Have the "gifts of the spirit" ceased?

:type;

Dr. Bob,

I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about the current conversations. I didn't explain myself.

I was referring to other times, when we are discussing scripture, and sometimes when we don't agree with the moderator, some come back with threats that "this will not be tolerated",
that we are led by satan, etc.etc.

That's what I meant by my statement about shouldn't that go for moderators too.

Tam,

 

This kind of stuff need to stop!! </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry atestring,
I can't help that my personality rubbed off on Gina ..... come on lighten up and laugh a little ....you know you want to.

Music4Him

BTW, the next post hopefully will be on the debate subject at hand.

 

Here is my serious question...can anyone answer it?
How many feel that this topic of gifts of the Spirit whether you belive they have or have not ceased possibly depends on the interpretation of 1Cor.13:8-10 & verse 12?

Music4Him

 

It not only depends on 1or.13:8-13, but also on the totality of Scripture that supports the same teaching, i.e,, tongues have ceased.

1. 1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Out of all the gifts mentioned in all three of these chapters (12,13,14), love is the only one that will endure forever. All other gifts will cease at some point in time. That includes faith and hope (mentioned in 13:13). They will cease at the coming of Christ, for then we will see him as he is, and will have no more need of either hope or faith. We walk by faith and not by sight. Christ is our hope. When he comes we no longer need faith or hope. Thus at his coming these two, faith and hope, will cease--but love will continue forever. It will be the only gift to continue forever. Therefore it is called the greatest of all the gifts.

In verse 8 three other gifts are mentioned, but it is evident that they are only temporary in nature. They will pass away, cease, vanish. These are not as great as love, and will not last as long as faith and hope. They are temporary. They will cease before faith and hope. This is a comparison that Paul is making.
Love will endure forever.
Faith and hope will last until the Coming of Christ.
But the Spiritual gifts ended with the Apostolic Age, and the completion of the Bible.

The Corinthians knew in part--they had part of the entire Word of God--the Old Testament.
Therefore they prophesied in part. God gave them the gift of prophecy (as well as that of tongues and revelatory knowledge) to make up for the knowledge of the New Testament that they did not have yet. For the New Testament was not yet complete. Therefore: "We know in part, and we prophesy in part."

"But when that which is perfect (the completed Word of God) is come, then that which is in part (the temporary sign gifts of tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge) shall be done away."
That is what happened. By the time the Bible was completed with the writing of the Book of Revelation these gifts had ceased. They had passed out of existence, and history seems to verify this.

However our case does not rest on this one passage alone. That is why I have been challenging you on a couple of other points (and not backing down), for which you have no answer.

2. Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew (the unbelieving nation of Israel). 1Cor.14:21,22
In the above reference Paul quotes a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11,12. The prophecy is fulfilled before their very eyes. It is that God would give the nation of Israel ("this people") a sign--men of other nations would speak to them with other tongues, and still they would not hear the Lord. Though God would speak His message to them in foreign languages, they still would not listen. That was the sign. The consequence--judgement. Jerusalem was razed to the ground--destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D., and the nation of Israel dispersed. Tongues fulfilled its purpose in this way also, and thus ceased by the end of the first century.

3. In contrast to today, Biblical tongues were actual foreign languages--not the gibberish or glossalalia that is heard today. What is heard today among Pentecostal and Charismatic circles is practiced in the occult, other world religions like Hindus, other cults like Mormons, and under every brand of "Christianity" such as Catholicism, whether they be true believers or not. How then can it be of God?

4. In contrast to Biblical times, as the Bible teaches in 1Cor.14:34,35, it was, and still is forbidden for women to speak in tongues in the church at all. Let the women keep silence in the churches. That is a straight forward command. It is forbidden for them to speak. He emphasizes the command by repeating it. He repeats it a third time in different words: If they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home. And yet, still once more--a fourth time, Paul reiterates himself--It is a shame for women to speak in church.
FOUR times in two verses he commands the women to keep quiet or to shut up! One would think that understanding of these verses would come rather easily.

5. Tongues, i.e., foreign languages, were only to be spoken in a church, with an interpreter, and with a maximum number of 3 people only.

6. The gift of tongues was not given to every person, and nowhere in Scripture is any person ever commanded to seek for the gift of tongues.

7. In 1Cor.12:28, where all the spiritual gifts are listed in order of importance, tongues is listed at the bottom of the list as least important. It was the least of all the gifts--the one that mattered least.

8. When you read through the 12th chapter of 1Corinthians you see how insignificant tongues really is. Paul gives the illustration of the human body to illustrate the church--the local church at Corinth. That is who he was addressing. Each member in that church had a particular function, a duty, and some had certain special gifts. Now think how many different parts your body has. One of my college courses was human anatomy and physiology, so it may be easier for me to think of this than you. Believe me, we have a lot of "parts" to our bodies. Paul refers to those parst as members. We are many members that make up one body. But not every member can be the hand, or the head, or the eye. In other words Paul was saying not everyone has the same gift. We all have different gifts and abilities. Here is how he ends the chapter:

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The obvious answer to the above questions is NO. It was not God's will for all to speak in tongues, or for all to have all of the gifts. Only a few of the individuals were blessed with the gift of tongues--perhaps just a very few. Others were jealous and envious of those few. That's where the problems relative to the gift of tongues started, and that is why Paul spent so much time correcting the abuse of tongues.
The abuse of the gift goes on today.
The actual gift of tongues ceased almost 2,000 years ago.
DHK

 

DHK, I disagree with just about every single letter in every word of that post.
I will address each of your points tonight when the kids get to bed.
I might even go to church and post from there simply so I can be speaking within a church building at the time.
Gina

 

DHK that is your opinion and I respect that and thank you for agreeing with me about the scripture 1Cor.13:8-10,12 being the pivital point of this debate.

