Prayer, Catholic and Baptist

Duh?

HankD

 

Dear Ps104,

I think when someone prays from the heart, our Lord hears. It's what is in the heart that matters, not the words. I prayed "just words" for many years, but behind those words was a heart that was attempting to connect with God.

Man looks on the outer appearance, but God looks upon the heart.

I was reading in Matthew last evening of the Canaanite women who cried out to Jesus for healing for her insane daughter. His disciples told Him to dismiss her. And even Jesus Himself at first told her that He was sent only to the House of Israel who had gone astray. But she came and worshipped Him crying My Lord, help me. Jesus persists in not hearing her, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." But she answers, "Yes, my Lord, even the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from the Master's tray, and they live." Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; let it be to you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Our Eternal, Almighty God hears the heart's cry and answers. I know this is true for me.

Peace in Christ, Diane

[ August 25, 2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: GH ]

 

It depends.

Praying the "Our Father" need not be cold nor vainly repetitious. To repeat the same prayer, is a form of meditation used to remove oneself from the distractions of other concerns and thoughts allowing one to focus one one's prayer and to open oneself up to listening to God. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it.

As to the other, most Baptist prayer that I have heard really couldn't be called extemporaneous. The formula follows some thing along the line of "Father, God" "we just ask" (insert gimme here)and "we just pray" (insert gimme here). The rest of the words are usually for the benefit of the other listeners. They include a lot of personal detail that the other hearers will recognize and strike me as being more like some sort of counseling session than prayer.

So, like I said, it depends. It's kind of like sin and being saved or not, Psalm. You can't read the heart of another in those things, so perhaps it's best not to claim to read the heart of another when they pray.

That probably would be "most Biblical".

Gotta love you though, guy.

 

You are correct, extemporaneous communal prayer has these elements as well it should.

See Solomon's prayer: 1 Kings 8:14-8:54

HankD

 

Question about the Lord's Prayer:

In his example prayer, Jesus places the words "Thy kingdom come." Did Jesus intend for us to continue saying these words in prayer after the establishment of the church? Remember, Jesus said "That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power" in Mark 9. So, didn't the kingdom come? Someone says "No it didn't, because I can't see it." Well, Jesus also says "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Lk 17) Paul said that God the Father "hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" (Col 1:13) and John says "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ..." (Rev 1:9) So, hasn't the kingdom come?

 

Sola --

You are correct. The kingdom came in AD 70 when the Hebrew nation was destroyed upon the return of our Lord as prophesied in Matthew 24.

However, the FULLNESS and COMPLETION of the kingdom is not here yet, thus, the prayer is still legitimate in that sense.

We know that there will be a final coming of the Lord, at which time those in the graves will come forth (John 5:29). This having not happened, we look forward yet to the fullness of the kingdom and pray for it to that end.

Brother Ed

 

Why do you place the coming of the kingdom at the destruction of Jerusalem rather than the establishment of the church?

 

I don't know about CC but many believe that because the Temple was still standing in Jerusalem, it was the symbol of the last hope for the Hebrew Nation to be converted to Christ and still the authorized witness of the Kingdom of God on earth. So, when it was destroyed, the kingdom of God on earth was officially transfered to the Church.

HankD

 

There was a period given to the Hebrew nation to repent and come to the Messiah, thus retaining the administration of the Gospel in their nation. We see this in the following parable:

Lu 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

The nation of Israel, as the keepers of the vineyard, had brought forth no fruit. This is mentioned in Matthew 21: 33-46, the parable of the wicked husbandmen. Yet the Lord, in mercy gives them one last chance to repent and turn to Him.

Sadly, they failed and they were indeed "cut down".

It is also interesting to note that there was a 40 year span between the Crucifixion and the Destruction of the Temple. 40 years is associated with testing in the Scriptures. This is one more thing which points to God giving them a final chance, a final testing, and they failed in it.

Incidentally, if you were to come to an Eastern Orthodox Liturgy, you would see and hear worship that is well over 1400 years old, being written by Sts Basil and John Chrysostom in the 6th century. The architecture of the Church follows the pattern of the Jewish Temple. We chant the Psalms and hymns, as well as the epistle and Gospel readings, and use no musical instruments. We use incense and have a valid priesthood to offer sacrifice (the TRUE sacrifice, the Lamb of God, of which the old was but a shadow) to God.

What I am saying is that in our service, Judaism continues, but in it's fulfilled form. I do believe that if you could bring back Jews from the first century and bring them to worship with us, they would feel very at home. I was told this by a Jewish woman who converted to the Church last year. She told us it was very much like temple worship, except with Jesus as the focus.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Dear Brother Ed,

I'm curious - you said about Israel:

Sadly, they failed and they were indeed "cut down".

I wonder, was God surprised at this failure?

Did He have to go to Plan B because of this failure?

Could it be possible that their failure was planned by God in order that we would see that all are bound in unbelief?

Just something to think about.

Love in Christ, Diane

 

If prayer is talking to God, then you should pray in whatever manner is comfortable. If ya wanna recite, then recite. If you wanna pray in freeform, then pray in freeform. It's between you & God. God hears all prayer, not just baptist prayer, not just catholic prayer. If others don't like the way you pray, they don't have to do it like you do.

 

Jesus did not say that repetition was forbidden, only "vain" or "meaningless" repetition (depending on the translation). Otherwise, we violate this every time we recite a bible verse. I don't know about you, but I work in a high stress environment, and several times a day find myself saying "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me". It would also mean that every time we sing a hymn or chorus, we've violating the "repetition" instruction. Somehow, I don't think your interpretation is what Jesus had in mind.

Be aware that Jesus gave us instructions how to pray (ie the Lord's prayer) after being asked "teach us how to pray". Jesus gave the Lord's prayer as a model, but the model of the Lord's Prayer was not given as a commandment, and was not given in an air of "this is the only acceptable model". If that were so, then many of the prayers found in the NT after the gospels would violate the model.

[ August 28, 2002, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

"Vain repetition" is that which has no meaning. The person who decides if it has no meaning is the person praying it, not the observer eyeing the person praying it.

 

I believe I asked for examples. Who was doing this in Jesus day when he warned about vain repetitions, and give me an example of a repetitious prayer. If you cant come up with one I'll consider the discussioc closed.</font>[/QUOTE]Psalm, how about "Praise God", said for every little thing that goes your way when in reality you aren't really considering God at all?

Like John said, "vain" has to do with the heart and intent. Something not discernable by the casual observer.

Remember, Scripture says to "judge not unjustly".

[ August 28, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]