What must one do to be saved???

DHK:
Water contains no miraculous power. Furthermore, Baptism and repentance are not the same thing. Baptism does not bring repentance. Biblical repentance preceeds baptism. Acts 2:38.
Baptism washes away sins by the blood of Christ. Rev.1:5,Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:4,5. Baptism is an expression of faith in God and the blood of Christ to do what I could never do for myself. Eph.1:7, Eph. 3:12. Baptism is a part of salvation, not the whole.
If I affrimed that baptism was the only thing, I would be guilty of the same ERROR AS YOU IN CLAIMING THAT FAITH ONLY SAVES.
Your arguement is not only unscriptural, but it does not make much sense either. You claim it is faith alone. Yet, you also believe in repentance which makes two things. You believe in grace that makes three. When I have been with someone else, I was not alone.

 

To All:
Sorry, about the duplicate post. However, some things need to be repeated.

 

This is interesting - to say the least.

We have a Church of Christ adherent who recognizes that baptism is necessary unto salvation, yet can't quite demonstrate "how" it is necessary. It is obvious that baptism is necessary, but the process of stringing Bible verses together to explain this doesn't quite bring about a clear understanding. Also, a lack of a deeper theology contribute to the confusion at hand.

On the other side, we have Protestants who believe adamently that baptism is not necessary unto salvation, which is a belief that runs - I believe - contrary to what the Bible itself witnesses to; however, this belief stems from Anabaptist tradition.. not an honest rendering of what Scripture says (take for instance, 1 Peter 3:18-21).

And then, to top the debate off, the battle cry of the Protestant Revolt - "Sola Fide" - is martyred by its continual misuse. Sola Fide, in its historical usage, refers not to faith apart from baptism but to faith apart from living a holy life (which entails good things a person does - excluding completely the reference to any sort of Christian rituals).

Confusion abounds.. between different Christians who go "by the book alone". It seems to me that Christ wouldn't allow for this sort of doctrinal confusion to occur in his Church - especially on such a basic and simple doctrine such as baptism.

But, the blind will continue to lead the blind; until, we seek out authentic authority. Did Christ give us 12 apostles who lived in time, formed churches, and appointed bishops like Timothy and Titus? Or, did Christ write the Bible and hand it to humanity? Did the Bible come from the context of the living, breathing Church? Or, did the Bible come before the Church, and the Church, from the beginning, has stood upon the private interpretation of the completed 73 books of Scripture?

Catholic? or Protestant?

God bless,

Carson

 

"Well, this time the word hell is explicitly used...Actually, it says hell. At least in the KJV."

And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to appear rude, but where do you get your authority or expertise to claim such a thing? The KJV of the Bible is the most scrutinized book ever written in the history of mankind. It was translated by the best able scholars who lived at the time, and it has been continuously reviewed by scholarly academia.

And it is more than the literal use of the word "hell" that indicates Christ went into hell after he died, but also his own reference to comparing himself to the happenings of Jonah:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." - Matthew 12:40

And it is very possible that "Hades," which you probably believe was the holding place of the saved until Christ had redeemed them, was actually a part of hell. For in the story of Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, those in an apparent lake of fire could see those on the other side of some apparent "gulf." (Luke 16:19-31)

And the Bible reveals that the dead came out of that place when Christ died, and were seen in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52). Therefore Christ, who is God, would have had to be in such a place, in one way or another, in order to release these people through his power.

"...do you believe that the earthly body of Jesus is still with him?"

Well, you are entitled to your belief, but then where is his earthly blood which was poured out upon the ground? Do you think he retained enough of his blood to keep him alive after he was pierced through his side? Is not his blood also a part of his earthly body?

"If our sins are forever paid for, which they are, and therefore they are forever separated from the judgment of God, which they are, then that which redeemed us is also eternally separated from God along with that sin."

The deed of dying for us is eternal, and that is not "according to [me]," but according to the Bible. I am sorry if you are not able to discern this.

If it was not eternal, than he would need to die again, and there would therefore be no hope for us.

"But this man, after he had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;" - Hebrews 10:12

One sacrifice is good FOR EVER, therefore this sacrifice is covering our sin, forever. Therefore this sacrifice is forever with our sin.

As I said before, I am sorry if you are not able to discern this.

"Christ only needed to die once for our sins to be forever forgiven and atoned for."

Because that is a part of death.

"No need to feel sorry for me, for I have eternal life, thanks to the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which eternally atones for my sin."

My confidence was in the life of Christ being sacrificed for my sins. Life is in the blood. And a part of death is hell. Jesus shed his life for me, and thus died for me. And his death was complete by going to where the dead go, which is hell.

