Any full preterists?

Ray Berrian

In Revelation 13:18 does say that it is a man, "for it is man's number." On that I concur. What you seem to fail to understand is this man(beast) with this number 666, is NOT the same as 'antichrist' as I explained earlier. Antichrist was(is) a collective term for a group of people for a particular event. Your tying Revelation 13:18 to John's 'antichrist' in his epistles is pure speculation on your part. The same goes for the 'lawless one' in 2Thesalonians 2:3f. It is the Pre-mil incorrectness that wants to tie all of these into being an interpretation of one and the same persons. They are not! If you would just read how John describes 'antichrist' and trust his word, then maybe the scales will drop from your eyes and you will see. Revelation 13:18 and 2Thes.2:3 are definitely closer to being one and the same persons. As John said, there were "many" antichrists already in the world. And, by his very definition, there are many in the world today. For what is the definition of 'antichrist' except what John has said? "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist-- he denies the Father and the Son"(1Jo.2:22).

Now how hard is that to understand? John made it pretty black and white. So why do you continue to want to see it with rose colored glasses? Please then, explain to me where you believe that John got it wrong!

 

John starts out with the (apparently) commin assumption that the "antichrist" was a person; "as ye have heard". Then he expands it to any false leader who denies Christ.
What that says is that both meanings are true. There are many antichrists now (then), and thius will culminate in the final endtime leader; "the wicked one". They must be the same, as we see that there was already widespread expectation of a final wicked ruler, and a lot of this would have stemmed from Daniel's prophecies. OF course, if they are different, then many dispensationalists allow for one to be the first beast, and the other to be the second beast or "false prophet".

As for 666, there are many legitimate things that add up to it. It is the number of Rome, with the Greek for "The Latin Kingdom", the Greek and Hebrew names for the founder of Rome, Hebrew for Caesar Nero, the full set of Roman numerals (before M was added), the Italian phrase Viva Il Duce, for Mussolini, who is believed to be one of the horns, and Chaldean for Saturn, the god of the mystery religions, including the Roman pantheon. The number appears on pagan amulets and in other such places.
The term translated "666" was actually a trio of letters, whose numerical value added up to it: chi (600) Xi (threescore), stigma (defunct former 6th letter.)

Stigma actually represented a cross, and the other two letters are also variations of a cross. Three crosses are a symbol of Romanized Christianity.

It is also a "human number". So the most significant term of all that adds up to this number is the Greek he pren— "the [natural] mind". It's this natural or "carnal" mind, devoid of God's Spirit, that is hostile to God (Rom.8:7). It gets us into such trouble with God because "it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be! So then those who are in the flesh, CANNOT please God" (v.7,8) THIS will be the snare of any unregenerate people who manage to escape the actual mark of the Beast. Their rejection of the atoning work of Christ in their lives makes them in God's sight all apart of man's world system of sin led by the archrebel, Satan.

Another noteworthy point is that King Solomon's income was 666 talents of gold, and it left him in a state of unrest. (1 Kings 10:14, Ecclesiastes 2:8-11, 17)
Revelation page

 

Eric B.

Where is it inferred "any false leader who denies Christ"? This is totally false from the accounts in John's epistles that I have seen! Do you possess a special kind of bible different than the ones that I have? If not, then this is the type of false hermenuetics that I have reiterated over and over again. I am sure that John did not incorporate this in his account. This is purely man made fiction. I will go to my grave battling anyone who continues such adding to the scriptures. God said it is incorrect to add to scripture(Prov.30:5,6), so why do so many continue to do this?

I am sorry Eric B., but you need to supply evidence for that statement. And it needs to come from his epistles where he actually mentions antichrist.

 

There are three references to antichrist in I John and only one occurrence in II John.

I John 2:18 and in the third phrase antichrist is spoken of as though it is one person. The fourth phrase rightly suggests that there were many antichrists in the world even in this apostle's life-time.

I John 2:22 . . . 'Anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is said to be an antichrist; this includes all unsaved persons. To deny the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is to have the spirit of antichrist in a persons heart and life.

The third reference is found in I John 4:3. All unsaved persons have the spirit of antichrist in their lives. John suggests that the spirit of antichrist was spoken about earlier and through other apostles, though not using the exact term. In John's lifetime the spirit of antichrist was already in the then known world of human beings.

