"Saving Faith"

Jude, I read all the comments in this thread, and now make a general statement about saving faith. I take from the writings of Paul the thing that I think is the pinnacle "achievement" of saving faith, if you can call it an "achievement" because in all reality it is a gift of God to those that earnestly seek him.

I speak of Charity, the love that Christ had for others. Until we get that, we are as Paul says, NOTHING. No matter how many good works, no matter how many faithful statements, if we don't have what matters in our hearts, we are nothing.

1 Cor. 13: 1 THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.


Wow! Now that's saving faith: charity. For it appears that without the long suffering, the patience, the humility, not easily provoked, to be able to bear all things, hope all things, believe all things, and endure. DO we do this?

This is the saving faith, because the implication is that if you don't have it YOU ARE NOT SAVED, because as the scripture teaches, it takes more than lip service, more than good works, more than revelations, more than moving mountains, it takes charity.

Got charity? Then you have eternal life, the greatest of the gifts of God. Don't have it, and there is no good in us. As we examine our hearts, see if we are kind, gracious, meek, tolerant, helpful, truly seeking the welfare of others like Jesus did. We can have no envy, no despising, no self-righteousness, no condescending tones, no irritation, none of that, for it does not exist in the person that has charity.

My sermon.

 

rockyman, you are on rocky ground (sorry, I just had to use that) You put forth a standard which is not able to be met, even by Paul. Yes good works will be how we are known and the saved person should display all what you have said, but while we have a new nature we have our same flesh. Flesh which can get us in to trouble, even make us stumble. At those tough moments we may not display all the "good deeds/works/charity" that we should but we are not less saved at those times. Our general character will be of what you have said but it will vary from person to person and from time to time in our Christian walks. The faith does not change even if for moments the outward displaying of our works does change. Yet, as I said we are to let our light shine for that is how the world will be won to Jesus. Hope I cleared my position up a little.

In Christian love,
Brian

 

Well, that's nothing new for me. When I get on rocky ground, I repent of it. Its over quick (hopefully), and I move on.

I am not saying that we have to be perfect 24/7, even though Jesus DID teach that BTW, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect" what I am saying is that it is the goal, the quest, the faithfulness to repent, repent, and keep repenting whenever we sin, so that we can grow. I mean, who hasn't lost their temper, got in a fight, stole something, or whatever? I can say that I do loser my temper LESS as I grow older. I don't fight anyone ANYMORE, and I find myself actually sinning less and less as I grow into this. I'm smiling more, feeling more charitible, giving more, yes, things can change. But instant perfection? Does not exist.

Flesh is really no excuse for the here and now. We can strive for overcoming the flesh, instead of making it our "convenient excuse" for failure to live up to the way of happiness. Sin brings sadness and guilt. Repentance of sin brings joy and peace. When we sin, and we all do, we can get on our knees, make it right with the Lord again, ask for His help to overcome the sin, and make our paths straight. He will forgive us again as we get back on His paths, and help us overcome the world.

1 Jn. 5: 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Heb. 12: 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

So Briguy, I'm not really on rocky ground with this, don't you think that Jesus wants His children to improve, overcome, and practice what they preach? Its not all automatic, as you have personally attested, because there is that nagging flesh to deal with. But Jesus overcame His flesh. I believe His Apostles did too. They all set a great example of a life of service and faith.

[ July 27, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: rockyman ]

 

Hi Rockyman, It seems the gap in our positions is closing with each writing. I think we all strive to do our best for Jesus because we appreciate what He did for us so much. But even still, the flesh is there and we cannot achieve pefection. We all know how Paul said, "I do the things that I don't want to and don't do the things I know I should" (from memory not direct quote). He went on to say that we can't sin just because grace abounds. Paul made it clear it is a lifelong battle and thus my point above. The flesh is a reason that I struggle at times but not an excuse.

Think about Paul and Peter and their argument. That was the flesh. Paul and Barnabas split after a fight about Mark (Maybe it was Paul and Silas - mind blank). That was flesh. Peter denied Jesus, sunk in the water, and was called Satan after a dumb comment. All those were Peter's "flesh".