We stand at a stale mate folks on this subject and people will have to choose what to belive.

On the other end of the spectrum of the interpretation....
God gives us spiritual gifts for the life here on earth in order to build up, serve, and strengthen fellow Christians.The spiritual gifts are for the church. In eternity we will be made perfect and complete and will be in the very presence of God seeing Him face to face.We will no longer need the spiritual gifts, so they will come to an end.
In verse 12 Paul offered a glimpse into the future to give us hope that one day we will be complete when we see God face to face. This truth should strenthen our faith--we don't have all the answers now, but then we will.....someday, some sweet sweet day.~

BTW, most of the above that I had written is from the Theological Reveiwers of the "life application study bible" from Tyndale publishing. They had such a wonderful way of putting it in writting (with more PHD's then I could shake a stick at) and was mostly what I was saying in another post without their help. But if anyone really wants to look up what I said in the other post, it could possibley be in the "what has ceased" thread?

Music4Him

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Just a note~
I have seen others (unknown to them) working in the gifts of the Spirit. The Babtist preacher that grew up with my parents is one of those unsuspecting ones. He will be peaching and then suddenly say, "I feel that the Lord wants me to say this".... And the next thing that comes out of his mouth will tie the sermon all together.... Hello~ thats the gift of knowledge or wisdom or possibly both. (Yes surprise...I still go and visit the little Baptist church from time to time. ) How do you think I rubbed off on Gina?

 

This kind of stuff need to stop!! </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry atestring,
I can't help that my personality rubbed off on Gina ..... come on lighten up and laugh a little ....you know you want to.

Music4Him

BTW, the next post hopefully will be on the debate subject at hand. </font>[/QUOTE]Gina I am not laughing!

 

My apology to you then atestring~ Can we forgive and forget and get back to the topic at hand?

Music4Him

 

Were you supposed to be?
If there's a problem let me know what it is please.
Although I believe in the gift of tongues and that it still exists I didn't really write to her in tongues if that is what you're upset about.
Gina

 

Gina is telling the truth atestring~
The board was getting really intense and it did lighten the tension up somewhat. All thanks to Gina.

Music4Him

 

For all those concerned: Read the research..showing that speaking in tongues, as the Spirit of God gives the utterance, has not ceased!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-Ch11.htm

First and Second Centuries; Third Century; Fourth and Fifth Centuries; The Medieval Age; The Reformation Era Forward; Twentieth Century; Statistics on Pentecostals Today; Conclusion

MEE

 

Dr. Bob,
Your input is basically what I grew up with in the 1960s.
It was developed in the late 1800s, and gained much support during the 1900s.

The gifts did not DISAPPEAR. They did diminish. And there are reasons for that. Maybe for another thread. But not likely.

It is a teaching that has gained much acceptance by those who are called cessationists.

What cessationists have yet to provide is a source for this teaching you present. This interpretational teaching is put on a level with scripture.

That means this:
The scripture says that tongues will cease. We all agree with that. The scripture does not give a definitive time, but a general guideline.

Cessationists have chosen to give a definitive time on when tongues, and the gifts ceased. Basically at the end of the first century, when the Bible was coming together as a cohesive book.

So the interpretation is basically an add on to scripture, because it gives more insight and timing. It is basically prophetic and apostolic teaching. But nobody knows the prophet or apostle who gave this additional teaching. The Apostle Paul does not say all the words that you say. He does not even imply them.

I have yet to have any cessationist even dialog on this, because the issue of source is one that many cannot deal with. Most say that they believe the Bible, but what we really do is believe in our interpretation of the Bible.

So what is the result? Cessationists don't experience the gifts because they don't believe they are possible for today.
Others who do believe that the gifts are for today experience the gifts, and it looks like just what the New Testament describes.

And for those who do think the gifts are for today, and experience them, we have the immature, and the mature. Basically, the cessationists tend to dwell on the acts of the immature. Not surprising. But in a few years, there will be enough mature people who do believe the gifts are for today, and they will be living examples that the Holy Spirit does today what He did in the first century.

 

All is forgiven by me.

 

3. IF tongues continued and was so important, where was it? Couple of references to foreign language (NOT gibberish) in Acts.....


Dr Bob I would think that tongues is a language and "not gibberish".
1Cor.14:27-33 ~ If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Acts 2:4-39
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, [the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, ***Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.**** 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

Qwerty,
That is the best post I have heard on this subject.

 

Dr. Bob,

I read your post, but it does not seem logical to me.

You said:. Since no new revelation/knowledge came within that generation (with the death of John the canon of the NT closed), the grammatical parallel to tongues also ceasing is obvious.

The way I see it, by that logic, everything that is written in the bible should have stopped, including salvation.(JMOHO)

And of course we know that it didn't.

Tam

 

If you ask most Pastors or Evangelist if they were called of God , or did they just choose ministry as a profession they would be quick to say that they are called of God and would condemn anyone that just choose ministry as a profession.
How can they be called of God if the canon of Scripture means that God speaking ( or special revelation) has ceased.
If God has said all he is going to say then being a minister could only be a chosen profession.

 

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

When Peter said this in the above passage, it sounds like the last days started on that day. But then in Revelation it seems like we are still living in the last days also. Although not all of the above passage that talks about the last days has come to pass.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

 

~atestring~ Thats a good observation.

Music4Him