The fourth reference to antichrist is in II John verse seven. Anyone who teaches that Jesus is not Divine is a 'deceiver and an antichrist.' John says even in his day there were many 'deceivers who had entered into the world system.'

In these four passages 'antichrist' is made up of human beings who deny that Christ is the Son of the living God. We have them in our world today by the billions.

The word, 'antichrists' is found in I John 2:18, suggesting that these persons are many.

II Thessalonians 2:3 'the man of sin' and the 'son of perdition' is pointing to the antichrist who will during the Great Tribulation will sit on the throne in the Temple claiming that he is God. [vs. 4] The Apostle Paul knew there would be an unprecedented man called the Antichrist, as well as the Apostle John. [Revelation 13:18] The 'beast' is a man and his number will be 666. Christians will probably not know who this God deceiver will be, because the church will be taken to Heaven before [I Thess. 4:17] he will be revealed with all of his hatred and malice toward our Lord Jesus and all human beings.

The antichrist will not deny Jesus Christ but will claim that he is the real and true Christ. [Matthew 24:5] Jesus said, that during the time of the Great Tribulation [vs. 21] and even during all of time, many men will claim that they are Jesus come in the flesh. [vs. 5]

There will be the antichrist who will be a world dominating and wicked person in the future, who will take people's lives by beheading them. [Rev. 20:4]

 

Antichrist is only ASSUMED in 2Thes.2:3 by those who desire to incorporate it into their theology. John NEVER describes antichrist as someone who desired to be worshipped! Only as "many" who desire NOT to worship Jesus Christ and the Father by their refusal to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ who came from the Father. Also, their is NEVER drawn any similarities of the Lawless one by Paul with John's antichrist. This is purely man-made fiction. The only thing that may hold any similarities are the "rebellion" and and the "spirit of the antichrist." With both of these you have associated with it either an upheaval and a falling away and denial of Christ, since they were both in progress at that time or were soon, leads me to believe they could be one and the same events(or at least happen at the same time). But the Pre-mil doctrine must force these two events to be one and the same or both equal the anti-christ. If not, then this view would have substantial failure. If, in the Pre-mil view, you can not connect the dots-- another one is inserted so it can be connected.

 

In nearly all of the Scripture about antichrist it speaks to the issue of those who deny that Christ is Divine.

The unique thing about the antichrist of the future will be not that he denies the Deity of Christ, but rather the False Prophet will declare and preach that this man {antichrist} is indeed the true Christ--the and Messiah to the Jews. As the Jews were self-deceived at His first coming, they will be deceived during the Great Tribulation, at least for the first 3 ½ years. At the mid-Tribulation period they will see the killing that the antichrist will begin to be involved with and they will then understand that this antichrist is the false Messiah.

This 'son of Hell' will not deny the Divinity of Christ but will sit in Jerusalem on the Great Tribulation throne in the Temple, ' . . . showing himself that he is God' Himself.' [II Thessalonians 2:4]

The antichrist will demand worship as duly noted, with clarity in Revelation 13:15c. ' . . . and will cause as many who will not worship the image of the beast [antichrist] should be killed.' This world leader, the antichrist, modus operandi of bringing about the death of those who refuse to worship him will be martyrdom by being beheaded, as the Apostle John foretells in Revelation 20:4. Those who refuse the 'mark of the beast' designated as in the number 666 on the right hand or forehead, signifying the worship of this antichrist will have their lives taken from them. [Rev. 13:15-18] These will seal their testimony for their true love of Christ and of their salvation through Jesus, by way of physical death. The Apostle John in his vision saw these martyred saints coming into Heaven and there is a dialogue between an Elder in Heaven and himself. 'And he said to me, these are they who came out of the Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' [Revelation 7:14]

The people, Jews and Gentiles will be fooled by the demonic miracles done before the world. [Rev. 13:13-14] To my way of thinking, God will allow the Devil to allow the antichrist to ' . . . make fire to come down from the sky on the earth in the sight of people.'

Thank God we are in Christ and will not experience this most awful experience in the future.

 

Uh, aren't you here implying that "antichrist" is ONLY the plural sense (if I'm understanding you correctly), of, in your own words "Antichrist was(is) a collective term for a group of people for a particular event"; "many" who desire NOT to worship Jesus Christ and the Father by their refusal to acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ". That was all I was saying. I was allowing for your interpretation, in addition to it referring to a single end-time leader, for John uses the word as both. To repeat, he begins with the singular meaning, which people were expecting, and then extends it into your plural meaning. Both are true. There are many "antichrists" now, and there shall be a final "Antichrist" in the future.

