Any full preterists?

The completion of the church age will take place when ' . . . the fulness of the Gentiles comes' to a conclusion. [Romans 11:25]

Notice the age of the church. [Ephesians 3:10 & Matthew 16:18] Christ is building His church and then He will return. [I Thess. 4:17]

 

No; the Church continued to wait for a literal return of Christ. They did not see it in AD70, and I don't see teaching in the early church that said it was. It was a few centuries later, when persecution stopped, and the Church became accepted in the Empire, that people began feeling "Wow! The Kingdom of God is here!" But this was only the beginning of the "Dark Ages".
So much literal language is used, so one can give you back the same questions. What else did Paul say was only figurative? Maybe all of that stuff about salvation in Christ. Maybe it is just some universal "spirit of love", like the world insists now. Maybe both Heaven and Hell are here on earth, and it's only some sort of Nirvana or karma when you die? (As I said, this is surely left unrevealed and in your theory, and basically open to any speculation). If our resurrection was only "spiritual", maybe Christ's was also, like the JW's claim. In your view too, for these people who were led to believe and hope for something that they were to never see must have been crushing to their spirit. You will still suffer and be killed and die, you will still be surrounded by the abominable, wicked, etc. so all of that stuff about streets of Gold, and eternal peace and no sorrow, etc. just means that you are "redeemed" because the last vestige of the Old Covenant has been removed. Who knows what is after this. Yes, hope deferred, forever!
in something like this, you have to weigh which statments are more clear and thus more literal. You're taking a literal interpretation of one thing, spiritualizing everything else, and then forcing it all into one event that did not really fulfill all that was to be fulfilled, and the proof of this is all of the things left open by this theory.

That does not say "forever". "Ages" there is "genea", meaning generations. That's the Church for all generations, not all eternity. Now you're talking about our hermeneutics, but when you take a verse like that, you have to make sure the words are really saying what you think they are.

That's for now; the time being. The rapture is for when God finally judges the world. There are different timings of it, and my view has it later than the popular view, where we are taken before anything bad happens. Still, in this present age, we are in the world, not taken out of it. When this world is judged, God will take us out of it, because it will be over. You don't believe that. You believe this world of sin will go on forever, and the only way out of it is death into an unrevealed eternity.

Only in your hyperspiritualized, one dimensional tunnel vision view. It was one event, in a whole series of events in the world, and yes, it was imporatnt, but it is not equated with the return of Christ, except in your view where the only thing that is ever literal is "shortly" and "this generation". The spiritual presence of Christ began with the coming of the Spirit. There is no other "spiritual coming" after that, as that would constitute basically a second Spirit, or fourth member of the Godhead.
Now regarding Matt. 16; neither of you ever answered how you can picture pagan Roman armies sacking Jerusalem as "the Holy angels". Then, how "every man" was judged; even if that was Israel only, when not every man was killed or even captured. Next, why, for one, don't you take a further look at the Olivet prophecy; all the verses after the one about one stone not being on top of another. Did all of that stuff happen in the short time between then and AD70? False Christs? That was mostly after AD70? I know there was the one who led the revolt that was crushed, but Christ says "many", and later ads, "showing great signs and wonders"! Entire nations at war? Incereased famines and pestilences and earthquakes? (since there had not been known in the earth, it says elsewhere). I have seen the references to signs in the sky and the "end of the world" referring to judgment of Israel, but you can only spiritualize many of these things but so far. This judgment of Israel was the forerunner of the judgment of the whole world. All of this is about more than just Jerusalem. Remember, "judgment, to the Jew first, then the Gentile". You have judgment to the Jews only, then then the world of the gentiles continues on forever.
I was just a while ago, looking over one of my pages where I listed all of the scriptures on the apostasy of the Church, including Matthew 24:5-24, 2 Thess.2:1-12 1 Tim.4:1-3, 2 Tim.3:1-7, 4:1-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3, 3:3-15, 16, 1 John 2:18, 19. Looming behind all of this is coming judgment. Did all of this happen in the 30 years until AD70, then Christ "came", and it has been the Kingdom of God (with all such people "judged", and "outside" in the lake of fire already)? And this is talking about the church, not Israel.
No, while this apostasy was developing then, it was really after AD70 when it really exploded, and you as Church of Christ should be the first one pointing that out (well, maybe second, after Bob, the SDA )
So no, I believe the 2 Thess. passage is still for us, regarding people telling us Christ has already come, when ALL of this stuff has not happened yet, even by the wildest stretches of allegory.