Again, the flesh is the reason we fail but not an excuse for our failures.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Briguy, Rockyman,

There is a 'tension' between the Assurance we have in the Faithful and True Author and Finisher of Our Salvation...

And, the many warnings the various Apostles passed down to not be weary in well doing, to be careful, not have a sinful unbelieving heart...

That is why I do not believe either 'extreme' view of Calvinism or Armenianism is Biblically valid or balanced...

We can fight all day and night over the fine points...

But, if we take Romans 10:8-10 literally there *is* a requirement for some objectively externally verifiable action on the part of the Believer.

The Greek for 'unto' implies into...

It seems to be most properly rendered as a 'final' arrival.

If this is so then... Salvation is a two part transaction making "Saving Faith" both the Heart Belief *and* the resultant external confession to "arrive at" salvation...

Granted this is only one Scripture and one rendering...

But, if it wasn't generally believed why is this a major point of almost every altar call I have ever seen in both Baptist and Pentecostal churches?

We want people to come forward and publically acknowledge their faith... To Prove It...

As to how important it is to continue to act similarly... We might consider the injunction to test ourselves to see if we be in the Faith or not... 2 Corinthians 13:5 And, Paul was talking to people who are *supposed* to be Christians.

I said earlier

Perhaps this would be more palatable if I had said instead of 'Publically Proven' before God and His Angels...

I had said, Walked out Publically in the Full View of God and His Angels. (Not that anything could be hidden form Him.)

I went on to say

We also have to understand that this 'tension' has been with the church from the times of Paul and James.

And, that if all these decades have passed since without resolution... Aren't we a bit high-minded to think we can resolve it here?

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift-9. not from works, so that no one can boast." HCSB

I think its very simple just faith in Jesus Christ. (See Acts 8:37.)

 

SMM, I guess I don't really see the tension because of the way I see the two ideas fitting together. Paul is clear from the passage that DeclareHim just used that we are saved by faith, not anything we can do. James is clear that works naturally follow real faith. The works are only proof to men though, not God. A changed heart is all God has to see, He doesn't need a "work" to prove anything to Him. Men however, believe little about eachother without seeing things firsthand. The changed heart displays Christian "works" and the lost see a new person and hopefully are drawn to Jesus by what they see. Faith is how we are saved. Our "works are what draw others in to be saved, thus no tension is needed. When James talks about showing his faith by his works he is speaking of showing his works to men, not God.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Jude:

Excellent!

Wish I could have said it that succinctly.

I wonder how many denominations were born due to semantics?

 

Jude, Here are the verses from James in a broader sense, KJV James 2:
[13] For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[16] And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

Jude, This whole section is a lesson in mercy and charity. Doing works is what shows that Jesus indwells us. Abraham did not prove his faith to God by raising up that sword (knife?). He proved it to the on-lookers that were with him and to us(all readers of the scriptures). God knew exactly what Abraham would do, he did not surprize God. If you look at verse 23, which you did not include, it says that Abraham "believed" God and it was that belief in God that was counted as rightousness. You see, Abraham and Rahab and us are not justified to God by what we do, we are justified to Man by what we do. To be justified by definition is to be "proved" worthy. We can't prove anything to God, because he already knows but the world does not know and so we are justified by our works. Jude, I look at this section of scripture in the light of the whole Bible and then it makes sense. As an island it can be deceiving at first glance.

Anyway, whether you believe what I am saying or not you at least have to admit that it is logical, right?

Take care Jude and have a great weekend!!
In Christ,
Brian

 

Alright...

I seem to be missing something here...

Just who is on which side of the debate here?

I think we agree that we can't surprise God, So, that makes using the term 'prove to God' a bit, shall we say, inaccurate?

I think we all agree that some form of works goes with good Christian Character?

Can we focus on exactly what place and where works fit into a Normal Christian Life?

Is any action (work) required to 'seal' or 'finalize' Salvation?

If not, please explain why not, in light of Romans 10:8-10's requirement to both believe and confess...

I think we agree that by works of the law shall no flesh be justified?

I think a fair question is, then, is what place do 'Christian Good Works' take in a believers life.

