The Handful?

Great point, Brother Glen. I have never understood why the opponents of the doctrines of God's wonderful grace seem to always want to place limits on how many will be saved by God's free, sovereign grace.

Perhaps it is because in their system of relying on man's fallen free will they believe only a limited number would make the right "choice"?

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

Amen, Brother Glen.

Looks like this subject has been Scripturally handled.

Ken

[ July 08, 2002, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

"Many are called, few are chosen."

Narrow is the road that leads to heaven, and few take it (paraphrase)...

Hell is intended for the Devil, but those who aren't saved go there. Since Christianity makes up less than 1/4 of the population today, it is safe to assume that more people will end up in Hell than in Heaven.

[ July 08, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: ScottEmerson ]

 

Excellent post Bro. Glen!

Scott, it's true most people are not saved today but some of us of Postmill persuasion believe we will see a great worldwide revival resulting in a enormous inbringing of the elect before the Second Coming. China has 1.3 Billion people and could be a spiritual powder keg. It has been said that the 19th Century was England's century and then in the 20th Century was America's century but many believe the baton will be passed to the Chinese Churches and that the 21st century will be China's century. There may be more Christians in China than in the USA at this time!

 

Even so, population studies show that there were many more people who have been alive and are now dead than are alive at this time. The odds are still very small that there will be more people in Heaven than Hell - after all, look at the passages that talk about "few!"

 

What is wonderful about a doctrine of grace that suggests that the Lord damns the majority to Hell. Is this a reason to get our song books out and to begin to praise Him?

 

You keep entertaining the idea the majority of mankind is excluded in election. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don't know how many people are going to be there, but I do know Jesus will not lose one of those who were given to Him by the Father before the foundation of the world (John 6:37-39). John saw a "multitude which no man could number" (Rev. 7:9). Certainly the elect may seem few in every age when compared to the rest of the world, but not so in Heaven. If you want to take the position most Calvinists take, that all the elect will hear the Gospel, the number is even smaller. Those who advocate this position don't have a correct view of the role of the Gospel. They seem to misunderstand the Gospel doesn't make sheep, it feeds them (John 21:15-17).

 

Some "Calvinists" may believe that there will be only a "few" in heaven, but so do some "non-Calvinists." So what's the point? A "few" are a "few" whether they are chosen, or only make it there by the skin of their teeth!

 

Yes but, Arminians don't actually believe any more people make it to heaven, than Calvinists do.

So...what's the difference, whether God 'chose' lots of people to go to hell, or whether He sat back and watched them go of their own free will?

They still go; we all see that many many many people today in our own countries reject Christ...

So, you still have to praise him with all those people going to hell, don't you? And He lets them go...even though He's omnipotent...and according to Scripture doesn't want them to perish...?!

 

Very true.

Ah, but there's a BIG difference!!! He doesn't "sit back and watch them" at all, but He is actively sending His Spirit to convict men to repent. That's a world of difference compared to a God who "chose" lots of people to go to Hell. (And on a logical note: If God's will is effectual, and God wills some people to go to Heaven, then he ipso facto chooses the others to go to Hell.)

They still go; we all see that many many many people today in our own countries reject Christ...

So, you still have to praise him with all those people going to hell, don't you? And He lets them go...even though He's omnipotent...and according to Scripture doesn't want them to perish...?![/QB][/QUOTE]

You've said it yourself - He DOESN'T want anyone to perish. However, He gives all people a choice to follow Him or not. Would you rather praise a God who allowed all men a choice, understanding that some would say no, or praise a God who created some people for the purpose of going to Hell?

I'll choose the former, thanks.

 

Aren't Calvinists the ones accused of being too logical in their system????? Of course, this is bad logic anyway. A positive choice does not render all others positive choice to the contrary. It is a non-choice. When I chose to get married, I chose one. I did not choose all the other to not marry me. I made no statement with regards to all the others. In salvation, God chooses to save some all of his grace. The others he makes no choice with regards to their destiny. They choose their own.

But as has been pointed out, your God created some for the purpose of going to hell becuase he knew that they would reject him and end up there. The only God that avoids this is the God of open theism, which is no God at all. I praise a God who, for some reason I will never understand, chose to save me when I could do nothing for myself.

 

But you did. In marrying your wife, you stated, "I choose this woman" to the exclusion of all other women. Again, if God has an eternal decree, and if all He says is effectual, than those who have not been chosen for salvation have been "chosen" for damnation.

God makes no choice? Wouldn't that affect his sovereignty if he were passive, not making a choice in the matter? If God is indeed the primary cause - then he is the primary cause for all things, not just what you want them to be.

And you praise a God, who for some reason I can't understand, chose to damn another, sending him to eternal punishment.

It's one thing to allow all people a choice - it's another to create people for the sole purpose of eternal punishment. Those with a choice choose their eternal punishment.

 

Read again: I didn't. To chose one for something is not to choose all others for something else. It is to not choose them.

The point is that he is not actively pursuing their damnation. They are doing it fine by themselves as God allows them to pursue their free will.

The reason why God damns some to eternal punishment is not secret. It is their sin. This is not arbitrary nor unjust. It is the just reward for the free choices they made.

But this is just what your God did. He created people that he knew would reject him and because he knew it, they had no chance of changing their mind.

Everyone does have a choice and apart from God's sovereign intervention, that choice will always be to reject God and the knowledge of him.

"Shall the thing made say to the one who made it, "Why did you make me this way?"

 

And thus we see why so many arminians are turning to Open Theism. It gives them a teddy bear god that has the best odds of knowing the future and the whole time is wringing his hands in frustration that more people do not "choose" him.

NO THANKS!

 

Then you operate under a different set of logic then. God COULD have chosen all men, but didn't, according to the Calvinist viewpoint. Double predestination, as Calvin stated, is the logical next step to single predestination. If God is sovereign, then he doesn't just "let" things happen, right?

Again, logically, to choose one for salvation at the exclusion of another is to choose to exclude the other.

Such a will is not free if all they are able to do is one thing - that is to sin. A will would be free if they are given the opportunity to choose Christ.

Again, it seems as though only one person made a free choice - the rest of us are left to suffer for the sin of one. If I can ONLY sin, then it fails to be a free choice. Simple logic.

This is only if such knowledge is effectual, which Arminians (rightfully show) is not Biblical.

You said it yourself. If they can only choose one thing, it is not a choice.

Exactly. We shouldn't be questioning God's ability to give us a free will - there are two sides of reading Romans 9-11 as you well know.

 

Is the idea that a majority are going to end up in hell an Arminian teaching? I see nothing in Calvinism that would require such a conclusion.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not fro grace...

 

But, Scott, do these studies tell you how many have died in the womb or in early childhood? The Calvinist can see God's provision for the salvation of these by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that is not dependent on these making a "decision". The Arminian system leaves these out from salvation because they could not make a "decision".

I don't think anyone should be placing limits on the eventual percentage of people whom God will bring to heaven. The elect are a huge, huge multitude.

(Rev 7:9 NKJV) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...