Is Speaking inTongues of the Devil?

DHK... Knowledge passes away when that which is perfect (LOVE) is established IN US. PERFECTED IN LOVE= LOVE THAT SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE=Known and read by ALL= The WHOLE WORLD (((WILL)))) IF You have LOVE for one another.

It does not say when the BIBLE IS PERFECT that which is perfected is perfected IN US through Faith so WE can be LIVING EPISTLES written not with INK but by the Spirit of the living God.

Love is the GOAL of our faith we are PERFECTED IN LOVE. These THINGS that pass away are they which pass out of the experience of the believer bringing us into the full measure of Christ in us unto the perfect man and full stature of Christ.

We are made complete in Him (Love) as He IS (Love) so also are WE IN THIS WORLD. Reflecting the GOAL of our faith (which He is the Author and finisher of).

He didn't just die and drop a book out of the sky.

God Bless

Seth3

 

Study the passage first Seth, and then get back to me. "When that which is perfect "is come" then that which is in part shall be done away." According to your interpretation, love never existed at that time (the time of Paul), for it was yet to come). Ridiculous.
DHK

 

Love is to PASS into our hearts and be established by FAITH. Gods not dead, He works continually in hearts.

God is Love... Don't tell me Love did not exist in Pauls time THATS ridiculous.

Read the WHOLE BOOK DHK. We KNOW IN PART WE PROPHESY IN PART but that which is PERFECT COME (INTUR HEARTS as I see it) that which is imperfect goes away. A LOVE that surpasses knowledge. Therefore you no longer carry the book under your arm you have the WORD written in your HEART and BECOME a LIVING EPISTLE.

Seth3

 

That is not what it says Seth. You are adding to the Scripture. It does not say into our hearts. And besides that you are deliberately changing the tense to make it fit your own ideas.
"When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."
First, the Old English word "perfect" means complete, or even mature. Are you saying that love was not complete or mature in the time of Christ? That Christ's love was not perfect? that the love of Paul was not mature love? That that love which is complete had not come yet? That is a ridiculous position to hold as I have pointed out to you. Christ had already come. His love is perfect. They were not waiting for love to come. The tense is perfect. They were waiting for something to be completed as the word "perfect" means. There was no "love" to be completed. That doesn't make sense; in fact it is contradictory to Scripture.
DHK

 

Gods love is absolutely perfect, but He desires US to be an EXPRESSER of it. IF we love one another God dwelleth in us.

1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, IN HIM verily is the love of God PERFECTED: hereby know we that we are in him.

1John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is PERFECTED IN US.

Faith is a GIFT, the grace of God is not WITHOUT EFFECT in ones life. If it had no effect it would be a FORM OF GODLINESS and I DO NOT DENY the POWER OF IT. Which means the inworkings of faith and the outworkings of faith which is love.

God bless

Seth3

 

Ephes 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which PASSETH KNOWLEDGE, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Ephes 4:1 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE:

1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, IN HIM verily is the love of God PERFECTED: hereby know we that we are in him.

1John 4:8 He that loveth NOT KNOWETH NOT God; for God is love.

1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.


1John 4:17 Herein is our love MADE PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD.

1John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth IS NOT MADE PERFECT IN LOVE.


1Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are TAUGHT OF GOD to love one another.

1Corinth 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Gal 5:6 faith which worketh by love.

1Thes 3:12 And the LORD MAKE YOU to INCREASE AND ABOUND IN LOVE in love one toward another, and toward all [men], even as we [do] toward you:


God bless

Seth3

 

Seth, I encourage you to study your Bible before you come out and make such statements and quote Scripture like this. The discussion revolves around 1Cor.13:8-13, which you allege is love perfected. Please study the passage in question. Paul would not say that love is something that is yet to come. That would mean that love in his time did not exist. You just quoted:

1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, IN HIM verily is the love of God PERFECTED: hereby know we that we are in him.

That contradicts your interpretation of the passage in question.
But when that which is perfect is come..
That which is perfect, at the time of Paul, had not come yet. You insert love in there, and love had not come yet. That's a bit foolish don't you think, especially after Paul just finished writing about it in the first seven verses of that same chapter.
DHK

 

DHK that which is perfect is the other half of the black book?

SURE THAT makes alot of sense.

We know in part we prophesy in part in part in part in part.

Now I KNOW IN PART, *THEN I SHALL KNOW FULLY EVEN AS I AM FULLY KNOWN.

Its SPEAKING OF LOVE. Not a second half of a book. Its Christ in us. FULLY KNOWN BY GOD and us knowing HIM in TRUTH seen by LOVE.

Its not difficult DHK well... if you don't know fully and your still in that which is imperfect and in part yes I can see you not knowing this.