I'm sorry, but it is you who needs to seriously evaluate your own theology.

And once again, I'm sorry, but I also have a feeling that you are somewhat of a legalist, as you appear to me as a person who is trying to reduce the importance of the death of Christ, and thus desperately searching for a way to dismiss grace. Please forgive me if my suspicions are wrong.

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." - I Corinthians 6:20

"Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." - I Corinthians 7:23

"... even denying the Lord that bought them..." - II Peter 2:1

"... which he hath purchased with his own blood." - Acts 20:28"

I don't know what faith you belong to, but I have never experienced a person strive so hard to deny something that cannot be truthfully taken away. Christ paid for our sins. If you wish to deny that and strive against that, then I can only question the foundation from which you try to do so, for your efforts are in vain. If you do not think that what Christ did was to pay for our sins, then how will our sins ever be paid for? For the Bible says that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). However, it will not surprise me if you will also say that that is a mistranslation, too.

If his payment was not of punishment, but of only blood, then why was he nailed to a cross, and beaten beforehand? Why not just insert a bleeding device, let him bleed a little, and then let him go on his way? Sir, it pleased God to bruise him, as Isaiah 53:10 states, and this means that God was satisfied in the punishment that was due us, by Christ taking it upon himself. Justice demands justice, and justice in the case of sin demands the punishment of death unto all who have sinned. Therefore Christ bore this punishment for us, by dying for us.

The soul of Christ is also mentioned as an "offering of sin," in Isaiah 53:10, and this means the entire death of Christ, the entire life of Christ being given for the sins of mankind.

The payment was our punishment being taken by Christ. The cleansing of our passed sin was washed away by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. And the cleansing of our inward man, our spirits, is by the circumcision of our hearts by the power of God and the birth of the Holy Spirit.

However, the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

God bless.

 

Carson:
I understand and have made it abundantly clear as to what baptism does. Let me make it simple from the New Testament.
1. Baptism is for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38.
2. How? By the blood of Christ.Rev.1:5.
3. When? One is baptized into his death. Romans 6:4,5 in water. Acts 8: 39;22:16.
4. Why? Men are under sin when they transgress God's law. God's justice demands payment. Romans 3:23;6:23
5. Jesus Christ became the propiation for us. I Jn. 2:2. His blood satisfied God's justice. Romans 6:23, Hebrews 9:22;10:22,23.
6. Baptism is an expression of our faith in the redemptive work of Christ who satisfied the justice of God. It is through faitfhulness in responding to God that provided God's mercy and grace that saves. Romans 5:1,2, Hebrews 11:6. It is our faith that acesses the precious blood and salvation found in baptism. I Pet.1:17,18, 3:21, Rev.1:5, Eph. 1:7, Acts 22:16. That is what the good book says.
Of course, you do not understand it.You do not accept the New Testament as authority. But, That is your problem, not mine.
Funny, you get so excited about Augustine but care little about what the inspired writers have to say. I guess that says a lot about a Catholic.

 

Are you some kind of Baptist-JW? You don't believe that Jesus was raised bodily? When He arose, didn't He tell Thomas to put his finger in the nail prints? SEE!!! Jesus WAS raised bodily. Jesus' body was not eternally separated from God and all that other mumbo jumbo that you want to believe. HE AROSE WITH HIS EARTHLY BODY, AND THEN ASCENDED WITH IT.

The word 'hell' comes from the root 'hel' (to destroy) and is too loose in interpretation to effectively use - I'd rather not use it all. (1) Sheol/Hades is the realm of the dead (inside which are paradise [where Jesus went] and torment) where only souls and not bodies go (2) Gehenna is the lake of fire in Revelation, which no one is in yet, because both the body and soul go there together (3) Tartaros is the prison where the angels who sinned are being held until the judgement

Jonah has nothing to do with hell, and hell is not anywhere in the Bible; hell is just a mythological name that the KJV translators decided to put into the Bible. There is no place called hell. There is a place of eternal punishment by fire, but it's called Gehenna and Jesus didn't go there - He went to Hades/Sheol. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=hell

Easton's Bible Dictionary:

-----

For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay. (Psalm 16:10 New American Standard)

H7585. sheol, sheol, [982d]; of unc. der.; underworld (place to which people descend at death):-- Sheol(66). (New American Standard Concordance)

To see that sheol is not hell (as in eternal punishment), carefully examine the following verses and compare the NAS to the KJV. The NAS will normally leave sheol untranslated (transliterated as 'Sheol') while the KJV will normally translate it 'grave' or 'pit' with the 31 exceptions where they translate it 'hell.' It occurs 65 times and the KJV only translates it as 'hell' 31 times; that's hardly consistent.

