What is Sin?

That is fine Briguy,
I respect your take on this issue. Even if I see it differently. We might have to agree to diagree? I don't know what you'd call a person who says go ahead and sin...because you got saved years ago so your covered? False Prophet? Once Saved Always Saved???? My sister was asked if she would take the mark of the beast, if it came down to not having anything to eat, buy sell...ect and she said well since she was saved it wouldn't be no problem. (Thats the OSAS mentality that is scary)

So, is there a dividing line as to when one can lose their salvation?

I think so. You can get saved and then live like the devil (and not repent) and exspect to into heaven? Paul said in 1Cor.15:31....to me I understand that hes saying he dies to sin daily...sin is everywhere we go... we as christians choose not to participate in it. If we do mess up and find ourself in a week moment, we need to repent. Right? What happens if we sin then say oh well "OSAS" I'm covered......and fall deeper in sin?

1Cor.15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

BTW, glad to see you back in the Fourms~
Music4Him

 

Something to consider, though...

Would a *really* converted Christian sin willfully after the flesh?

See here's the rub...

I see the theoretical possibility of loss of salvation...

But, I simply can't fathom why someone exposed to the pure unadulterated love of Jesus would want to hurt Him so badly as to sin willfully and intentionally kick Him out of their life...

I believe in most cases the major part of the disagreement is over semantics, culture, and viewpoint...

If you are a hyper-calvinist then, if I understand them correctly, you have no choice but to be saved because God ordained it so...

I guess that could be called 'Absolute Predestination"?

The *real* question is this...

Is a particular person Saved Today?

Do they intend to be Saved Tommorrow?

Or, are they only 'testing the waters of salvation'? (Like so many are 'testing Marriage' today!)

There is a 'tension' in Scripture that pits not being 'Settled on one's lees' against 'resting in Jesus'...

When we see one of God's Ambassadors acting in a way that brings shame to the Name of Heaven and Our Lord...

I shudder because they fend off questions about their being saved with religious talk but live in a way that demonstrates no Heart Change has taken place...

 

Part of your original quote:

Yes, I would disagree with this statement for a couple of reasons. The law as enforced even in the States is: "ignorance of the law is no excuse." You cannot claim ignorance of the speed limit if you get a speeding ticket. You will still pay the fine.
And so the Bible says "sin is a transgression of the law," whether you have a knowledge of it or not--whether one "knows the difference between good and evil" or not.
Even if you don't know the difference, the law leaves provision for "sins of ignorance."

Leviticus 4:1-3 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

A sacrifice for sin still had to be offered though the sin was committed through ignorance.
Sin is a transgression of the law. Ignorance is no excuse.
DHK

 

music4Him

I think you are right about the attitude of someone who says, “oh well ‘OSAS’ I'm covered.” They maybe don’t really understand grace and have a faulty conception of salvation. One would think that if they were truly saved, then the Lord would have given them a more mature understanding.

I think OSAS is correct, but I don’t like the term, “perseverance of the saints” is a better term and the doctrinal description of it leads to a better understanding of grace. Those who are truly regenerated (saved) will continue in the process of sanctification, shun sin and humble themselves with appreciation to the Lord for the tremendous gift they have been given. Our assurance is not in ourselves, but in the One who keeps us by His power. We will still sin. That’s why we needed and continually require the Savior. He will lead us away from sin, but we must, and will, cooperate if we are truly His.

 

What is sin?

Any willful action, thought and/or attitude we take that is not in the will of God is a sin.

Someone wondered whether a 2 year old can sin. I don't think age has anything to do with it. If someone knows what is right and does wrong, it is sin. That's sorta the definition. We teach our children right and wrong. If we don't we are accountable and are sinning. A 2 year old, hopefully, has learned something about right and wrong, though a 2 year old is not held accountable for sin.

 

Hey Nils!! How you doing?? Hope all is well. Did you ever get settled in a good church?

About OSAS, I have always believed that "eternal life" is forever, otherwise it would not be eternal. John 3:16 is almost so simple that we tend to jump over it for deeper verses but it says eternal or everlasting and that has to be forever.

Hi M4H, Hope you are well! We always agree to disagree don't we??? (ha ha). What you describe is very interesting and is a big reason good people like you don't like the idea of OSAS. It would be easy to think why should I try so hard as a Christian to not sin, love God by loving others, give what I can, and then another Christian does very little and maybe even falls into a sin and they get to be with Jesus the same as me. If what we did or do had direct salvation merit then grace would not be grace. Grace is void of works (i.e. what we do). God sees the heart directly and men see the works. To us someone may seem Un-Christian by what they do but God sees the heart. David and Peter are great examples. David murdered and Peter denied and I know no one who believes these great saints are not in heaven. God sees the heart despite the bone-head things we do, He does not see the heart by the bone-head things we do. Once we are born again it is forever. Nothing in nature can be unborn. In fact unborn is just not possible in any sense. Birth cannot be reversed. Maybe I should say I am ORBARB (Once Re-Born Always Re-Born) not OSAS.

