"The Bible and the Bible Only"

I just want you Baptists to stop and think about this... also in addition to reading this below, please go to [LINK REMOVED] and click on the link called "Rome's Challenge".

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Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church, and declare that Protestants by observing the Sunday are recognizing her power. In the Catholic Catechism of Christian Religion, in answer to a question as to the day to be observed in obedience to the fourth commandment, this statement is made: "During the old law, Saturday was the day sanctified; but the church, instructed by Jesus Christ, and directed by the Spirit of God, has substituted Sunday for Saturday; so now we sanctify the first, not the seventh day. Sunday means, and now is, the day of the Lord."

As the sign of the authority of the Catholic Church, papist writers cite "the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; . . . because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin."--Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine, page 58. What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church--"the mark of the beast"?

The Roman Church has not relinquished her claim to supremacy; and when the world and the Protestant churches accept a sabbath of her creating, while they reject the Bible Sabbath, they virtually admit this assumption. They may claim the authority of tradition and of the Fathers for the change; but in so doing they ignore the very principle which separates them from Rome--that "the Bible, and the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants." The papist can see that they are deceiving themselves, willingly closing their eyes to the facts in the case. As the movement for Sunday enforcement gains favor, he rejoices, feeling assured that it will eventually bring the whole Protestant world under the banner of Rome.

Romanists declare that "the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church."--Mgr. Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, page 213.


Links to other denominational teachings not allowed. Links removed.

[ April 22, 2005, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

We worship on The Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. Saint Paul OKd it.

Bible 0nly? you gots to be kidding. Bible and Mrs White.

Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church, and declare that Protestants by observing the Sunday are recognizing her power

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I am not sure of the Roman Catholics, but I know that the SDA's adamantly accuse the Catholics of doing so. The Bible itself teaches that the believers began to meet on the first day of the week which has nothing to do with the RCC. Some here have been made biased by some denominational teaching, instead of searching the Scriptures.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
DHK

The RCC "admits" it did several things that it never did -- like creating the cannon (Scriptures came from the church, not the church from the scriptures, therefore, the church has the ability to determine teh canon)

Originally posted by NateT:
The RCC "admits" it did several things that it never did -- like creating the cannon (Scriptures came from the church, not the church from the scriptures, therefore, the church has the ability to determine teh canon)

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How true that is. They even "discovered" that there was a trinity or triune God in the Bible.

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NateT:
The RCC "admits" it did several things that it never did -- like creating the cannon (Scriptures came from the church, not the church from the scriptures, therefore, the church has the ability to determine teh canon)

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How true that is. They even "discovered" that there was a trinity or triune God in the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Discovered Wasn't that around the second or third century?

MEE

Originally posted by MEE:
Discovered Wasn't that around the second or third century?

MEE

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No, MEE. It's been in the Bible all along. We don't reject doctrine on the basis of our inability to comprehend it, rather we accept it by faith whether we understand it or not. A finite man is not able to comprehend an infinite God. So the excuse, "But I don't understand..." is no excuse at all for not believing the doctrne of the trinity which is most assuredly taught in the Bible, and most assuredly understood as humanly as possible by the Apostles who taught it.
DHK

Here is what Catholics really believe on these topics:

Sabbath and the Lord's Day

Catechism of the Catholic Church

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

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Scripture

Catechism of the Catholic Church

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

IV. THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE

120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.90 This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.91

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Trinity

Catechism of the Catholic Church

The formation of the Trinitarian dogma

249 From the beginning, the revealed truth of the Holy Trinity has been at the very root of the Church's living faith, principally by means of Baptism. It finds its expression in the rule of baptismal faith, formulated in the preaching, catechesis and prayer of the Church. Such formulations are already found in the apostolic writings, such as this salutation taken up in the Eucharistic liturgy: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all."81

250 During the first centuries the Church sought to clarify her Trinitarian faith, both to deepen her own understanding of the faith and to defend it against the errors that were deforming it. This clarification was the work of the early councils, aided by the theological work of the Church Fathers and sustained by the Christian people's sense of the faith.

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Originally posted by DHK:
...the doctrne of the trinity which is most assuredly taught in the Bible, and most assuredly understood as humanly as possible by the Apostles who taught it.