When one mortal person talls another "soon", it can only be within their lifetimes. With God, this is not necessarily so. Yes, I often wonder why 2000 years. But just because I can't understand that, I'm not going to go and say, "well it all happened already; This is all God has promised us". That is basically losing hope. And taking every promise and making it for this age makes completely vague what God has for us for eternity. The only sure thing, it seems, is this short life in the church.

 

Time-statements must be interpreted in the context they were given. Last days would fit a 40 year time frame considering it is speaking of the end of the Old Covenant. Considering the Old Covenant was centuries in length “last days would fit. “At hand” would fit that same category.

If your father says he’ll visit you soon, that usually is measured in days or weeks. If he says he will retire soon that would normally be measured in a few years. But neither would be thought to be decades or centuries in time.

That is why Jesus said “some” would still be alive.

Matt 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.
28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

If you view the New Testament time as relative then how about the Old Testament.

If time is relative why in the Old Testament did He tell Daniel to seal His book for it is for many days in the future (8:26)? Yet say the exact opposite to John concerning Revelation? He seems to be giving us guidance as to when both these things would occur. Under your view they both mean the same.


Now notice in the Old Testament of one event that was at hand and one was not near. Why would God use different terms unless they were meant to give an indication to man of when they would happen.

Notice Ez. 12:21

21 And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,
22 Son of man, what is this proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand , and the fulfilment of every vision.

They were told it was “at hand”. Was it?

In Numbers it was not near.

Num. 24: 17 I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh : There shall come forth a star out of Jacob, And a sceptre shall rise out of Israel, And shall smite through the corners of Moab, And break down all the sons of tumult.

Notice an event that happened 40 years after prophesied:
Zeph:1
7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord Jehovah; for the day of Jehovah is at hand: for Jehovah hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath consecrated his guests.
and 14:
14 The great day of Jehovah is near , it is near and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man crieth there bitterly.

Here a prophecy is given that an event was “at hand” and “near.”

Another example: Ez 7:7


7 Thy doom is come unto thee, O inhabitant of the land: the time is come, the day is near , a day of tumult, and not of joyful shouting, upon the mountains.
8 Now will I shortly pour out my wrath upon thee, and accomplish mine anger against thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways; and I will bring upon thee all thine abominations.

It was near and shortly to happen.

Notice what the people said:

11:3 that say, The time is not near to build houses: this city is the caldron, and we are the flesh.

They too believe God was using time in the relative sense. But God gave them warnings in terms they could understand because it did come to pass upon them:

21 And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying,
22 Son of man, what is this proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the fulfilment of every vision.
24 For there shall be no more any false vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
25 For I am Jehovah; I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall be performed; it shall be no more deferred: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I speak the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord Jehovah.
26 Again the word of Jehovah came to me, saying,
27 Son of man, behold, they of the house of Israel say, The vision that he seeth is for many day to come, and he prophesieth of times that are far off.
28 Therefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: There shall none of my words be deferred any more, but the word which I shall speak shall be performed, saith the Lord Jehovah.

I believe when God communicates with man it is in terms man can understand. To say God gives us time-statements but we can’t really use them leads to nothing but confusion.

Why not take God at His word as to the “when”, and leave yourself room to error on the “how.”

What was being restored is Ex 34: 7 keeping lovingkindness for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.

John in preaching the Kingdom did this.

He did just that.

Jesus says John was the prophesied Elijah. Not a type. He is only a type if you have a view that forces Elijah into the future despite the words of Jesus.

Thats right. They like you thought He would bring in a physical Kingdom.


You seem to have the spiritual types first then the physical realities. The Bible teaches just the opposite.

Yes, metaphore for the New Covenant. But not the eternal Heaven.

Spiritual death. Separation from God.

.
Many are speaking of the Fall of Jerusalem and God's Judgement of the Harlot, but not all. It is appointed for man once to die and then the judgement.

You have completely lost me.

As I said earlier 2 Cor. 5 tells us what happens upon our death:
2 Corinthians 51 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

So if someone died at the age of 80, will they have a glorified Body of 80? Christ still had His scars will those with disabilities still have them such as being born with no hands? Will God create a hand for them in their glorified body or will it be strictly how Jesus was what you had is what you get?

