Cardinal Manning said...

I guess now you see why "Christians" wonder
about the Roman Catholic church----to say the least.

 

In his famous book Mere Christianity, Lewis makes this statement:

"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg - or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse."



(Quotation corrected)

[ June 16, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Kathryn:

You gave two choices for Christ......Lunatic or Liar.
Actually there are three....Lunatic, Liar or Lord !!

Of course we know the answer to that....Jesus' image cannot be compared to the
suspect nature that the Catholic Church portrays. The church's claims to fame is
found only amongst her own claims; therefore not doctrinally appointed. That leaves
only one option for her.

Those of us who have received the Holy Spirit know that the Lord is real.
The Catholic Church offers a spirit also...It is real to those who it posesses......
none of which is characterized with what it claims to be.

 

Exactly! Both Christ and the Catholic Church make claims that embarrass, disconcert and even outrage those who do not believe the claims. The non-Christian world accepts none of the claims, Catholics accept all of the claims. Both positions are at least consistent. However, non-Catholic Christians accept the claims of Christ (as revealed by the Catholic Church and its canon of scriptures) while rejecting the claims of the Catholic Church. A very inconsistent position that, in order to have any credence, has generated many alternative histories and different explanations as to how and when the Catholic Church either was never the true Church, or stopped being the true Church in (insert date of choice here). That's why it is absolutely critical for so many people to discredit the Catholic Church.

 

Oh, this must be the next edition of "throw a quote out and run!"

Here's my contribution:

As the late Fulton Sheen put it: "There are hundreds of people who hate what THEY think the Catholic Church teaches but less than 10 people hate the Catholic Church for what it REALLY teaches."

God bless,

Grant

 

If you wonder too long, you may get lost!

Okay, so that was a horrible pun.

Yes, I can see why non-Catholics wonder. I can also see why non-Christians wonder about Christians who trust so fully in a man who claimed to be God.

Funny how faith works out!

God bless you,

Grant

 

As for those who tried to downplay Kathryn's post, what she says is absolutely true.

You, yourselves, testify that your salvation hinges on whether or not Christ is the Son of God. If He was not, then there is no hope, and all of this that was written about Him was in vain.

Now, we do not believe that this is so, but those on the outside would just as easily tell us how wrong we are. It is the same way for the Catholic Church; we can only be right or wrong. Just like the testimony of Jesus Christ can only be right or wrong. If He is not who He said he was, then He is a liar and lunatic who would take us away from God.

You don't believe He is a liar. Neither do I.
I don't believe the Catholic Church is a liar or a lunatic. You do.

Both are leaps of faith. Any condemnation of the Catholic Church...you are free to commmit. But I take it in stride, just like I take it in stride when people tell me that Jesus was "just a nice guy."

God bless,

Grant

 

Just for the sake of covering all sides...these men beleived that the Catholic Church "is the Kingdom of the Son of God," and "divinely appointed."

They were simply stating the obvious, just as Jesus Christ is either the Son of God or He is a deceitful, trecherous liar.

I'm banking on Him being the Son of God.

God bless,

Grant

 

Yes, the Catholic Church is not wishy washy. It makes very bold statements about itself, somewhat like St. Paul calling the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth". Takes a lot of nerve or the authority of Jesus Christ. 1Tim 3:15

God Bless

 

It is not inconsistant to dismiss the claims of a church, when that churches doctrines are inconsistant with the teachings of Christ.

~Lorelei

 

"Wondering" gets more people found than lost. "Wandering" is where people get lost! So yes is was at terrible pun! Praise the Lord, let's keep on "Wondering".

 

Paul was NOT speaking of the Catholic church which was yet to be established. He was Talking about "the Christian church" founded upon the 'ROCK' of who and what Jesus is, which is greater than any faction of that Christian Church, regardless of the name or denomination one wants to align themselves under.

 

The actual quote from Lewis above is as follows:

"'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." (C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity)

Rakka, would you please provide references for where Manning & Newman said these things?

 

"It is not inconsistant to dismiss the claims of a church, when that churches doctrines are inconsistant with the teachings of Christ."


A morman, Jw, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Assembly of God, Petecostal, Episcopalian, and 30,000 etc.'s would make this very same statement, yet would not be consistent with eachother while claiming that there interprutations were consistent with the Bible. Seems like there is a whole lot of confusion out there about what the Bible really says. Each only thinks their interprutaion is correct. Of course they can never tell you where they are in error yet each must be in at least one place. My guess is their rejection of the truth of Catholicism forces them in to a whole lot of errant beliefs as demonstarted by Edna's little pole thread. I think it is pretty clear that the starting point of Protestatism is not the Bible "what does the Catholic Church teach. It's wrong so let's see what the Bible teaches."

Blessings

 

He was speaking of the one, holy, catholic, apostolic church founded on the foundation stones of the apostles with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone. The same church He gave the commission to go out and baptise in the name of the father, the son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all he has commanded. This is the faith we are to contend earnestly for.

Yes, the Holy Catholic Church is the same church. Ask the eastern Orthodox Christians, their spiritual fathers were all part of the Holy Catholic Church back then too. It was also the same Church that used and had all the books of the Old Testament. It didn't remove 7 at the Reformation. Jesus and the apostles had these books, so we do too...the Catholic Church that is.

God Bless

[ June 16, 2003, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Yes and the Bible tells us why.

The Bible tells us what kind of men should lead the church.

Nothing here about the fact that the church can encourage others by sound doctrine while being over-bearing and violent. If someone tries to tell you that a murderer was infallible in spite of the blood on his hands, you can rest assured they have thrown sound doctrine out the window.

~Lorelei

 

This is an opinion which cannot be validated. It is my opinion that the Catholic Church started in the fourth century with Emperor Constantine, which I believe has more validity to it than yours.
DHK

 

"If someone tries to tell you that a murderer was infallible in spite of the blood on his hands, you can rest assured they have thrown sound doctrine out the window. "

Better throw those psalms and some of the stuff in kings that David says away then. I don't know of any Popes that had actual blood on their hands. Some used their pronouncements to justify killing. But then the same has happened in Protestantism. Are you aware of the KKK and it's ties to the Baptist Churches? They weren't too nice to Blacks, Jews, and Catholic as I recall.

Hey Caiphus, the high priest at the time of Christ's death spoke infallible words so I think your claim is rather bogus.

John 11:50
nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish."

John 18:14
Now Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was expedient for one man to die on behalf of the people.

Blessings

 

I have heard of this rot all too often. I don't understand why Catholics stand only to condemn themselves. Are you aware that there were Catholics involved (and many of them) in the KKK? Are you aware of the great anti-semitism among Catholics both in the past and in the present. Are you aware of the treatment of the Catholics towards the Blacks during the times of slavery? In a word I call this blatant hypocrisy.
DHK