 

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, a fourth beast , terrible and powerful, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth; it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with its feet: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Do you consider this fourth beast in Daniel to be the same one in Revelation?

 

Daniel 7:23 sounds much like the "New World Order." Verse 25 appears to be the antichrist who will subdue all nations and will bring great havoc in Jerusalem as also noted in Revelation 20:9.

 

The beast of Rev. 13 represents the expansion of the fourth beast (Rome) to embody all of the strongest characteristics of the other three: — the lion's mouth, the bear's feet, and the leopard's swift body. Most illustrations erroneously show a 7 headed leopard with 7 lion's mouths and the 10 horns randomly distributed among the heads, but if you put the original four beasts together, it will make up this beast. 1 lion's head + 1 bear's head + 4 leopard's heads (representing the four divisions of Alexander the Great) + the fourth beast's head make the 7 heads.

This beast covers the whole history of the system from Babylon to Christ's return, and the "healed" stage of this beast is magnified in chapter 17, with the 7 remaining horns (after 3 were plucked out according to Daniel) becoming the new "heads"; the little horn becoming the harlot rider, the 7th head being the final "antichrist", the new ten horns being the 10 toes of the image from Dan.2. which are the ten kings that shall reign with the antichrist.

http://members.aol.com/etb700/revelation.html

 

Daniel 7:23, a "new world order"? Ridiculous! How about 'old world order'-- the old Roman Empire. This was a session of kingdoms which started with Nebuchadnezzer's Babylonian kingdom, just as the statue symbolized the four major kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. There is no two thousand year gap in between any of the empires as it would be for it to represent some future "new world order". Way too much Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsey here! If some of these bogus authors(who have already made wrong predictions) would tell you that the 'new heaven' and 'new earth' is actually Mars, and then write a book asserting this fact, how many of you would practically bust the doors down to get a copy? Let the Bible interpret the meanings, not men who predicted the second coming in 1988, only to be wrong as usual. Daniel chronologically displays and lays out what was to happen. And it is explained when it was to happen, and then it became historically accurate what later transpired. But "new world order!" Give me a break! Take a history class instead.

 

Bingo. It clearly represents the Roman Empire. Here is the problem that I also had, before coming to the Preterist view, " Presupposition ". We read into the text what we've been taught, even though it's not in scripture.

Even Dispy John MacArthur, whom I have tremendous respect for, recognizes that the 4th Beast is Rome. Yet in his study bible he says the horn is anti-christ. He puts the beast in Jesus's day yet its ruler thousands of years in the future, why? Because they must.

 

Grasshopper

It seems that no matter how many times WE bring up what the SCRIPTURE says, these Pre-Mil's and Historicists continue to quote from popular books and commentary. What does it take to get these people to let scripture interpret scripture, rather than going into the word and trying to re-define what the scripture says? The only support for their views are man's promises(most failed), whereas we have conformity to scripture AND historical fulfillment!

 

Don't be too hard on them. Tradition is a hard thing to overcome. Only when one is ready to truely consider other interpretations will they begin to see what I believe is the truth. My hope in debating these things is perhaps someone else who reads the thread and truely is open-minded about preterism will search it out, study it, and find as I did it really does make sense and lines right up with scripture. We must accept however that there will be some who will never depart from thier tradition and creeds.

 

Whoa, there. You guys are getting a bit carried away there. How do you know there is no 2000 year gap? That is a presupposition. In that scenario, the coming future kingdom of antichrist is but a resurrection of the old Roman Empire in pretty much the bounds of the old, though it may not be called that. That way, the Roman Empire can be both the ancient and the future one, and represented in the same prophecies.
No I for one do not just follow what others taught, and have questioned all traditions. (Like I do not belive the pre-trib position, which enjoys almost "orthodox" status) While some may see the little horn as antichrist, I see it as a certain religious office that extends from ancient times until now.
But it is scripture that drives many of our views. You talk about historical and scriptural fulfillment, but the one thing none of you have yet answered is how this life; this present evil world can be the "New Heaven and new earth"; The "blessed hope", when Paul says that if this world is all we have to look forward to, then we are the most pitiable of all men. If there is no resurrection, then our faith is vain, and the righteous perish. Your allegorical interpretations stretch scripture too far to call it "letting scripture interpret scripture". The historical evidence shows that we are still in a fallen world, and while there may be some spiritual blessings in Christ, there must be more than this that God has for us.