So what are the dead in now? Anything? Or are they just floating around?

 

They are outside the city, but they are encouraged to come and drink from the water of life.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

Where is this water of life? It is in the New Heavens and New Earth:
Revelation 2:21 And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb,

So how can someone in Hell come and enter the city?
It also says anyone who has a clean robe(salvation) may enter in this city:

14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.

We are in the New Heavens and the New Earth and living in the New Jerusalem. The spiritual fulfillment of the Old Covenant physical types.

19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

At first glance I thought you had proven your point, however it doesn't say that returning to the ground was part of the curse. Also keep in mind these curses are dealing with Adam, not Eve. It seems to say that you shall have all these curses till you return to the ground. You could read that to say returning to the ground was always part of the original creation. He is just pointing out His curse till he dies.

By the way, what do you believe would have happened had they eaten of the Tree of Life before the fall? Or eaten of it after the fall before God separated it from them? I've often wondered about this.

Yes, but I don't believe that is the scriptual definition of "sting".

So that new heaven and earth in Is. 65:17 did exist?

The church is a spititual entity. All who are inside the New Jerusalem are clothed in white. Inside a church building(physical) you will find sinners.

Only to make sense in a physical fulfillment. If physical fulfillment was not what was intended, then it makes perfect sense as read. The Old Covenant and its physical types were pointing to the Spiritual realites of the New Covenant.

And what is more clear than the time-statements? Both the world order changed (Old Covenant economy) and the curse (separation from God) ended . To make everything a ridged, physical interpretation is to miss completely what I beleive God intended.

Again I ask, how would God describe the spiritual realm without using physical types and images man is familiar with? It can't be done. So in order to describe the coming spiritual realities of those 1st century Hebrew people, He used their type of language, idioms, and Old Covenant elements. That is why we of this culture and this time have a hard time understanding these things.

 

Acts and Josephus record all these things.

Here is an excellent series on the Olivet Discourse, well worth the time:

http://www.audiowebman.org/bbc/start/olivet.htm

End of the Age, not world. For signs in the skies see Josephus, he records some stuff happening in the sky that I have difficulty believing. The judgements were real, not "spiritualized".

 

'For signs in the skies see Josephus, he records
some stuff happening in the sky that I have difficulty believing. The
judgements were real, not "spiritualized".'

Ray is saying, 'We all have read how at Jesus' crucifixion that the sky became as darkness and an earthquake was part of God's program. [Matthew 27:54]

Did Josephus or any other historian speak of anything like is found in Revelation 1:7? The answer is no. No human being saw the Lord coming in the 'clouds' because when this darkness came over the land, Jesus was on the Cross.

The crucifixion scene and the Second Coming of Christ are worlds of time apart from each other.

 

1. Jesus told Caiaphus and the elders they would see it. Matt 26:64, He told His disciples some would still be alive to see it. Matt 16:28

2. Perhaps you should be more careful when you read the posts. No one said Jesus returned at His crucifixion.

3. Use a little less of your Tim Lahaye Prophecy notes and a little more scripture if you want serious responses. I am well aware of the Pre-Mill Dipsy. position, I was one for almost 40 years.

 

Here are some things Josephus and Tacitus wrote concerning those days:

The Signs That Preceded The Destruction

3. Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation (1); but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider (2), did not regard the denunciations that God made to them (3). Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year (4). Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour (5). This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it.


At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night (6). Now, those that kept watch in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal forshewed the desolation that was coming upon them.

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities (7). Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking (8), and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." (9)

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (Chilton, Jerusalem Under Siege <../Preterism/chilton-david_pp_01.html&gt

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian, and an husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity (10), came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" (11) This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say anything for himself, or anything peculiar to those that chastised him, but still he went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator- where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet did he not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was , "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" (12) And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for, as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last - "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately: and as he was uttering the very same presages, he gave up the ghost.

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13). Comp. Tacitus, Annals, xiv, 12, 22; xv, 22, 47; xvi, 13.

 

Once again, all that means is that it was ready to occur with John. In the OT, Messiah still had to come the first time and die and rise again. By John's time, all of that had occurred already, so nothing else prophetic or apart of the plan had to happen before the final events began unfurling.
Even though I did not argue on the date of John's works, still it is not proven to be AD65, and must be assumed so to fit Preterism. Remember, John was the bridge to the second century, with his disiple Polycarp, who was an Apostolic Father (early 2nd Century), and Polycarp's disciple Polycrates debating Roman bishops (by now ascending to primacy) over Passover/Easter.

