Europe, are you nuts?

Republicans fraud a lot thanks to the voting machines they have insisted on having in many places. The Free Press offers the following sworn statements from public hearings held at the Franklin County Courthouse November 15:

Janine Smith-White, Youngstown:
“I went to my polling place approximately about 9:45 to vote. I waited, I would say, 30 minutes in a line. When I did get to my machine, I pushed John Kerry and my vote immediately jumped up to George Bush. After I started screaming about them cheating again, the aide hurried up and came over and said, oh, that's been happening a lot. Just go ahead and push John Kerry again and I'm saying, you say that's been happening a lot and it hasn't been corrected? Yes, but we can't do anything about it. So I did push John Kerry again and the vote did stay on John Kerry. Even though I completed my voting and after I went over my ballot and I pushed the vote button, I'm still not sure that I voted for John Kerry because, I mean, did my first vote that went to George Bush count or did John Kerry count.”

Monica Justo, Columbus:
“I ran 6 wards for the Kerry campaign in the Clintonville corridor. At 8:00 -- my precinct location was 19H -- it is run out of the Southwick Funeral Home by Bill Good. Bill Good is a Republican. At 8:00 in the morning, he went out to the people in line. There was already over an hour wait at this time and informed them that they all needed to get out of line and move their cars because he had a funeral coming. . . . According to the Franklin County Board of Elections, it was their fault for not verifying that business was not being held on that day, that they needed to inform them of that.”

Tom Kessel, Bexley:
“. . .in precincts 4 A and 4 C in Bexley. What it was is Republican challengers got there about 7:30 in the morning. Precinct 4 C was going fine, so I watched her. On three different occasions, I caught her sitting at the table with the poll workers. Each time I had to go up there and say, excuse me, you're not allowed here, you know, you're not allowed to be sitting there. She was not challenging it. She was talking and kibitzing and working with the poll workers. I don't know. One time I went outside, I came back in, she was actively going over some sort of computerized list she had with the precinct judge in precinct 4A in Bexley. One of the three machines went down and they were not able to get the tape out of it and the cartridge at the end of the day. Later on, when I got the poll -- data from Franklin County poll workers, that machine which had the lowest numbers of votes had the highest percentage of Bush votes. The other two machines were coming back 30 percent for Bush. This one came back 40 percent for Bush. I don't know. Also, they sealed up their provisional ballots before I had a chance to count them and let them know how much provisional ballots were there. Also, she signed off as an official witness at the end of the day, even though she was a Republican worker. I was met with open hostility from the workers in precinct 4 A in Bexley. They let me know in no uncertain terms that they were Bush people.”

And to think that the US is asking Ukraine to recount all the votes! That is looking at the speck in someone's eye and not see the wood tree!

Corinne

 

Now I understand, finally, why so many of my countrymen have such a problem with the French .

Your contention about the 2000 Florida vote is rediculous, full of "what ifs" and "maybes".

Is Michael Moore your only source?

My opinion of the French is changing quickly.

Europeans cannot even work out how they are going to be represented in the European Parliament under the new "constitution." Heaven forbid that they follow the American example of a bi-cameral legislature with one house basd on population and equal representation for each State in the other. I have never seen such confusion as this mess.

Just wait until they try to elect a true European executive

Talk about a joke!

 

They do however, produce excellent food and wine, Roger.

Yours in Christ

Matt

<edited in error and erased, was supposed to be a quote >

[ December 02, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

The only think that is sure is that a statewide official recount was not allowed by the Supreme Court and therefore all the maybes and ifs on both sides count for nothing, as Bush was proclaimed the winner and nothing could change that.

The European constitution has not even been approved yet and you are blaming Europe for not being organised? When it is ratified and things are ironed out, let us see how it works. Such organisations are not built in one day, it takes time for countries to agree. A strong unified Europe at this stage is still a vision for most europeans, not really a reality. It has nothing to do with our present governments, which are all different anyway, and the French are not to blame since they've had no control over how how these governments were put in power.

Imagine the USA with states governed by monarchies, direct presidential suffrage, parliament elected prime ministers, all doted with a lot of conflicting laws and regulations, I'd like to see how you would make it work.

But whatever time it will take, it will be done, because it is the future.