We KNOW IN US FULLY thats why it says a POOR REFLECTION IN A MIRROR but then see FACE TO FACE. Its described elsewhere in AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD as a REFLECTION of the inner mirror FINALLY reflecting in and through us the LOVE OF GOD. FULLY KNOWN. Thats why it keeps saying *KNOWN. Because you cannot say I LOVE GOD and hate your brother your a liar. But He who LOVES is KNOWN.

DHK the whole thing is around Love.

Fear of the Lord is THE BEGINING OF WISDOM BUT *PERFECT LOVE CASTS OUT FEAR.

PERFECT =LOVE=GOD= HIS LOVE=IN US=EXPRESSED=GOAL OF OUR FAITH.

PAULS NOT saying that the perfect had come He sought that for and IN HIMSELF He said he had not attained to it. Your argument doesn't stand.

Phil 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

He's pushing them forward in their faith that he might apprehend it. As John said We shall see Him (our faith in the hope we have) AS HE IS for AS HE IS SO ALSO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. Something to lay HOLD OF.

But we are to ABOUND and to INCREASE and are being MADE PERFECT IN LOVE=GOAL of our FAITH


God Bless

Seth3

[ November 01, 2004, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Seth3 ]

 

When that which is perfect is come, then...

So, Paul and Jesus had no love. According to the verse, "When it is come..." they were still waiting for it. It was still in the future. Hey, maybe we are still in the dark waiting for love to come. Does anybody know what love is, according to Seth?
DHK

 

DHK... what are you talking about????

Love of God BEING made perfect in each one. God works in peoples hearts not all are aware that Christ is Come.

God bless

Seth3

 

The Kind of Gifts

1. Permanent (13:8,13)
Love never fails; it alone endures forever.

1John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Love is the one permanent gift that will remain forever. Jesus demonstrated His love for us on the cross, that all who should believe on Him might have eternal life. When we get to Heaven, love will still be there. It will never end.

2. Semi-permanent
In verse 13 it tells us, And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Faith hope and love are mentioned. Love is the greatest because it will endure forever. But what about faith and hope.

Faith is confidence in God. The Bible says in 2Cor.5:7, (For we walk by faith, not by sight
1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Someday we will see Christ, then we will no longer need faith.
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The second of these is hope; it is the second semi-permanent gift. It also will cease when we see Christ. We will have no need of it any longer then. Go back to 1John 3:2,3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Our hope is in the coming of Christ.
Rom.8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Hope that is seen is not hope. Our hope is in the coming of Christ, our ultimate salvation.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
When our hope (Jesus Christ) appears, we will no longer have need of hope. Hope will therefore end at the Coming of Christ.

3. Temporary
There are three gifts mentioned in this chapter that are temporary gifts. That is they lasted only for a specific period of time. Look at verse 8 in 1Cor.13,
13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Prophecies shall fail, tongues shall cease, and knowledge shall vanish away. These gifts are all temporary. They will last just for a temporary period of time, and then as it says will fail, cease, and vanish away. They will cease to be no more. These gifts are also representative of the rest of the spiritual gifts that are mentioned in 1Cor.12, but these three are specifically mentioned because of the context, speaking of the Word of God.

Let us consider first the gift of tongues, the most widely misunderstood and misused gift today. There are many reasons why tongues is not for today. The verses in this chapter give us some very good ones. Verse eight says they shall cease. And I believe that the context will show us that they already have ceased. In fact the gift of tongues ceased to be by the end of the first century. Before we look at this Scripture consider some of the characteristics of the Biblical use of tongues:
1. The word tongue means language. (Acts 2; 1Cor.14:4)
The word "unknown" is not in the Greek. The language was a known language, just unknown to the one speaking it.
In Acts 2 there are about fifteen different nations and languages represented, and they all heard the disciples speak, each in their own tongue or language.
2. 1Cor.14:21,22 tells us that tongues are a sign for the unbeliever, specifically the unbelieving Jew.
3. Some of the tongues came from source that was not of God. We briefly looked at that already from 1Cor.12:3
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
The source of some of the tongues was definitely demonic. They were calling Jesus accursed in a different language that they did not know. I have challenged some Charismatics how they knew if their tongues were from God or not. Their only answer was from Luke 11:11-13, that God wouldn't give them an evil gift. But how do you know it is from God, I replied. If you dont know what you are saying, if you have no interpreter, and can't understand anything, how do you know it is from God? I still have no answer to that question from them.
4. The Bible never commands one to speak in tongues. It never suggests that anyone should seek after the gift of tongues. It gives no instruction on how one should speak in tongues. But there are people from Charismatic churches that will give you instructional booklets on how to speak in tongues. That isn't Biblical. What goes on in the name of tongues today is not the gift of tongues of the Bible. That gift has ceased.