The Hebrew word translated "at hand" is different from the Greek, which, as I showed last page, allow for a figurative meaning.

What proof do you have this is "all things"? This is from when God gave Moses the new tablets, which was like another chance. God always promised this if the people repented (and the judgments was for then they didn't repent). It was apart of and the heart of the Law. How can you arbitarily select this as something fulfilled by John?

Not that many, relatively speaking. The nation, as a whole, rejected him and Jesus.

That's like saying "People seeing Christ come back is figuative only if you have a view that forces the Second Coming to be spiritual despite the words of Jesus". (as well as negating the coming of Jesus in the Holy Spirit, AD33). One is a type, another is an antitype.

No, their mistake was expecting only one coming. Christ told Peter, in effect, that the physical Kingdom would be restored, but that that was up to the Father's timing, and not their concern. (A proof it would be far off).
The Bible teaches the opposite? According to your reading of the prophecies, there is no physical reality at all. That's why it's wrong.

Rev. 20 speaks of eternity. If that really refers to thie age, how do you know there is another "eternal heaven"?

"never dying" is eternal separation from God? I think you were answering the next question that you cut off; "what is death?" Still, I do not see where you are getting all these statments about what eternity is when all the scriptures teaching on it are said to refer to this life.

How do you know which is which? Your theory says the final judgment was in AD70!

just what I am saying. They way you are spiritualizing these things, you can spiritualize anything and everything in scripture, and people do (Christian Science, etc)

That's the resurrection body, which as 1 Cor. puts it, is sown, and then raised.

Christ's scars are a memorial of what He did for us. As for age and deformities, both are apart of the Fall, and will be among the things remedied in our new bodies. People believe the body will be whatever age it was at its peak in strength, but then, this will no longer be an "age". It will no longer be in a state of decay, which we call "aging".

I believe they are asleep in Christ. Now there are different interpretations of what that means, but the pre-resurrected state is not what we are promised. It is apparently all there is in your system.

Those in Hell can't enter in. That is the point of it. It does not mean they are there living among the saved. V.17 is an invitation to the reader (after reading all of these promises —including the river of life; encouraging him to come to Christ and take part of it), not those "outside the city", because they "shall in no wise enter in". Only those in the Lamb's Book of Life. And this after the proclamation "He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still, he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still" (v.11). Whoever is in, is in, and the wicked are said to be "outside", but this is another realm where they are truly "separated". This clearly is after the first death, resurrection and final judgment. Another thing that just occurred to me, is that in your view, there would be no first and second death, but physical death would mark both for the wicked. But this is not what any of the scriptures teach.

I knew you were going to say that. But it clearly is apart of the curse. Why mention "for out of the dust you were taken, and to the dust you shall return" if that was a given? He would not have had to return to the dust if he hadn't sinned. The Fall affected every part of man's being. Spiritually, he died instantly, physically, he would decay away, and decay is not apart of Creation as God designed it and called it "good".

I have too. A lot of us have. It is one of those great mysteries.

Whether it is the pain of spiritual death, or of physical death, it carries the same connotation. It is both.

That's what would have if Israel had accepted the Messiah (and John before Him, of course).

 

So if the sinners can still be physically present with the saints, then what difference does being spiritually "outside" mean?

The OT had physical types with the spiritual meanings behind them even then. The entire Law is an example. So the NT would be dual as well, with the immediate spiritual types being our down-payment to the ultimate realities in the resurrection.

But separation from God has not ended. There are billions of lost today (still in this realm, not finally separated yet). When I spoke of the world order, I meant the system of human govt. and sin. Israel was to be God's Government, but the lesson He wrote through them was that they too were sinners, and man needed a whole new nature. So as another nation of sinners, yes, they did in that sense represent the "old order" of the world, and God ended that phase of His plan. But that is not the end of the plan altogether. God will one day end the entire system of human govt. and sin.