Corinne

 

Interesting points. I agree it wasn't just the French that helped you to gain your independence, and your parallels with Vietnam are appropriate: in the end, Parliament couldn't be bothered to go on spending the amounts of money needed to win the war; plus, there was a significant minority of opinion in Britain that said the Americans and their cause was right and actually agreed with the Patriots. But the intervention by the French and Spanish on the side of the Americans plus the 'armed neutrality' of the Dutch and Russians (which didn't help us either, particularly on the trade front which in turn 'helped' the business interests in Parliament to stop funding the war) was highly significant too...

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, the reference to 'Frau Windsor' was to our Queen, who is of course of German origin, as have all our monarchs been since 1714, including the Patriots' nemesis, George III as this sketch from 'Blackadder' illustrates (Capt Darling is being interrogated by Capt Blackadder on suspicion of being a spy in WWI):-

DARLING: But I'm as British as Queen Victoria!

BLACKADDER: So, your father's half German, your mother's German and you're married to a German.

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Edited for spelnig and p'u@nct"ua,ti;on- twice ]

[ December 02, 2004, 06:58 AM: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

 

And Michael Moore is not my only source, it is not even one of my usual sources, I rarely go to his website, he is not a factor here, believe me. I can read english, I am educated enough to find sources in all sorts of legitimate places, on both sides of the equation.

Corinne

 

Why do you think everyone questions your intellegence? I only question your vehement anti-American slant in your posts. The same way I question anti-French bias in the posts of my countrymen.

Lets see how smoothly your european consitution works. Since we are going to mock supposed actions of individual US states, let us mention Ireland and the Nice treaty. In a referundum the Irish people rejected it clearly. Due to pressure from Brussels the result was pure and simply discounted (the excuse was "low voter turnout") and the Irish people were told to try it again! Fortunatley, under thinly veiled threats form Brussels they "got it right" on the second try. This is only the start!

Can you explain representation in the European parliament according to the Dublin treaty? How is your Union insuring that small states have the same rights as the mega-states like France?

It appears my Michael Moore comment hit sore spot .

 

Not a wine drinker Matt, but I do love the food, love being there, and like most of the French people I have met.

 

I have no particular problem with the EU, nor Britain's membership of it as a concept (I'm not one of those evangelicals who goes around gerbilling that it's the antichrist or a Catholic Plot(TM)), nor do I have any particular attachment (doctrinal or otherwise) to Britain being preserved in aspic in its current form for all eternity (it's only been in its current form since 1922, as any self-respecting Irishman will tell you, Roger ). What I do have a massive problem with is the sclerotic nature of the EU and the massive democratic deficit within its institutional framework.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

I agree - I do not think the EU is the Great Evil, AntiChrist, or anyhting of the sort. It has HUGE problems, is a mess of confusion, and functions poorly.

What was supposed to be an economic powerhouse is facing severe consequences of the weak dollar policy. If it continues every country in the world will be "shopping" in the US because goods are so cheap there now. The euro is only strong today because America has made it strong in order to help the US economy. I love the threats the ECB is throwing out, they are powerless against the dollar and everyone in Europe knows it. The US still dicatates world monetary policy - like it or not.

I hope you keep your pound Matt so that you can continue to set your own economic policies and not have them dicated by America.

 

Is Europe going to do this for their own Executive?

Is it true that your president only received 19.88% of the votes in the first round of the last election? Does that mean that he is not the first choice of 80.12% of the Frendh people?

[ December 02, 2004, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]

 

I am not anti-american at all, I am just anti-Bush. That is what you do not understand about Europeans. A lot of us love America and what it stands for, we just do not like the Bush Administration and what it is doing to your liberties.

Please understand that there is a difference between America and Bush just like there is a difference between Church and God.

Corinne

 

The Constitution does not fully exist yet, it needs to be ratified by all countries and that is not yet the case. When it does exist, we can have that conversation again as I am not going to speculate on it.

And I have no sore spots. I am just fed up of seeing Michael Moore pop up whenever I post to a non-liberal. He is not at all a reference for the majority of liberals that I know, and being into politics myself, I know a lot of them. At best, we like his films. But personally I think he went too far in 2000 when he supported Nader against Gore, and many americans think like me and hold it against him.

corinne

 

I am as nearly as anti-Bush as you are - that doesn't mean that I have to attack the entire American electoral process. I do understand that many europeans only dislike Bush, but your hatred of Bush led you to falsly attack the whole process. If Kerry had won the elecotral college but lost the popular vote I think that you would not have called the system antiquated.