Gen 37:35
Gen 42:38
Gen 44:29
Gen 44:31
Num 16:30
Num 16:33
Deu 32:22
1 Sam 2:6
2 Sam 22:6
1 Ki 2:6
1 Ki 2:9
Job 7:9
Job 11:8
Job 14:13
Job 17:13
Job 17:16
Job 21:13
Job 24:19
Job 26:6
Psa 6:5
Psa 9:17
Psa 16:10
Psa 18:5
Psa 30:3
Psa 31:17
Psa 49:14
Psa 49:15
Psa 55:15
Psa 86:13
Psa 88:3
Psa 89:48
Psa 116:3
Psa 139:8
Psa 141:7
Prov 1:12
Prov 5:5
Prov 7:27
Prov 9:18
Prov 15:11
Prov 15:24
Prov 23:14
Prov 27:20
Prov 30:16
Eccl 9:10
Song 8:6
Isa 5:14
Isa 14:9
Isa 14:11
Isa 14:15
Isa 28:15
Isa 28:18
Isa 38:10
Isa 38:18
Isa 57:9
Ezek 31:15
Ezek 31:16
Ezek 31:17
Ezek 32:21
Ezek 32:27
Hosea 13:14
Amos 9:2
Jonah 2:2
Hab 2:5

[ August 14, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura ]

 

Hey, Carson, make yourself useful and talk about whether Jesus actually went to gehenna (hell) or not.

 

Perry you said:

"The garbage coming out of the seminaries eventually leads to universalism."

I can also argue that the garbage coming out of preacher schools and hardline COC colleges eventually leads to legalism and cultism.

You also said that I was attacking the messenger. No I was attacking a message in which Acts 2:38 is used by throwing out particular parts they don't want to use. Many in the COC do not even believe the second part of Acts 2:38. They don't believe we recieve the holy spirit. If these people don't believe the second part of Acts 2:38 then their baptism according to your philosophy is also not valid. Scripture is quite clear that the holy spirit is more than just a book.

 

Jerrybrooke,

Okay I will agree that there are many different interpretations regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spririt. However the most exegetical understanding to me so far is that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Act 2:38 was for first century christians and was the miraculous aspect of the HS.

But JB, do you agree that baptism is for/unto the pardon of one's denatured and permanently adulterated self?

Perry

 

Jerrybrooke are you familiar with what Universalism is? It means that all will be saved somehow. MY point is that denomiational "theology"(a word not found anywhere in the bible) is a system which leads to the gravest of errors.. and eventually into universalism and humanism.

Perry

 

The New Testament writers wrote in Koine Greek, not in Elizebethan English and the word used was Hades. Hades is the unseen realm of the dead, hell is the lake of fire which according to Revelation has not had it's tenants move in yet. Jesus redeemed us by paying the penalty of our sins which was death when He shed His blood on the cross. Christ was in Hades for 3 day, not hell.

For (6) I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died (7) for our sins (8) according to the Scriptures, - 1 Corinthians 15:3 NASB

 

Perry I am familiar with universalism and I do not believe all are going to be saved. I do not believe everyone who "says the Lord's prayer" or "follows the five steps" is a Christian. I do not believe all will make it to heaven in the end by being good or otherwise.

I believe my sins are pardoned by the blood of Jesus Christ. No less. No more. Jesus paid it all. All to HIM I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain. HE washed it white as snow.

Who saves? Jesus Saves. Not Church of Christ saves and not baptism saves. Also no matter how many good works I do and no matter how much I obey or understand, I will never merit salvation. Salvation is a gift from Jesus Christ and no amount of obedience, work, or understanding will ever change that.

Let me ask you something Perry. Is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection; the finished work of Christ not enough? Do we have to add to it?

 

The death burial and resurrection are enough, BUt make no mistake, we must access His grace. And there is only one point of justification. This point of justification involves a physical response.

Perry

 

Perry you said:

"Okay I will agree that there are many different interpretations regarding the indwelling of the Holy Spririt. However the most exegetical understanding to me so far is that the "gift of the Holy Spirit" mentioned in Act 2:38 was for first century christians and was the miraculous aspect of the HS."

Verse 39 of Acts 2 plainly shows that the gift of the holy spirit was not just for first century Christians.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

I believe we should be baptized according to Acts 2:38 because of the remission of sins. To identify with Christ. Without blood their is no remission of sins. Christ's blood.