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In thjat case, why then couldn't God simply tell them "Look, what the world needs is not a physical kingdom at all, but just to be saved from sin. That is IT! So in the new kingdom I am bringing you, even though you will still have to live in a world of sin and physical pain and death; you will still be persecuted, and hated of all nations, etc. but be of good cheer, when you die, you will go to Heaven. That is what is important". They would understand that. Why all the language that could easily be mistaken for a literal kingdom? Well, obviously, Jesus was not always as clear as He could be, for after all, the Jews though He would only come once and restore the physical kingdom. If they got that wrong, from reading the scriptures, then it is not always clear. A hint Jesus gave us, was speaking in parables to actually make it less clear, so that the hardned Jews wouldn't get it, but those called by Him would. So much of prophecy is in parables, and the constant reminder to us is "he who has ears to hear, let him hear"; "let him who has understanding calculate...". You are taking one word; "at hand", and then building this doctrine of a completely spiritual coming, and bending everything else to fit, leaving an uncertain, undiscussed eternity, a coming of the Holy Spirit that accomplished nothing —the Church was still lost, and they needed another divine presence for Jesus to actually be with them; and a world where death and suffering continues forever; apparently apart of God's original creation all along anyway. So many questions unanswered, and loose ends left open. You are the one making the same mistake as the Jews, not me and that is how we know which. They wanted it right now, and you wanted it right then.

OK, so there were false Messiahs we overlooked. I'll grant you that. Still, it got worse after AD70, rather than the Church becoming the Kingdom. One thing I do not see in these propecises is that "these things will all continue in the world after I come in the clouds and judge all, but they will be 'outside the city', so it won't matter to you". No, Christ's final return would mark the end of all of this sin on earth. That mean that whatever happened back then could be no more than a type. Once again, I am not doing that just to win the argument the easy way. That is how it must be to fit in with what the prophecises are actually promising.
As for "nations", he is right that it is "ethnos", but he includes Israel, as Josephus records Israel was fighting with other groups then. (He also says these are the "nations" that are judged). But "ethnos" generally means nations other than Israel; "foreign", or "pagan". It is basically like "gentiles" or "goyim". It is the same word translated "heathen" in all the NT, and most of the words translated "Gentiles". (when it is not specifically "Greek" ("Hellen"). I see that sometimes it is used in regard to Israelites, but this is specified as being the person's "nation", as compare with the others (as another division with its puppet leader in the Roman Empire). The way it is used in Olivet, it seems to mean major Gentile nations. Further proof of this; Curtis blatantly skips over the other word used; "kingdom" (basilea), meaning rule or reign. This too refers to the gentile nations; the ones who were ruling; not Israel, which was already captive.
And "nation shall rise up against nation" seems to signify major world-shaking wars, not the relatively minor skirmishes within the Empire(that are not even well known) that Josephus and Tacitus mention.

So signs in the sky might be literal/visible. But then the historicist SDA's and others use claims that the sun, moon and stars were literally darkened or become red, etc. a few centuries ago. If it is true, then once again, we have the past preterist type, the historicist type, and a future antitype, proving pluralism.

Also, in my response to Eschatologist regarding the Temple, I forgot to mention, that if you want to be literal, "there shall not be one stone on top of another" has not been finally fulfilled, because there is still a whole wall of a foundation that stands, and Jews still pray at today.

 

Someone said,'3. Use a little less of your Tim Lahaye Prophecy notes . . . '

I never read one page from Tim Lahaye's books.

As I said not one soul ever confirmed that the Lord returned for His church, to date. If He had it would have been repeatedly written down in Christian history.

Pre-trib., Pre-Millinillianism is the truth and has no holes in its theology. Jesus is coming the next time at the rapture--for His loved ones in the faith.

70 A.D. is only about the fall of Jerusalem and the dispersion of the Israelite people into the then known world. If everything happened then, we are out on a branch with no place to go and without a blessed hope for the future life, which John speaks about in John 3:16 as everlasting life.

 

Since you are interested in what our church fathers taught,none were pre trib. Not till the 1800's anyway. You see no holes because you cannot see.

 

Grasshopper,

I have studied the church fathers and as you probably know some of them had holes in their theology.

The Thessalonian epistles distinguish between the Christ coming for His church (I Thess. 4:17) and Christ coming with His church from Heaven at the Second Coming of Christ as duly noted in Revelation 19:11 & 14. I agree with the Apostle Paul and John.

Start from here and you will begin to get your eschatology correct.

 

Good, then we agree, we cannot just say something is truth just because the church fathers say so.

You agree with Paul and John?
Paul says later in II Thes. 1:6 He would give them rest over their persecutors at His coming. Did He fail to do so? In your view He only gave them a false hope. In II Thess. 2:1-4 They thought they had missed His coming? How could they think they had missed it? Perhaps because they understood His "parousia" in a different way than you. Perhaps Paul taught them differently than you believe.