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Where did the Apostles teach the Trinity? (I'm fully Trinitarian, BTW). The Trinity is "most assuredly taught in the Bible" and was "most assuredly understood as humanly as possible by the Apostles" because that happens to be an area where Protestants agree with Catholics and Orthodox, but find an area of disagreement with those two ancient Churches, e.g. the Real Presence, and that's not in the Bible and the apostles never taught any such a thing.

I wonder how many unbiased persons would say that the Trinity is clearly in the Bible, and the Real Presence is clearly not in the Bible?

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church...

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Doesn't the Church (whatever its exact nature and composition) have the authority to bind and loose? Why wouldn't this change come under that authority?

Originally posted by FLMike:
Where did the Apostles teach the Trinity? (I'm fully Trinitarian, BTW). The Trinity is "most assuredly taught in the Bible" and was "most assuredly understood as humanly as possible by the Apostles" because that happens to be an area where Protestants agree with Catholics and Orthodox, but find an area of disagreement with those two ancient Churches, e.g. the Real Presence, and that's not in the Bible and the apostles never taught any such a thing.

I wonder how many unbiased persons would say that the Trinity is clearly in the Bible, and the Real Presence is clearly not in the Bible?

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1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
--I don't accept the argument that this is a "spurious" verse. I don't believe it is.

Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Did they believe in the deity of all three persons? Scripture tells plainly that they did.
Over and over again John states the deity of Christ. (John 1:1,14; 8:58; 10:30, etc.), just to name a few)

Peter clearly identifies the Holy Spirit, not only as a person, but as God.

Acts 5:3-5 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The person of the Holy Ghost is identified as God. One is without excuse for not believing these things. Nature itself declares them unto us:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
DHK

Originally posted by FLMike:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Roman Catholics acknowledge that the change of the Sabbath was made by their church...

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Doesn't the Church (whatever its exact nature and composition) have the authority to bind and loose? Why wouldn't this change come under that authority? </font>[/QUOTE]That is the RC claim and the logic used to defend it.

ON the other hand (as the debate here shows)many non-Catholics do not appeal the Catholic argument at all for the change.

So the fact that history does or does not show the Catholic origin of the change would not matter to them as along as the Bible supports the change.

But as for your point about the RC argument on this same topic -- here is an interesting source that is from a more current point in time ...

The Catholic commentary on the Baltimore catechism post
Vatican ii explains that keeping Sunday is in obedience to the Sabbath commandment. Catholics attend "in obedience to the third commandment of God 'remember thou keep holy the Lord's day'"
((from "The Faith Explained" pg 241.))

The Faith Explained (a commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on

Page 242 that changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

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page 243

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the o.t it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

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Ten Commandments -

Note: Catholic teaching embraces the authority of the 10 commandments - all ten, and makes them obligatory for all Catholics.

"God has made the task somewhat easier for us by spelling out in the ten commandments our principal duties to God himself, to our neighbor and to ourselves. The first three commandments (not two but three) outline for us our duties to God; the other seven indicate our principal duties to our neighbor...

the ten commandments were given by God originally, engraved on two slabs of stone, to Moses on mount Sinai. They were ratified by our Lord Jesus Christ "do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. "i have not come to abolish but to fulfill".

Jesus fulfilled the law in two ways. First of all by pinpointing our duties.. Secondly, Jesus clarified our duties..

It should be pointed out that the commandments of the church are not new and additional burdens placed on us over and above God's ten commandments...here then are the divine directives which tell us how we shall fulfill our nature as human beings and how we shall achieve our destiny as redeemed souls: the ten commandments of God, the seven spiritual and the seven corporal works of mercy and the commandments of God's church".
((The Faith Explained pg 191-192)).

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. A question was asked by a
Catholic to Catholic digest's fr Ken Ryan in sept 93.fr. Ken ryan -

Catholic Digest Sept 93 "on a sight-seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist
shrine. Once we passed through the gate there were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told
me they represented different aspects of life and that people offer food to the Buddhas and ask
for favors. It all seems so wacky, yet it made me think of our Catholic praying to the dead and
wonder whether they(the Buddhists) have anything like our ten commandments to guide them.
Here were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the
shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?"

fr. Ken Ryan "very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, as it does with us. Some Muslims say prayers on rosary-like beads just as we do...the pagan Romans prayed, each family to it's
own household Gods, just as we do to our dead saints.

