation of these gifts throughout the history of the church.

I do not want to fight, what I want is to expose the truth. The Bible says that love rejoices with the truth and so I feel it is loving to share these truths with others. I also posted with honesty and integrity and I would hope that you would realize that. Do we have to agree in doctrine in order to be properly motivated to share our beliefs?

You brought up the early revivalists and I had to respond to that. I too, used to think that the gifts were still in existance, and it was not until I realized that Pentecostalism was a new religion in which the founders did not teach that thier gifts had been in existance since the birth of the church that I realized I was wrong. I found out that they were teaching that what they were experiencing was "new" or a "renewal" of the NT church, but not that the gifts have ALWAYS existed. I began searching the Scripture and found that the gifts had indeed ceased, but I was still afraid to "say" it for fear I would be blaspheming the Spirit. Then I read a book called "Fire From Heaven" by Harvey Cox. When I read what some of the Pentecostal founders said and believed I could not believe it! I then began to research what they said, what they wrote and I then began to see the truth. These people were seeking something and they found something but that something was not Scritpural. If you study the early revivalists you will see that they never taught that this was the way things always had been. You even admit that by stating some of thier opinions...that these doctrines had been "lost." The problem with that belief is that it can not be backed up by Scripture. To then change your mind and say they were always in existance can not be backed up with History. You are now left with one choice. Continue to believe in it because you want to, or realize that this is a man-made religion and a fairly new one at that.

Those are the facts. Can you prove them wrong?

~Lorelei

 

MEE,

I know you post that page alot but there are several problems with the content in it. To say that a person believed in or spoke in tonuges does not prove that the gifts as given in the book of acts have always existed. This link shows nothing of what they actually taught that this meant, it makes no mention of what other doctrines they taught, nothing to show me that simply because a person said something about the Holy Spirit or tongues, means they were always in existance.

The fact that those who started the Pentecostal movement did not at the time believe the gifts had always existed proves to me that they did not.

In fact, this page links back to the United Pentecostal Church. Thier attempt to say the gifts have always been in existance contradicts their earlier teachings to the contrary. It appears to me that they are trying to "change their mind" simply because they know that thier own personal history proves the gifts had indeed ceased.

The United Pentecostal Church says on thier webstie:

Charles Parham was the founder of that movement and he was the first person to EVER teach that speaking in tongues was the evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. One of his pupils William Seymour led the Azusa Street Revival. Seymore, like Parham taught that this pentecostal experience was part of the "latter rain" in which God was bringing the Pentecostal power "back" to the church. None of these people ever beleived that these gifts had been in existance since the times of the NT church.

You can find a full explanation and excerpts from thier own writings at this site

The History of Pentecostalism

So why then, is the site you linked to trying to prove what it's own founders never taught?

~Lorelei

 

SMM,

I do understand, believe me I do. My husband (a former pentecostal) had to deal with what you are experiencing when my daughter was born with Down Syndrome and a congential heart defect that required her to undergo open heart surgery at the age of 2 1/2 months. He found out that it was not his lack of faith that caused her to be that way, but it took true Faith to trust in God through that time. No amount of "faith" can make God change his mind. Faith has no power, only the one we have faith in.

What we forget is that God has promised us peace and that He has promised us joy and he has promised to heal our spirits. If these people are christians they are in a better place. The flesh and this life here on earth offered them nothing. Do you believe the words of Paul, that to be with Christ is far better? We need to quit believing the lie of the world, that our physical well being and a long life on the earth is the most important things! Sure, we want to stay healthy, but we also have to take responsibility for our health. I can hardly blame God for getting cancer if I am a smoker or I can hardly blame God for diabetes if I eat an unhealthy high sugar diet. And if God takes me home, whether from my own poor choices or due to no fault of my own, I want you all to rejoice, for being with Christ IS the better thing!

Now is not the time for me to saying these things. You are emotionally attached and mourning someone you love. I will pray for God to use this time to teach you his love and compassion. I pray that you will read His Word to find the comfort He has to offer. He promised us that He has given us all that we need for life and godliness, may He comfort you through this time.

God Bless

~Lorelei

 

SMM, not need to apologize! You have a right to express your feelings.

BTW, how did you like the research, in the link, that I provided? Great wasn't it!

The baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues, still exists!


PROOF:
Acts 2:39) For the promise (Holy Ghost/Spirit) is unto you, (Jews) and to your children, and to all that are afar off, (everyone) even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Isn't God still calling?

MEE