Do you also agree with John when he said the events were near and shortly to happen (Rev 1:1-3)? No, I don't think you agree with John on that.

Start with Rev 1:1-3,James 5:8,Matt 16:27-28 etc...then you will get your eschatology correct.

 

Grasshopper,

If we are going to learn from each other you have to understand what I said, and then try to disagree with it. In stead, you run somewhere else to other verses. Again, do you understand the difference between Christ coming for His church and coming with His church from Heaven to earth namely in Jerusalem?

I said, 'The Thessalonian epistles distinguish between the Christ coming
for His church (I Thess. 4:17) and Christ coming with His church
from Heaven at the Second Coming of Christ as duly noted in
Revelation 19:11 & 14. I agree with the Apostle Paul and John.'

You said, 'You agree with Paul and John?
Paul says later in II Thes. 1:6 He would give them rest over their persecutors
at His coming. Did He fail to do so? In your view He only gave them a false
hope.'

The Apostle Paul did not give a false hope because all of those who died in the faith, will rise from the death at the rapture. The congregation knew they were going through difficult experiences because of their faith in Jesus.'

In II Thess. 2:1-4 They thought they had missed His coming? How
could they think they had missed it?'

They thought they missed His coming and that they had seen their loved ones and friends die, and wondered about where their soul went, and what had happened to them. We, of course, know they went to Heaven. [II Cor. 5:8]

You said, 'Perhaps because they understood His "parousia" in a different way than you.'

I am saying, 'They had now knowledge of what happened to their dead saints. This is the reason for the writing of I & II Thessalonians. Then they knew what would happen at the resurrection from the dead.'

You said, 'Perhaps Paul taught them differently than you believe.'

Ray is saying, 'God is still telling His church to look forward to the blessed hope-the rapture of the Christian church, both of the dead and the living at His appearing. [I Thess. 4:16-17 & I Cor. 15-the Resurrection chapter of the Bible.'

You said, 'Do you also agree with John when he said the events were near and shortly
to happen (Rev 1:1-3)? No, I don't think you agree with John on that.'

The first three chapters of Revelation dealt with the seven churches of Asia. These events happened and the churches functioned after 95 A.D.

From chapter four through twenty-two we have all of the judgments that will yet appear after the rapture in the Great Tribulation until seven years have passed and then Jesus will appear with His army of saints from Heaven as described in Revelation 19:11 through the end of the chapter. This will be the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.'

You said, 'Start with Rev 1:1-3,James 5:8,Matt 16:27-28 etc...then you will get your
eschatology correct.'

I am saying about James 5:8 that God's people, His saints, are still living out the Christian life on this earth with a living hope that Jesus can appear for us at any moment. History refuses to say that neither the Rapture, the Great Tribulation, and the Second Coming of Christ has taken place already. This being the case, we still look forward to when our Lord will come for His glorious and worshipful church.'

This is why the Preterist view is so bizarre. History remains quiet with closed lips about the three above supernatural events on the Lord's future calendar of Divine events.

Matthew 16:27-28. 'Verse 27 refers to the Rapture of the church. Verse 28 suggests that some standing there will be alive to see the Transfiguration of Christ who is greater than Moses and Elijah as found in the next verse, verse one of chapter seventeen. Verse 28 has nothing to do with the Rapture or the Second Coming of Christ. Jesus coming in His Kingdom is portrayed to Peter, James and John when Moses stepped out of eternity briefly representing the Law, and Elijah made his appearance in the sky representing the Prophets. The lesson learned here is that Jesus is greater than the Law and the Prophets; He is Deity Personified as He, the Son of man came in His Kingdom to show His superior greatness. [Study Mark chapter 9 and Luke 9:28]

God the Father acknowledged Jesus as being the Savior of the world in Luke 9:35 and Jesus came in His Kingdom power and authority and Luke said, 'And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. In the end when we stand before God it will not matter if we knew about Moses or Elijah, but we must know, follow and love Jesus Christ. [John 5:22]

Matthew 16:28 ties into or dove-tails with Jesus coming miracle of the Transfiguration.'

Regards . . .

 

Wrong.

Wrong.