SMM, I will respond to you a little later.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
--As far as the knowledge of right and wrong is concerned, the Bible teaches that even infants knnow this. Most parents will agree that even an infant has the ability to deceive. The Bible is quite clear: "they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Comprehension of the gospel, of salvation, however, is an entirely different thing. Baptism also has nothing to do with salvation. But normally a child of three does not understand the gospel, but for some it is not impossible. We talk of an age of accountability--an age where an individual becomes accountable for understanding the gospel enough that he will either receive or reject it.
DHK

 

This is correct. But mankind "started" out in full and open communion with God - on the 7th day of Creation week mankind had his first full day with God in worship and communion. The law was know to man then - but at the fall the sinful nature took over - and total depravity was the "default condition" of mankind.

The fact that we still have sin today - shows that we still have the Law of God defining sin. As you point out "transgression of the Law is sin".

You are correct again. The Word of God is "still true" even though we read it out of Leviticus - and it is telling us that infants - born with a sinful nature "need a Savior".

We are blessed by the fact that Christ died for our sin "and not for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" which means that all of those infants that NEED a Savior HAVE a Savior!

So no problem for them in the Kingdom of God.

Agreed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

No, I never said that at all. Most three year olds cannot comprehend the gospel at all. I believe that God would take them to Heaven in his mercy.
I also said:
If you ask for variuos testimonies around the board, you will find the occasional person who will remember being saved at the age of three. It is rare, but it happens. There are a few people that have been smart enough at the age of three to comprehend the gospel and be saved. Is that true of all three year olds? Of course not! Only God knows the heart, and only God knows when a person becomes responsible enough to understand the gospel to make an intelligent decision whether to accept or reject it.
DHK

 

The fact that infants need a savior is established in Romans 5 "For in Adam ALL died" becuase IN Adam all sinned! In Romans 3 we see that the NATURE of the infant and the adult is that of "sin" with "NOT ONE" being righteous.

It is true that infants do not master abstract thought and have no "concept of sin" - but that does not mean that they don't "need" a savior OR that a sinful nature bent toward sin is NOT in need of the new birth!

If an infant were to be born in heaven - apart from the curse of Adam - they would not have a sinful nature. The "need" is there.

However this is not the focus of NT authors when it comes to sin - because it is not a "problem" to be solved or argued for or resolved in the heart of man for salvation. The infant certainly isn't going to be reasoning through it!

The argument in scripture is always IN FAVOR of obedience and opposed to SIN.

So then -- what "defines sin"?

IT is God's Word - His Law. As Paul points out in Romans 7.

Does God's Law place ALL MANKIND under sin? Yes according to Romans 3.

ARE we to let sin be our master by living in rebellion and obeying the god of this world (Eph 2:1-4)?

In John 14 Christ said to HIS people "IF you Love ME -- KEEP My commandments".

Was He arguing for legalism?

In Romans 6 Paul argues that that which you obey -- is your real master.

In Romans 2 Paul makes the case that it is the "DOERS" and not the "HEARERS ONLY" that are justified.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This has nothing to do with the blood of Christ; it has to do with the mercy of Christ. Remember the story of David's adultery with Bathsheba, and the child that was born as a result. The judgement from God was the death of the child. Though David prayed and wept before God that the child would live, the child died anyway. David's response? "He will not come to me; I shall go to him." David was assured that he would see his infant in Heaven. He trusted in a God of mercy.

What do you not understand about salvation? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved." If a person is old enough to beleive, to know who to believe, to know what to believe, to know why to believe, then he can be saved. You can answer your own questions. Can a 3 month old be saved? What do you think? According to the above criteria, NO. But that doesn't mean he won't go to Heaven. I emphasize again, God takes infants to Heaven in his mercy.

Now you have changed the subject completely. We are not talking of infants any longer. We are talking of the Great Commission. All who reject Christ are condemned. The Bible says that the wrath of God abides on them right now (John 3:36). If they do not hear the gospel, the fault lies with the Christian who does not go with the gospel to tell them about Christ.
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature," is a command given to every believer. If they do not hear, it is our fault.
Canada (and America) is just as much a mission field as those countries in Africa and South America. An unsaved person in America is just as unsaved as a Muslim or Hindu in India. The only difference is that in America, we have more opportunity to hear the gospel than people of other nations do.
DHK

 

I can't imagine that any 2 year old has reached the age (or state) of accountability. They are "safe" and will go to be with the Lord if they die.

Like DHK said, God knows our hearts. He is the judge, not us. He will do what is righteous.

[ January 17, 2005, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: Michael52 ]

 

couln't we be sinning just by doing something we don't have peace about?

 

Eladar,
Could you speak more about what you mean by extream because I am finding myself to be extream, atleast that's what my family calls me.---- laughing