And since this thread is supposed to be about Europe - how do you defend the fact that 80% of the French people opposed your president in the last election and the only reason he had such a majority in the run-off is that his opponent was a fascist?

 

Then you are anti-(about 51%-55% of us) including most evangelical Christians.

What he's doing to our liberties? It is the liberals in this country who are determined to suppress the free speech of conservative Christians. It is the liberals who want to strip us of our property rights. It is the liberals who want to take away our right to keep and bear arms (original intent: to be the last check against out of control government). It is the liberals who insist on denying the right to life to 1.4 million babies per year. Should I go on?

I don't particularly care for the Patriot Act. I hope that it gets fixed or gets full exposure. However, American governments going all the way back to the beginning have limited rights when the national security was threatened. I don't like it but I like the prospects of suitcase nukes destroying our top 10 cities even less.

Yes and the thing that liberals most often miss is that there is a difference between God and government.

Why do Europeans hate Bush so much? You expect American's to lead then complain when we do. To a great extent, PA Jim and the Constitution Party have a point. We should spend our money protecting ourselves, drop out of international trade and environmental treaties, cut off foreign aid, and let you all figure it out for yourselves.

I know I have just about had my fill of the attitude that we get to supply the money and the blood and "the world" gets to tell us what to do. Of all the nations that have reason to appreciate the US, France should be close to the top. But how were we repaid? They conspired with Saddam to corrupt the "Oil-for-Food" Program and apparently were continuing to sell military parts and technology though those activites were banned.

I can tell you that the real American ideals espoused by many here including folks like PA Jim and embodied to a fair extent by the Constitution Party are far more different from Europe than Bush's moderate conservatism.

 

I think if you look at the "red" counties as opposed to the "blue" counties you will find that your the point you are trying to imply does not hold water.
[/quote]

This is incorrect; the blues states hold a fair bit of industry, and a well-developed infrastructure that needs little improvment per capita. In contrast, the red states are lightly populated and contribute far less taxes than what they take in in pork.

I found your post about Democratic voter fraud amusing, since Republicans are the ones who benefit more from the disenfranchisment of poor and black voters, and did so by the millions in both the 2000 and 2004 elections.

 

Ever hear of the Articles of Confederation? That was our mess.

 

Good point.

 

Is Europe going to do this for their own Executive?

Is it true that your president only received 19.88% of the votes in the first round of the last election? Does that mean that he is not the first choice of 80.12% of the Frendh people? </font>[/QUOTE]If you say so it's got to be true - LOL. This is due to the fact that in France, for the presidential election, like for other elections for that matter, we have two rounds, within two weeks of each other (unless a clear majority for a candidate is obtained). Unlike in your country, we have more than two parties with eligible candidates, and if they want to be elected they have to form alliances and make concessions. No party can rule alone. And traditionally the French like to have a clear counter-power to the person who is elected, which explains why we had a socialist president and a conservative prime minister for so long (Mitterand and Chirac being the best example). US equivalent would see Bush having to choose a democrat for Vice President. Only hick is that your vice president does not govern, whereas in France ours does. But you get the idea. Keeps people in check.

You are right in saying that Chirac was not the first choice of most French when he was reelected. But there was no eligible socialist because the French socialist party was in total shambles. This gave people the opportunity to make a strong statement in the first round: almost 25% people voted for Le Pen, extreme-right candidate, to warn the government that issues like internal security, terrorism, were important; half of these people knew very well that their vote was a contestation vote, they knew it was impossible for Le Pen to go through in the second round.

In the second round, socialists, communists, the entire left and even extreme left, voted for Chirac to prevent Le Pen from being President.

This two-rounds system enables the voters to make valid statements, and warn the candidates of what would happen if they went too far without the assent of the people who elected them.

You do not have that luxury in the United States and it is a pity.

Corinne

 

We do have a similar power - voting for third party candidates. Sadly, most of us won't do that .

Actually, here are LePen's numbers in the first round - 4,805,307 (16.86%).

I don't think I would want a ruler who only 20% REALLY wanted to be president.

And you think the Americans were wrongly done by when Bush only got 51+% of the votes