In old testament times the gentiles had local Gods for their town or country and our Christian saints eventually supplanted them. The Hebrew of course had the mission of wiping out such heathen worship with the worship of
the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they never
set up any of their own (people as persons to pray to) ... "just what those people in your shrine visit
were doing is hard to define...it most probably was some kind of acknowledgement of spiritual power
in the world superior to themselves, stemming from 'natural' religion. Natural religion is the reverence
that people have toward the supernatural, which can be attained by the use of natural, undistorted reason
alone. You ask about the Buddhists having anything like the ten commandments to go by.
Only
the specific seventh-day being held holy would be beyond the reach of ordinary right reason."

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But as I said - these RC quotes are not meant to provide motivation/incentive/proof of any kind to a non-RC Christian audience.

They should however be of interest to a Catholic reader.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
Discovered Wasn't that around the second or third century?

MEE

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No, MEE. It's been in the Bible all along. We don't reject doctrine on the basis of our inability to comprehend it, rather we accept it by faith whether we understand it or not. A finite man is not able to comprehend an infinite God. So the excuse, "But I don't understand..." is no excuse at all for not believing the doctrne of the trinity which is most assuredly taught in the Bible, and most assuredly understood as humanly as possible by the Apostles who taught it.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Well DHK, if you "don't understand it" how am I to believe in your doctrine of the trinity if you can't explain it?

Remember, I'm limited as to what I can say about me believing in one God or posting any links.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "I don't understand it!"...it seem as though we have the same problem.

See ya later! Going to a Bible study on the
"Prophecies of St. Malachy."

MEE

Bob,

I never asked about or mentioned the Catholics. Does the Church (however you choose to define it) have the power to bind and loose, or doesn't it? Please, please don't bring Catholicism into your answer.

In the quote - I showed "Someone" making that point.

As for what "I believe" - I believe that "NOT one LINE or jot" will change from the Law of God until all is completed.

That means we have to love our neighbor as ourselves JUST like HE said in Lev 19:18. WE have no authority to "change His Word.

We have to love God with all of our heart just like HE said in Deut 6:5 -- we have no authority to "change His Word".

As James said - you have to be a doer of the law of God - and not its "judge".

See?

In Christ,

Bob

The Trinity is a logical construct from the available data.

We tal about lots of things we don't understand such a gravity and quantum mechanics.

Originally posted by MEE:
Well DHK, if you "don't understand it" how am I to believe in your doctrine of the trinity if you can't explain it?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, "I don't understand it!"...it seem as though we have the same problem.
MEE

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Understanding is not the problem MEE; it never has been. The problem is unbelief. There are many things that you don't understand and yet you believe.

The same was true with Nicodemus, a ruler and teacher of the Jews. But at least he was more teachable.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus didn't understand how the wind came and went, and yet he believed it. He could sense the effect of the wind.
That happens in everday life with many things. Not everyone can explain how the flick of switch will turn on the light, but they believe it will. They can see the effect.

I can see the effect of believing the Bible, in my life, and the lives of others. It is called faith. There are many things in it that I cannot understand. As I said, I (like all others) am finite. God is infinite. How can a finite mind understand an infinite God. You are asking too much!

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Nate,

"The RCC "admits" it did several things that it never did -- like creating the cannon (Scriptures came from the church, not the church from the scriptures, therefore, the church has the ability to determine teh canon)"

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Yep. All of the books of scriptures were all written before the book of Acts generation had died...yet the Catholic Church, who didnt come to be until the 3rd century, arrogantly and pridefully proclaims that if it werent for them we would not have the scriptures.

Unbelieveable.

DHK,

"They even "discovered" that there was a trinity or triune God in the Bible."

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It stuns the mind, doesnt it.

God bless,

Mike

Sometimes our antagonism toward one group or another, and especially the Church of Rome, stands between truth and error. Credit must be given to the early Romish Church for the preservation of scripture and the development of theology. The church was not always corrupt. We give much credit to Augustine as the forerunner of Calvinism, as one example. The canon was established by a "Catholic" council. Prior to this time there were many scriptures and fragments spread among the churches and including false doctrine.

I am as anti-Rome as anyone, but prefer to accept historical truth over my prejudices.

Cheers,

Jim