If one would take seriously, within context, all of the teaching about tongues in I Corinthians, they could not fail to see that tongues-speaking would cease. Paul writes, "Charity (love) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" (13:8). There will always be the need for love, therefore love will never drop off. But when the canon of Scripture is made "perfect" (or complete), there will be no further revelation from God, neither in predictive prophecy nor in divinely revealed knowledge other than prophecy. The gifts of "prophecy" and "knowledge" will be entirely unnecessary with the completion of the Scriptures. And "if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18).

Paul acknowledged the incomplete nature of the Scriptures in his day when he said, "For we know in part, and we prophecy in part" (13:9), or more literally from the Greek, "For in part we are knowing, and in part we are prophesying." Then he adds, "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (13:10). The word perfect is in the neuter gender, and therefore refers to the perfect (finished or completed) Word of God. If the word perfect referred to Christ it would be in the masculine gender. The sign gifts were "done away" (rendered inoperative) with the completion of the New Testament.

Now what about tongues? "Whether there be tongues, they shall cease" (13:8). Tongues shall cease (Gr. patio), that is, they shall come to a complete halt. Who needs tongues? Only the untaught, carnal babes in Christ, for Paul added, "When I was a child, I spake as a child . . . but when I became a man, I put away childish things" (13:11). The word "spake" in context can only refer to speaking in tongues. So that Paul himself came to the place of Christian maturity, through God's revelation to him, where tongues were no longer necessary. And so in the same tongues context he admonishes the Corinthians, "Brethren, be not children in understanding . . . but in understanding be men" (14:20). Experientially, tongues cease when the Christian matures on a diet of the meat of God's Word. Actually tongues is baby talk.
DHK

 

Everybody in my church understands English!

A need for a "Prayer Language??" God understands my English quiet well, too! Why does we need a "booster" in our prayers?? Is your prayer language some sort of Spiritual Steroid??

 

If that which is perfect means the Bible, which translation is it? Consider carefully what Perfect means, absolutley without any error at all. Thus ruling out all known translations of the Bible today.

Come to think of it, the only thing that I can think of was that is perfect would be Jesus. God Himself. When He returns all Spiritual Gifts will cease as they are no longer needed.

As a side note, I am a student at Bible College, and this year we happened to be studying church history. It is recoreded that Spiritual Gifts were still being used in the Third Century.

 

What Gershom and Rosell have said.

I don't believe that "I'll-have-a-bacardi-and-shandy" and "she-came-on-a-honda" are the tongues referred to in the NT; although 'glossolalia' is used as the NT term, I take it to mean 'xenolalia', as that matches the Acts 2 description of what happened at Pentecost. So, is the 'babbling' Biblical? No. Is it of the Devil? No.Does it do any harm? Probably not. I would neither encourage it or prohibit it at church

Oh, and Ben's right about the endurance of spiritual gifts - it was only with the heresy of Montanism towards the end of the second century that the church began to regard them with suspicion and to discourage their use.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

DHK says..

1. Permanent (13:8,13)
Love never fails; it alone endures forever.

Seth3
NO KIDDING its what I've been trying to say to you.

Love is the perfect GIFT it alone endures forever, Gods love never fails. Through faith worketh Love whoever is born of God LOVES. Gods LOVE is PERFECTED IN US who believe. THAT WHICH IS PERFECT REMAINS. It SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE.

God Bless

Seth3

 

Matt, may I ask what "church" began to regard them with suspicion and to discourage their use?

MEE

 

Depends when you think the Catholic Church began life. Certainly by that time there was a developing hierarchy that began to arrogate the prophetic mission of the church to itself. Quite when the Early (sub-apostolic) Church ended and the RCC/ Eastern Orthodox Church began is a matter for conjecture...what do you think?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Surely you jest. The Old English word "perfect" as well as the Greek word, means complete. By the end of the first century the New Testament had been completed with the writing of the last book, Revelation (ca. 98 A.D.) Thus the New Testament canon was perfected or completed. BTW, all the books were written in Greek.

The word does not mean perfect as in sinless. It means complete. The pronoun in question "that" "that which is to come" is in the neuter gender, and therefore cannot possibly refer to Christ. It must therefore refer to the Word of God, which the context shows that it does. The entire context is speaking of revelatory gifts relating to the Word of God: prophecy and revelatory knowledge in relation to the completed Word of God. Context is everything.

Then provide your sources. I too have studied history, especially concering this subject. I find no historical evidence that tongues ever existed past the first century, except as gibberish in extreme cults.
DHK

 

The WORD is SPIRIT the WORD is CHRIST. THE WORD is IN US. THE WORD REMAINS. THE WORD IS GOD. GOD IS LOVE. GODS LOVE PERFECTED IN US.MADE COMPLETE IN US.

Its not knowing Christ after the FLESH (Gender) anymore its knowing Him after the Spirit as Paul says.

God bless

Seth3