Do We Have Everything?

neal4christ · Mar 28, 2004

Just a thought that I began pondering as I was reading Scripture this morning. In Matthew 28.19-20 Jesus says:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. Matt. 28.19-20, RSV

However, in John 20.30 and 21.25 John tells us:

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book. John 20.30, RSV

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21.25, RSV

Now I know that in Matthew Jesus is talking about his teachings and in John it is talking about signs and things that Christ did, but I can't help but wonder, do we have "all" that Jesus taught written down in the Bible? I am not saying it is defective or it does not work, but by Jesus' command the disciples were told to teach others to observe all that Jesus had commanded them. If many of his signs were left out, why is it not possible many of his teachings were left out? Do we have all that he commanded? Why do you believe so or not?

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. This is not to undermine one's faith or discredit the Bible in any way. It is just somehting that made me go, "hmmmm...."

Jude · Mar 28, 2004

I guess if one believes in the inspiration of the Holy Bible, one then also knows that all that we NEED to know is there.

neal4christ · Mar 28, 2004

I agree that we have all we need to know. But then isn't there the chance that something has been lost and the Great Commission is impossible for us to fulfill today as Jesus commanded it (going on the assumption it is a command for us too, as has been taught to me my whole life)?

In Christ,
Neal

Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

Neal4christ,
If you are implying that after 2000 years the church is accurate in its "hand-me-down" oral traditions, you are fooling yourself. In 2000 years many someone(s) would have written down every one of the oral traditions handed down by the Apostles. That is the nature of the beast. We have nothing that remains a strictly oral hand-me-down tradition. Even the masonic organization with its "secrets" has them written down, albeit in cypher, it is still written down.

There are however many things in the Roman church especially that are "add-ons" that were not present with the Apostles, which the Apostles would have very strongly opposed, such as the worship of Mary, the Rosary, etc.

No, the bible does not contain all of Jesus' words, after all His ministry was 3 and 1/2 years approx., and the words that we have do not depict anywhere near all that he said. But what we do have is sufficient unto our belief in Him. If we do not come to belief with what we do have, many volumn of emmense magnitude would not convince us.

We argue endlessly over the few words we do have, can you imagine the wars we would be having if we had his every word? I'm convinced that less is better.

JFS · Mar 28, 2004

Yelsew2 wrote:

There are however many things in the Roman church especially that are "add-ons" that were not present with the Apostles, which the Apostles would have very strongly opposed, such as the worship of Mary, the Rosary, etc.
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I stewed on this for a half hour. This just makes me very angry. I will tell you now that you are a big fat lier. It has been told to you a thousand times that it is against the teachings of the Catholic Church to worship Mary, yet you persist in telling otherwise. Because you have difficulty understanding the teachings of the Church regarding Mary does not give you the right to form your opinion and proclaim it as Cahtolic Teaching. I am sorry you have difficulty understanding what many Catholics on this board have tried to tell of he teachings about Mary. It would be honest of you to admitt that you do not understand and that you should give us Cathoilcs the benifit of the doubt when we say it is agianst the teachings of the Catholic Church to worship Mary. If anyone does worship Mary it is a grave sin. A mortal sin.

"All honor and Glory is Yours
Almighty Father. Forever and Ever. Amen"

This is the focus of the Christain Catholic Life. There is no room to worship anyone but God. Stew on that for awhile instead of your hatred for the "Christain Catholic Faith".

God Bless You

John

Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

Stew all you want,

worship, n., v., -shiped, -shiping or (esp. Brit.) -shipped, -shipping.
–n.
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. N/A
–v.t.
6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–v.i.
8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
--Syn. 3. honor, homage, adoration, idolatry. 7. honor, venerate, revere, adore, glorify, idolize, adulate.
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Now if that is not what the Catholic church does with regards to Mary then I will apologize to you.

Included in Worship:
Erection of statuary "honoring" the one depicted in the statue.
Invoking the name of one, with words of praise and honor.
Invoking the name of one in Prayer as if that one had the power to grant one's petition. Such as "Hail Mary, mother of God hear our prayers"

If the general populous of the Catholic church does not do those things in regard to Mary, then I humbly apologize. But you have a great deal of explaining to do regarding the Rosary, the statuary in and around the Catholic church buildings, and the shrines to "the Blessed virgin" that I've seen in the homes of my staunch catholic, personal friends, who've explained to me that they do in truth offer prayers up to Mary, etc.

JFS · Mar 28, 2004

This is a page from Gary Hodges web site

http://catholicoutlook.com/index.html

He does a far better Job than I do to counter your objections.