I'll answer the second one first. In 1742 and 1788, a Baptist Reverend by the name of Morgan Edwards wrote concerning the rapture and tribulation. He saw the rapture taking place before the tribulation, although it must be noted he thought that the tribulation would only be three and a half years. The book he wrote is entitled "Millenium, Last Days Novelties."

As to the first, there is an apocalyptic sermon from the 4th century(although post-millenialists prefer to date it around the 6th or 7th century). It is believed to have been written by Ephrem of Nisbis, a Syrian Church Father. Most Post-Millenialists tend to refer to it as "Psuedo-Ephrem." The Author writes "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

 

Well, did they get rest then? According to your view, they continued to suffer persecution after this "coming". If you try to make this spiritual, first, the fact that it specifies "persecutors" means it is more than just spiritual; the spiritual "rest" would help us with all our trials, not just persecution. Second, Jesus said in the Gospels that they would have this spiritual rest if they come after Him. That was right away, (and available to the rest of the Church when the Spirit was poured out AD33), not AD70.

No, not what Paul taught them, but yes, they believe something more like your view, and Paul corrects them by showing what must happen first. Even the AD64-70 events that we have mentioned do not seem to completely fulfill this, such as the lawless one. (Does not completely match Nero or any other emperor, and certainly not any Jewish leader). Also, even with the false messiahs in Acts and those who followed them, still, this did not equal a "falling away" in the Church to the extent Paul is suggesting.

 

Not after the Jews were killed and dispersed. It was the Judaizers who were accusing,persecuting and killing members of the early church.

The man of lawlessness was already at work. That puts him in the 1st century context. There are some who believe it to be one of the leaders of the Zealots.

What verse indicates to what extent the falling away would be according to Paul.
I think many fell prey to the Judaizers.

 

Let me ask you some questions so I can get your understanding.

1. Do any saints come with Christ at the rapture?

2. Are all the wicked resurrected at the end of the Mill.

3. Does Christ come again at the end of the Mill.?

4. Does I Thess. 4 speak of the rapture or the second coming?

5. Does the "church age" end at the rapture?

6. Does 2 Thess. 1 speak of the church or Israel?

7. Does 2 Thess 1:4-7 speak of the Second Coming?

 

I am somewhat interested in preterism, as I always did want to know what the audience relevant types were, and it helps give a better idea of what the antitypes may be. They can be no more than typical fulfilments, because of the resurrection, and other points being discussed.

Two sites that advocate preterism are http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/ and http://www.preterism.info/
The first for all purposes denies the bodily resurrection of Christ, on the page Does 1 Corinthians 15 Teach a Physical or a Spiritual Resurrection?.

Also, it's like He really didn't die either, since this "spirit body" is what is really important. The site contains a link to the Campbellistic bible.ca, so I don't know if it's not cultic. David B. Curtis, whose audio sermon was linked to earlier, wrote several articles on the site.

A bog theme is the verse earlier referenced; "the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual", in which I was said to "reverse" that. But what is ignored is that the spiritual includes the restoration of the physical, though in stages. We start out with the corrupt physical. Then, the invisible spiritual plus the corrupt physical, as our "downpayment" for the ultimate; the spiritual plus a restoration of the physical. That's what we believe with Israel (first the nation, now the church; then a restoration of a visible kingdom); Adam was physical, the spiritual in a mortal body, then spiritual in a glorified body.

Somewhere I saw a supposed proof that Revelation was written before AD70, because he mentions the beast in ch. 17, which was Nero, and the seven hills of Rome, etc. so it must have been while he lived. But first of all, that puts the cart before the horse. We are using that interpretation to prove itself. I do believe ever moreso, that that was the typical fulfullment. But it is still possible that John did write this afterward, using the symbolism that people would associate with Nero, and futurizing it, which would definitely show, what else, but that all of that was but a shadow of a greater antitypical fulfillment to come.

Here are some sites critical of preterism.

http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/gentry_preterism.html

http://www.apocalipsis.org/preterism.htm

Points out (Phil 3:21 NIV) "who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
The previous verse mentions "eagerly wait for the Savior". V.12-16 mention "pressing on to the goal for the prize", of the "upward call", of which we have not yet "attained", completely, but only to a "degree". This is precisely one of the passages that tie our whole Christian walk to the resurrection. But to say it is all past, then we cannot even get the Christian living parts out of it while throwing the future element away. It is all tied together.

http://www.tribulationforces.com/revelationdate.shtml

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

http://members.aol.com/pilgrimpub/primer.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/august99.htm