Are they are requirement? That is can a person properly be considered 'saved' if they have no 'Christian Good Works'...

Another form of 'works' might be 'acts of faith' these are thngs we do where we 'stand on God's Word and do something simply because it's the right thing to do in light of our understanding of God's Words...

I think that 'Acts of Faith' can be properly separated from 'Christian Good Works'...

Though I am not at all clear on how to make the definition at this time. Perhaps the two of you can give me some ideas?

I think Jude may have a point when he uses the term, 'completed' in referring to Abrams actions completing his faith...

Because in my view every covenant has to be properly transacted and recorded...

So, another question is the New Covenant of Salvation by Grace through Faith contigent upon any signatory act of man...

That is does man have to do something to 'sign on the dotted line' as it were...

 

But as I read on in the bible after those life changing experiences Peter had, I do not read of the failures anymore. I read of the growth. He also raised the dead with his faith and Priesthood. Then instead of denying his faith at the face of death, he faced death and hung on a cross. It appears that he "overcame" and did not give in to the fears, the flesh.

This is what I am talking about. The quest to overcome. To be perfect, as Jesus said. I would say that Peter was perfect in his faith at that point that he did such great works, and failed not.

 

Jude, I like to refer to the teachings of Jesus FIRST, like you have just done, because you can't "argue" with Jesus. Paul we may interpret, James we may say its out of context. But Jesus is so simple with his teaching, he was the MASTER, and there is no mistake about his teaching.

He is saying that in the end, the people to whom he gave the talents WILL be held accountable. This implies a punishment. Can "saved" people be punished? I think we can not argue with the Savior. Once saved, not a guarantee, unless we DO SOMETHING with what we have been given. Jesus is saying that we need to double our talents. That shows effort. It actually shows faith. I believe that in fact, doing good works for the right reasons builds our faith and makes us stronger. Doing it for the wrong reasons just fakes other people out about how "Faithful" we are. But how can we argue with the Master on the parable of the talents? He is saying that an increase is what He is looking for. And if we don't perform that increase, then He will take away even what we got and give to another.

 

Eastmans:
Justification - a forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon (q.v.) of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Rom. 5:1-10).
It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Rom. 10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21; Rom. 4:6-8).
The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a "condition," not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Rom. 1:17; 3:25, 26; 4:20, 22; Phil. 3:8-11; Gal. 2:16).


Websters:
Main Entry: jus·ti·fi·ca·tion javascriptopWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?justif04.wav=justification')javascriptopWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?justif04.wav=justification')
Pronunciation: "j&s-t&-f&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the act, process, or state of being justified by God
2 a : the act or an instance of justifying : VINDICATION b : something that justifies
3 : the process or result of justifying lines of text


justification
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

in Christian theology, either (1) the act by which God moves a person from the state of sin (injustice) to the state of grace (justice); (2) the change in a person's condition as he moves from a state of sin to a state of righteousness; or (3) especially in Protestantism, the act of acquittal whereby God gives contrite sinners the status of the righteous.


Jude, I view justification as a one time event, based on the definitions above. For sure this is true in the NT Church but I believe that Abraham came to a time early on when he placed his trust and faith in God. It was the belief that justified him to God. What followed for Abraham was a life lived in faith because of a belief that God set in stone. Abraham’s faith was complete before he raised the knife or else he would not have raised the knife. Can you see that? even from your perspective? The works show the faith and the power of the trust. Abraham would not have been less God’s had he not raised the knife because he was already God’s when he believed. Once we are God’s our failures do not remove us from his hand any more then our works place us in His hand. Once a person is in the Hand of God, as Abraham was and Peter was, they want to, in fact are compelled to service. It is that compelling that James is saying here in the verses we were using. He is saying, “hey pal, you say that you belong to Jesus, but you walk past people in need and you don’t seem to care, what kind of faith is that? Go ahead and think you are saved but for me I am going to show my faith by what I do and then my justification will be obvious”.

Jude, Jesus said that he who drinks of the water He gives will never thirst again – NEVER THIRST AGAIN!! - That sounds like OSAS to me.

In Christian Love,
Brian