Answers to Objections Regarding
Mary and the Saints:

It is blasphemous to worship Mary. To worship anyone other than God is pure idolatry!

by Gary Hoge

I could not agree more. That’s why Catholics do not worship Mary. Period. To do so would indeed be idolatrous, and no one would be more grieved by such wickedness than Mary herself, whose job is always to point people toward her Son. For the record, the Catholic Church condemns the worship of anything other than God. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc.”1 Mary is a creature, like us, and she should be honored for her great faith, but she must never be worshipped. Referring to Mary specifically, the Church says, “no creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer.”2

I know of only one instance in the 2,000-year history of the Church where some people actually worshipped Mary. This happened in the fourth century, when a group of Arab converts called “Collyridians” began to offer small cakes (called “collyrides”) in sacrifice to Mary as a goddess. The Church immediately put a stop to that. St. Epiphanius told them, “Let Mary be held in honor. Let the Father, Son and Holy Ghost be adored, but let no one adore Mary.” That always has been, and always will be, the Catholic attitude toward “Mary worship.” It is blasphemy, and idolotry, and it is simply not tolerated.

Those who claim that Catholics do in fact worship Mary often refer to a book by St. Alphonsus Ligouri called The Glories of Mary.3 This book is a rich source of quotes that seem to confirm all of the horror stories that people have heard about the Catholic attitude toward Mary. For example, on page 130, Ligouri writes, “The Holy Church commands a worship peculiar to Mary.”

That looks bad, doesn’t it? How can modern Catholics claim that they don’t worship Mary when one of their own saints said that they do? Simple: In the eighteenth century, when Ligouri wrote that book, the word “worship” had a much broader meaning than it does now. In those days, the word meant “to ascribe worthiness, honor, repute, or respect,” whether such honor was given to God or to man. There’s certainly nothing wrong with ascribing worthiness, honor, repute, or respect to Mary, or to any other worthy human.

Examples of this broad usage of the word “worship” can be seen in older translations of the Bible. For example, when an angel, the captain of the host of the Lord, appeared to Joshua, we read, “And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?” (Josh. 5:14, KJV). In the parable of the unmerciful servant, Jesus says, “The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matt. 18:26, KJV). Obviously, Joshua did not worship the angel in the modern sense of the word, nor did the servant in Jesus’s parable.

In recent years the word “worship” has come to refer exclusively to the adoration that is properly given to God alone, and as I mentioned above, Catholics do not give such adoration to Mary or anyone else. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the devotion given to Mary “differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration.”4

Frankly, I cringe whenever I read quotations from Ligouri, and other writers of his era. He makes it sound as if Mary is not only equal to Christ, but above Him! Ligouri did not hold such a view of course, but he wrote at a time when it was customary to write in a very flowery, exaggerated way. We’re much more literal-minded today, and so when we read his eighteenth-century, hyperbole-laden book through twenty-first-century eyes, we can easily misunderstand his meaning. Anti-Catholic writers count on this fact when they quote Ligouri. They know that their audience will probably not be aware of the hyperbolic writing style that was popular in the eighteenth century, and so they try to pass off Ligouri’s comments as if they were literal statements of Catholic dogma. Of course, some anti-Catholic writers may themselves be unaware of how people wrote in the eighteenth century, and they may actually believe that Ligouri’s comments are meant to be understood literally. If so, their confusion is honest, and understandable.

It is very easy for Protestants to misunderstand the Church’s teachings about Mary, and so Catholics are admonished by the Church that “every care should be taken to avoid any exaggeration which could mislead other Christian brethren about the true doctrine of the Catholic Church.”5 Perhaps one day Catholics and Protestants will again be able to stand side-by-side, and say, in the words of Martin Luther, “[Mary is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough.”6

End Notes

1 Catechism of the Catholic Church, (Rome: Urbi et Orbi, 1994), 2113.

2 Catechism of the Catholic Church, (Rome: Urbi et Orbi, 1994), 970.

3 Brooklyn: Redemptorist Fathers, 1931.

4 Catechism of the Catholic Church, (Rome: Urbi et Orbi, 1994), 971.

5 Pope Paul VI, Marialis Cultus, 32.

6 Martin Luther, Sermon, Christmas, 1531.
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Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

That's wonderful, but that still does not explain "the things of practice"; that which is actually practiced among and within the Roman Catholic adherents!

JFS · Mar 28, 2004

Included in Worship:
Erection of statuary "honoring" the one depicted in the statue.
Invoking the name of one, with words of praise and honor.
Invoking the name of one in Prayer as if that one had the power to grant one's petition. Such as "Hail Mary, mother of God hear our prayers"
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As Far as I am concerned none of these has anything to do with worship, and by worship I mean actions or prayers that are ment for God alone.

Erection of statuary "honoring" the one depicted in the statue.
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By your standards all statues, pictures or representaions of dead people should be eliminated. You should burn all your money because that has images on them that honor dead people. All the monuments in the US should be destroyed for the same reason becuase they honor or Glorify people or events in the past.

