Why I do it...

The good thing is that you are proving that these guys were individuals.
All the ones you list were ofcourse bad, but they weren't all bad in the same way.
Only evil popes is not strange in itself because most most popes throughout history have done hairraising (or at least eyebrowraising) things.

The bad thing is that you seem to be trying to prove that they were all bad and that isn't fair.

 

Curtis,

".....except to call me hateful."

oddly enough I did a search (handly little utility) of this board for the word hateful. It occured 4 times on this board (including in your post above. The other three were not on any of your threads. Now that's bearing false witness isn't it. Further your broad brush "they" is rather offensive. If any individual did then you can bring his sin before us but you labeled all Catholics with your post. Seems to me that violates one of them commandment thingy's too.

 

No Catholic has ever said that the Popes don't sin. Quite the contrary. Are the individual circumstances you bring up sins? God knows. Did the Pope's repent when they were. God knows. Do they change my position on infallibility at all. You know. I haven't seen much repenting out of you on these boards for what you have done either. Where does it say repentence has to be done in writing by the way. You guys think it is okay to go in your own little room and do it. In fact many protestants, once they have been saved see no real need to do it because of the heresy that their future sins are forgiven when they say their sinners prayer. Each of the circumstances of the Popes needs to be looked at rigorously to see if they were actually wrong in doing it. I am studying slavery and the popes right now. Urban the Viii may have bought slaves. The fact is that even the Geneva convention today and the US constitution do not forbid all forms of slavery. Namely those captured in war such as those in Guantonemo bay right now and those who are criminals making license place. From what I can tell the Pope may have purchased some Moslem Galley Slaves. These are people who cannot be turned loose or they would be detrimental to the peace of the societies. From what I can tell they were well treated by the Pope. Though the history of them is somewhat obscure.

Blessings

 

"But doesn't the bible tell us that there are no good people ? That we have all sinned, and come short of the glory...."
REALLY!? I HADN'T NOTICED.
Ending sarcasm.

There is a profound difference between the general fallen state of humanity and individual ethical uhmm.. 'qualities'

 

"Actually" it is not that "all the jews" were bad or that "all the Jewish leaders were bad". The problem is that enough of the Jewish leaders had taken "enough" of the Jewish people to the wrong place - "enough time" so that Christ finally said "Behold your house is left unto desolate".

And here is how "He" told the story...

Matt 23 --

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14 ["Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.]
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.'
17 "You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold?
18 "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.'
19 "You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering?
20 "Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it.
21 "And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it.
22 "And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.
24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
26 "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30 and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.


So although there are "Some" who would say "ONLY bad people among the Jews???" and then quote Hebrews 11 showing a small sample of the outstanding Hebrews of history -- but why not try to get passed that to see the point Christ is making?

In the same way the idea of the "wicked popes" that the Catholic church speaks about AND the "Papal infallability" that it ALSO speaks about need to be "brought home" to the conscience of the sleepers. Whether those who sleep be Baptist or "Catholic".

God saw this massive appostacy by a major Christian group and predicted it in Daniel and Revelation.

Curtis has a point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

"Do a search on bigot, see how many times that charge has been insinuated against me. Hateful can be described in a lot of words."

I did a search on bigot and biggot. I found 0 times that it was used against you all the way back to June. Care to try again? Your continuing to bear false witness.

"And slavery....I fail to see it condemned, in scripture. I can assume that it's wrong, but I don't see it written."

I find this interesting but perhaps another thread another time. I will store it for later.

Blessings

 

Dr. Bob,

Are you posting false accusations now? I don't hate Curtis. By the way did he say he was a biggot? "you say you are hated or a bigot. "

 

There are many ways to say...OR mean "Hateful". So your search proves nothing except the term "hateful" has been used 4 times.

 

Some people go to church and come to this board to hear 'warm fuzzies.' The Gospel is often cutting to our hearts/souls, but it is better to know the truth here than to understand it on the other side and hear the words of Jesus saying, 'Depart from me.' Can I get an amen?!

 

You actually spent that much time?

 

I for one am not suprised that humans sin, the Bible is quite voluminous on this topic. I am not at all shocked about sinful popes, who were human anymore than I am about sinful reformers who indulged in even more delights and decadence.

Trying to dig up history and throw dirt all over the church doesn't work for the Catholic nor any intelligent person especially when the dirt slingers have their own mess to deal with. Any person who can condemn a Church because it has committed sin yet defends and justifies all the trappings of the Protestant reformation, including its systematic persecution and murder of Catholics and all those that don't subscribe to anarchy, lacks balance to the intelligent mind. The double standard is confusing to the Catholic and all normal thinking individuals. But this normally doesn't present much of a problem to the Protestant since they are able to be selective in their history and 'flip-flop' on issues. This is one beauty which Protestants glorify is their ability to simply change with the flowing tide of things and if the truth gets in the way of things, then so be it. In fact, the term "Protestant" has come to be simply an historical term which allows Christians with non-Catholic and Protestant idealogies to hijack Protestant beliefs and disown its corrupt history.

No man-made institution could last 2,000 years producing the greatest minds and greatest acts of Christ and charity like the Catholic Church, that's history for you. Protestanism on the other hand divides and fractures everyday showing why it is a system of MEN. In fact, Protestanism is virtually extinct giving way to a new tide of Christianity which will surely follow in the footsteps of its forerunner and predecessor.

 

"You actually spent that much time? "



All of about 10 seconds. Look at the top right of your screen GB.

 

"There are many ways to say...OR mean "Hateful". So your search proves nothing except the term "hateful" has been used 4 times. "

I believe I already went through this but....
Curtis said that the word had been used toward him. The 4 times are not toward him. He then changed the word that he said means hateful to bigot. A search for that word also proves it has not been used against him at least since June on this board. If noone said either of these things then Curtis is bearing false witness because he specifically told me to search for the word bigot. I even checked for it mispelled biggot. Not there for him.
Now if he means that people are oposing what he says, well then it's a big strech to say they are calling him hateful. I think he just feels hated because we don't agree with him. I don't hate Curtis. I feel sorry for him in his blindness but I don't hate him and he has done nothing but thrash my religous beliefs for over a year now. Wonder how you would hold up to the daily thrashing we get here Yelsew? We have lots of history. Some of it not so good because the Catholic Church is made up of humans and Curtis is quite right about the state of man. We are sinners in need of a savior (even after baptism). You guys sluff all the history you have away. You grab on to what is good (Martin Luther he da man) and then say "oh well Calvin's approving of the execution of Servetus has nothing to do with me".

Blessings though. Love ya Yelsew. You too Curtis.