 

Also forgot, "New World Order" is way overblown. From the prophecies what we see is to some extent the same old world order, but the Antichrist kingdom will have arisen, and will fight against the powers to the north and east.

 

It seems to me, the burden of proof is on the side thats inserts long gaps. Where is the scriptual proof that it must contain a gap?

Very good. Our churches are full of people who don't.

What is meant by the New Heavens and New Earth? You might be suprised what it meant to scholars before the 20th century influence.

John Lightfoot (1859)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)
"With the same reference it is, that the times and state of things immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem are called 'a new creation,' new heavens,' and 'a new earth.' When should that be? Read the whole chapter; and you will find the Jews rejected and cut off; and from that time is that new creation of the evangelical world among the Gentiles.
Compare 2 Cor. 5:17 and Rev. 21:1,2; where, the old Jerusalem being cut off and destroyed, a new one succeeds; and new heavens and a new earth are created.
2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)
"That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).

John Locke(1705)
"That St. Paul should use 'heaven' and 'earth' for Jews and Gentiles will not be thought so very strange if we consider that Daniel himself expresses the nation of the Jews by the name of 'heaven' (Dan. viii. 10). Nor does he want an example of it in our Saviour Himself, who (Luke xxi. 26) by "powers of heaven" plainly signifies the great men of the Jewish nation. Nor is this the only place in the Epistle of St. Paul to the Ephesians which will bear this interpretation of heaven and earth. He who shall read the first fifteen verses of chap. iii. and carefully weigh the expressions, and observe the drift of the apostle in them, will not find that he does manifest violence to St. Paul's sense if he understand by "The family in heaven and earth" (ver. 15) the united body of Christians, made up of Jews and Gentiles, living still promiscuously among those twp sorts of people who continueds in their unbelief. However, this interpretation I am not positive in , but offer it as matter of inquiry to those who think and impartial search into the true meaning of the Sacred Scriptures the best employment of all the time they have." (Ephesians 2:9-10, in loc.)
Moses Stuart (1836)
(On Heb. 12:25-29) "That the passage has respect to the changes which would be introduced by the coming of the Messiah, and the new dispensation which he would commence, is evident from Haggai ii. 7-9. Such figurative language is frequent in the Scriptures, and denotes great changes which are to take place. So the apostle explains it here, in the very next verse. (Comp. Isa. 13:13; Haggai 2:21,22; Joel 3:16; Matt. 24:29-37). (Hebrews, in loc.)

Milton Terry(1898)
"That these texts may intimate or simply foreshadow some such ultimate reconstruction of the physical creation, need not be denied, for we know not the possibilities of the future, nor the purposes of God respecting all things which he has created. but the contexts of these several passages do not authorize such a doctrine. Isaiah 51:16, refers to the resuscitation of Zion and Jerusalem, and is clearly metaphorical. The same is true of Isa. 65:17, and 66:22, for the context in all these places confines the reference to Jerusalem and the people of God, and sets forth the same great prophetic conception of the Messianic future as the closing chapters of Ezekiel. The language of 2 Pet. iii, 10, 12, is taken mainly from Isa. 34:4, and is limited to the parousia, like the language of Matt. 24:29. Then the Lord made 'not only the land but also the heaven' to tremble (Heb 12:26), and removed the things that were shaken in order to establish a kingdom which cannot be moved (Heb. 12:27,28)." (Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 489).

Jonathan Edwards (1739)
"Thus there was a final end to the Old Testament world: all was finished with a kind of day of judgment, in which the people of God were saved, and His enemies terribly destroyed." (History of Redemption, vol. i. p. 445)

Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11 <../../Books/russ-ap2o.html>, Works, folio, 1721.).