Invoking the name of one, with words of praise and honor.
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If you knew anything about the Catholic faith you would realize that when we mention the names and actions of the saints in heaven we are giving honor to God for the works that he performed through his humble servants. They are reminders to us of how God uses his servants for his own wishes. We are fully aware that the saints themselves did nothing except through the Grace of God.

Invoking the name of one in Prayer as if that one had the power to grant one's petition. Such as "Hail Mary, mother of God hear our prayers
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This is a whole other arguemnet because you will counter that we shouldn't invoke the dead. I will say this, no self respecting Catholic believes that the saints in heaven have power in and of themselves. We ask them to ask God for graces on our behalf. Again it all points to God.

If the general populous of the Catholic church does not do those things in regard to Mary, then I humbly apologize. But you have a great deal of explaining to do regarding the Rosary, the statuary in and around the Catholic church buildings, and the shrines to "the Blessed virgin" that I've seen in the homes of my staunch catholic, personal friends, who've explained to me that they do in truth offer prayers up to Mary
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I am sorry that you cannot see the family nature in the Catholic faith. By your standards once a relative dies all traces of the memory of that person should be eliminated. I as a Catholic believe that once we are members of the body of Christ we are always memebers of his body barring any mortal sins. As a memeber of his body we are all united to one another like a family. So pardon me if we have statues and images of our family members. The Rosary has been discused on the board enough. You can review the past posts. If they do not satisfy you nothing will with regards to the Rosary. As for what your freinds have to say about Mary I cannot comment because I do not know what they said.

God Bless You

JOhn

Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

What Bogus reasoning! If as you say it is a commemorative of a "family member". Why is it limited to only a relatively few members of the family? Why not all members of "the family", are we all not just as equal in God's eyes? Did Jesus not come to save us all? Are all who believe in Jesus not children of God. Or is it just the "hall of famer's" that deserve shrines?

Purely bogus line of thought!

neal4christ · Mar 28, 2004

If you are implying that after 2000 years the church is accurate in its "hand-me-down" oral traditions, you are fooling yourself.
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Whoaaaaa there! I am not trying to imply anything. I simply ask a question. I like to understand things in my mind and I just started pondering this this morning. I am not endorsing anyone's oral traditions or such. By the way, I am not a Catholic.....so I ask Catholics and Protestants the same thing just because I was wondering.

Okay....this thread is not intended to be about the Rosary, Mary, etc. It is about whether we have everything Jesus taught. I gather from your post, Yelsew, that you would say no, we don't have it all written down. How then does that go with the Great Commission? How can we fulfill it? Or does it not directly apply to us? These are things that get my wheels turning, not to promote a set of beliefs.

In Christ,
Neal

Ps104_33 · Mar 28, 2004

One important part of the verse was left out for some reason.

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: John 21:30

But observe verse 31:

BUT

THESE ARE WRITTEN

that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Implying that, sure, there were many other things that Jesus did but only what God had put in Scripture is all that he deemed important for us to know for salvation. Therefore the so-called oral passed down traditions may be nice but worthless when it comes to eternal life.

neal4christ · Mar 28, 2004

No reason it was left out. Reread the Great Commission. Is all = just what is necessary? Is that how you understand it? I agree we have what we need, and I am not even equating signs/works with teachings. Do you equate the two? That is the heart of what I ask. Is it even valid to equate the two and assume we don't have all that Christ taught?

Again, if you assume we don't have all Christ taught, how does this fit in with the Great Commission? Does it at all?

In Christ,
Neal

neal4christ · Mar 28, 2004

Since there is some confusion, let me restate that I agree that we have what we need in relation to salvation in Scripture. However, the Great Commission does not say teach only what they need for salvation, but teach them to observe all that I commanded you. My simple question is do we have all that Christ taught and how it affects the Great Commission. Come on, now, this is not to promote a certain belief system, but to get the ole brain juices flowing. Ya'll are too eager to pounce on the RCC when you see something remotely resembling what they teach!

In Christ,
Neal

Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

Not Pouncing,...Questioning!

Neal4Christ, What will satisfy your inquiry? Opinion or evidence?

BobRyan · Mar 28, 2004

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Just a thought that I began pondering as I was reading Scripture this morning. In Matthew 28.19-20 Jesus says:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age. Matt. 28.19-20, RSV

However, in John 20.30 and 21.25 John tells us:

Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book. John 20.30, RSV

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. John 21.25, RSV

I can't help but wonder, do we have "all" that Jesus taught written down in the Bible? I am not saying it is defective or it does not work, but by Jesus' command the disciples were told to teach others to observe all that Jesus had commanded them. If many of his signs were left out, why is it not possible many of his teachings were left out? Do we have all that he commanded? Why do you believe so or not?