 

Ephesians 2:8-10 says that we access God's grace through faith.

 

So I take it you believe we must add to the finished work of the cross.

I believe otherwise.

I must get off this thing now before my wife kills me.

 

Who is the saviour? I say it is Christ, who is the Lord our God, alone (as does the Bible: "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no [Is 43:3; 45:21; Hos 13:4] savior [Is 44:6, 8] besides Me. - Isaiah 43:11), and so I trust in Him alone receiving His gift of grace to me.

For (1) by grace you have been saved (2) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (3) the gift of God;
9 (4) not as a result of works, so that (5) no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, (6) created in (7) Christ Jesus for (8) good works, which God (9) prepared beforehand so that we would (10) walk in them - Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB

Saved by grace through faith (ie. trust), not of ourselves, the gift of God, not as a result of works, created in Christ for good works, not by good works but for good works.

 

"Well, you are entitled to your belief, but then where is his earthly blood which was poured out upon the ground? Do you think he retained enough of his blood to keep him alive after he was pierced through his side? Is not his blood also a part of his earthly body?"

"Are you some kind of Baptist-JW?"

What do you mean by "JW?"

"Raised" where?

Does that say that Jesus was raised into heaven bodily, and that he remained in the same body once he got there?

Don't put words in my mouth, please, nor please don't try to confuse the issues at hand. I asked you a question in the last post, and that was what about the blood of Christ which poured upon the ground? Was that blood gathered up and put back into Christ? How do you rationalize this? Is that "mumbo jumbo," or is "mumbo jumbo" a coined phrase you use when you apparently can't answer another's questions?

"And it is very possible that "Hades," which you probably believe was the holding place of the saved until Christ had redeemed them, was actually a part of hell."

Well, then perhaps you should write your own translation of the Bible. But I hope you don't mind if I trust real linguists and scholars over a poster on an Internet forum.

Uh huh, and who told you this? Someone who's been there?

"And it is more than the literal use of the word "hell" that indicates Christ went into hell after he died, but also his own reference to comparing himself to the happenings of Jonah:"

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." - Matthew 12:40

Says who, you? Were you there when the scholars translated the KJV of the Bible?

I'm sorry, but once again I will have to go with them over you. You have convinced me of nothing.

Once again, I trust the KJV of the Bible over your explanation and references.

I see no conflict in the word hell being used, after reading that. I'm sorry, but I therefore do not share your assertion and contention.

I read each cited scripture you presented, and it convinced me even more that the word "hell" is indeed appropriate to use in place of "Sheol." Perhaps you yourself should read these verses again, and pay attention beyond just the word used for "sheol," and instead see how it was used at times as a place of "pain," and a place of the "wicked."

The Hebrew language cannot be translated word for word straight across the board, without an understanding as to how words are used in the Hebrew. In Hebrew just as in English, there are often more than one definition of a word, and therefore proper definitions must be applied in accordance to how the word is being used. The scholars who translated the KJV knew this, as they were exceedingly experts in their field. They did translate the KJV word for word, as the KJV is a formal equivalence translation, however one must understand that they had to translate the proper definition of the word into English. And using their expertise, and I'm sure discernment through the blessings of the Holy Spirit, they did.

I have seen nothing written to convince me that the word hell is not properly used in Psalm 16:10, nor in Acts 2:27. And I do indeed discern that the analogy to Jonah by the Lord was about him being in "hell" for three days before he rose from the dead. It doesn't say he was in the "lake of fire," but in hell. Apparently there is more to hell than just the lake of fire, as I tried to explain to you before.

God bless.

 

The Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the New Testament who wrote in Greek and the Greek word Hades was used. If I remember correctly Gehenna was the name of a garbage dump outside Jerusalem that was constantly on fire which is why the is used to refer to hell which is the eternal lake of fire described in Revelation and as far as we can tell by what Revelation tells us, that place is currently empty. If Jesus is in hell, He did not defeat death because that would mean death has a hold on Him. The Bible says that He did defeat death, and it also says that He was raised and that His body is no longer in the tomb and it is now in heaven.

 

Well if that's true, then why was the word "hades" originally used here, if hades is not also hell:

"And in hell ("hades" in the original Greek) he lift up his eyes, being in torments and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in torment in this flame." - Luke 16:23&24

As I have just shown you, hades contains hell; if you are able to discern it. This means that hell is in hades and/or hades in hell.

This means the scholars of the KJV of the Bible knew what they were doing.

Jesus indeed went into hell, if he went into hades.

God bless.