C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

John Brown(1853)
" 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)

"It appears, then, that is Scripture be the best interpreter of Scripture, we have in the Old Testament a key to the interpretation of the prophecies in the New. The same symbolism is found in both, and the imagery of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets helps us to understand the imagery of St. Matthew, St. Peter, and St. John. As the dissolution of the material world is not necessary to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, neither is it necessary to the accomplishment of the predictions of the New Testament. But though symbols are metaphorical expressions, they are not unmeaning. It is not necessary to allegorise them, and find a corresponding equivalent for every trope; it is sufficient to regard the imagery as employed to heighten the sublimity of the prediction and to clothe it with impressiveness and grandeur. There are, at the same time, a true propriety and an underlying reality in the symbols of prophecy. The moral and spiritual facts which they represent, the social and ecumenical changes which they typify, could not be adequately set forth by language less majestic and sublime. There is reason for believing that an inadequate apprehension of the real grandeur and significance of such events as the destruction of Jerusalem and the abrogation of the Jewish economy lies at the root of that system of interpretation which maintains that nothing answering to the symbols of the New Testament prophecy has ever taken place. Hence the uncritical and unscriptural figments of double senses, and double, triple, and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. That physical disturbances in nature and extraordinary phenomena in the heavens and in the earth may have accompanied the expiring throes of the Jewish dispensation we are not prepared to deny. It seems to us highly probable that such things were. But the literal fulfillment of the symbols is not essential to the verification of prophecy, which is abundantly proved to be true by the recorded facts of history." (vol. i. p.200).

Holman Bible Dictionary
"Jesus as Doer of God's Mighty Works This One who was raised, the same One who died, had performed the miracles of God's kingdom in our time and space. John testified that in the doing of God's mighty works Jesus was the prophet sent from God (John 6:14). He healed all kinds of persons, a sign of God's ultimate healing. He raised some from the dead, a sign that He would bring God's resurrection life to all who would receive it. He cast out evil spirits as a preview of God's final shutting away of the evil one (Rev. 20). He was Lord over nature, indicating that by His power God was already beginning to create a new heaven and a new earth (Rev. 21:1). The spectacular impact of His mighty works reinforced and called to mind the power of His teachings. (J. Ramsey Michaels in the Holman Bible Dictionary.)

Origen(2nd Century)
"For if the heavens are to be changed, assuredly that which is changed does not perish, and if the fashion of the world passes away, it is by no means an annihilation or destruction of their material substance that is shown to take place, but a kind of change of quality and transformation of appearance. Isaiah also, in declaring prophetically that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, undoubtedly suggests a similar view. "(Principles, 2:6:4)

Now if these men are correct, what does that do to ones eschatology?

 

OK, but the one thing you are still missing completely is this present evil world being our only "blessed hope" if those things are true. (I'll have to read those more carefully tomorrow. Bur right off the bat, I see one of them speaking of the putting away of Satan as future. But isn't this apart of present reality in your view?)

 

Don't be too hard on them. Tradition is a hard thing to overcome. Only when one is ready to truely consider other interpretations will they begin to see what I believe is the truth. My hope in debating these things is perhaps someone else who reads the thread and truely is open-minded about preterism will search it out, study it, and find as I did it really does make sense and lines right up with scripture. We must accept however that there will be some who will never depart from thier tradition and creeds. </font>[/QUOTE]It seems a little to odd to criticize quoting books and commentaries and then quote a long list of books and commentaries...

If preterism lines right up with Scripture, then one question. What was the mark of the beast?

For me it's pretty simple. The Bible is inerrant. If flaws can be found within a position with basic questions, what will happen when you closely examine it?

Ed

 

Ed Jones

You need to get the FACTS about who quotes what, just as some of the MODERN day authors fail to get the biblical facts correct.

It was me who made the quote about following erroneous books and commentaries-- not Grasshopper. He is merely showing the support for the preterist view regarding the new heaven and earth in the pre-20th century record. And believe me he quoted only a fraction of that evidence. What I was referring to in my negative comment regarding Pre-Mil books and commentaries was that the Tim Lahaye's and Hal Lindsey's suppositions about the new heaven and new earth have no biblical backing, even when they seldom use scripture. They like to draw pictures of their eschatological views from opinions with little biblical support. When doing this, they then can invent whatever abstract interpretation they want-- and the others follow! How can someone take a reliable argument for support about a view using words like, "could", "might", "maybe", "I believe", etc. Or, when they are really in need of help, throw out the old 'dual meaning or fulfillment'. These men that Grasshopper listed, although fallible like any men, do in fact let the scripture interpret scripture. When you incorporate history that shows the fulfillment of biblical prophesies(i.e. Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21), the bible is shown to be true and accurate. Constantly inventing fulfillments which inevitably prove false, lends the Bible to be inaccurate and untrustworthy.