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#1 We do not have 3.5 years worth of the sayings of Christ or of the signs and miracles of Christ recorded in the Gospels. That is clear.

#2. The Gospel accounts are written in direct response to Christ statement "Teach them ALL that I have commanded you". Christ's teaching was primarily PRE-Cross and the Gospels therefore devote the bulk of their material to His pre-cross teachings in direct fulfillment of the command to "Teach them ALL that I have commanded you".

But even that "is not an exhaustive account".

Yet the Gospel is there. It was "preached before hand to Abraham" Gal 3:7 it was preached "to us as it was to them as well" Heb 4:1 and it continues to be preached today.

That does not mean however that you are free to "make stuff up". Hopefully we both agree there.

In Christ,

Bob

JFS · Mar 28, 2004

What Bogus reasoning! If as you say it is a commemorative of a "family member". Why is it limited to only a relatively few members of the family? Why not all members of "the family", are we all not just as equal in God's eyes? Did Jesus not come to save us all? Are all who believe in Jesus not children of God. Or is it just the "hall of famer's" that deserve shrines?

Purely bogus line of thought!
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This just goes to show you that you lack a consideral amount of knowledge regarding the Catholic Faith. Have you ever condisered how many saints that are known to the Catholic faith? Do you know even how the Catholic faith goes about declaring someone a saint? Do you have a clue about the feast days of the saints? Are you not aware that we have a feast day for all the saints in heaven? The ones that are known and not know. It is November 1st. So there goes your bogus reasoning arguement. So why don't you admit that your knowledge of the Catholic Faith is so limited that you cannot make informed conclusions of the teachings of the Catholic Faith.
We do not worship anyone but God. I can understand that people who are ill informed of the Catholic faith can come to the conlusion that we worship Mary and the Saints but it just ain't so. We are not lieing to you and we are not trying to decieve you when we say we do not worship anyone but God.

God Bless You

John

Yelsew2 · Mar 28, 2004

Then why not drop the trappings of worship in regard to the rosary? Why not change the prayers associated with each of the beads so that there is no "hail Mary, Mother of God, Save us" etc. I have no problem using reminders, I do that my self with 3x5 cards! But I have no prayers to Mary, and no prayers to any other saint! My prayers are all to my Heavenly Father, and All in the wonderful name of Jesus my savior!

If as you say you do not worship any of the saints or Mary, why not remove the staturary, and warn your parishioners about having shrines in their homes to "the blessed Virgin"

If as you say, you do not worship any but God, then get rid of the "graven images". They are not needed!

neal4christ · Mar 29, 2004

Yeslew,

Opinion will be fine. I don't think anyone will have a definitive answer.

Bob,

I agree with you. But how does that plug in with the Great Commission? We can't completely fulfill it now since we don't have all Christ taught written down in Scripture. Correct? So are we kind of half keeping Christ's final command? I ask you just as much as I ask myself. I don't have an answer yet.

In Christ,
Neal

JFS · Mar 29, 2004

Then why not drop the trappings of worship in regard to the rosary? Why not change the prayers associated with each of the beads so that there is no "hail Mary, Mother of God, Save us" etc. I have no problem using reminders, I do that my self with 3x5 cards! But I have no prayers to Mary, and no prayers to any other saint! My prayers are all to my Heavenly Father, and All in the wonderful name of Jesus my savior!

If as you say you do not worship any of the saints or Mary, why not remove the statuary, and warn your parishioners about having shrines in their homes to "the blessed Virgin"
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Let’s do that. Let’s remove all the shrines and statues and pictures of dead people. Start burning your money because they have pictures on them honoring dead presidents. Let us get rid of the Vietnam memorial because it is set up to honor the dead from that war. Let us get rid of that big old statue of Lincoln in Washington because that must be a graven image. Sound ridicules doesn’t it? There is nothing wrong with shrines as long as they have there proper place.

If as you say, you do not worship any but God, then get rid of the "graven images". They are not needed!
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You are absolutely right. Statues are not needed. Pictures of loved ones are not needed. But there is nothing wrong with them if they are kept in their proper perspective. They do no harm and potentially they do a great deal of good helping people to get closer to God.

Why don’t you just admit that you do not have a good enough understanding of the Catholic Faith to make informed conclusions of their teachings? What you get on this board with regards to explanations of the teachings of the Catholic Church is limited in scope and depth. I have been at it for 20 years and I have only scratched the surface. It is fine to disagree based on your own understanding. It is fine to say “this looks like Idolatry to me so for the time being I will reject this teaching” But when people come along and say “your knowledge on the subject is limited” you should humble yourself and learn more about the subject.

God Bless You

John

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