The Journey Home

The thing that is hard, is the burden of proof on your part, to actually SHOW from Scripture that it is actually REQUIRED by believers to 'see' God in a 'triune' nature.

I find it humorous that you actually believe that you have it all figured out.

Your judgments have no bearing on my beliefs, nor on my salvific state. Your 'knowledge' of God has no bearing on who God actually is.

The Bible is clear that there is One God. What the Bible is NOT clear on is that within that One God, there is three persons.

The burden of proof is on you.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly, if God isn't triune, then is Jesus God?

 

3AngelsMom wrote:

The Bible says:

And for your record, 3AngelsMom, you can find this in your Bible, in the book of 1 John, chapter 5, verses 6 and 7.

There's your proof...Biblically even....what more do you want?

 

[sarcastic voice begins]
*She wants God to appear in a cloud and strike her with lightening Monty Python style.*[/sarcastic voice ends]

But then again, I think that is what most of us wish for sometimes- that type of burden of proof- beyond any and all doubt.

 

I am descended from a long line of people who were persecuted by the Catholic Church, and by the churches that sprang from the magesterial reformation--the stories came down through the family, and they agree with the official histories. A perusal of the massive "Martyr's Mirror", the 1,141 page history of the martyrdoms of the Free Churches (who did not fight back, and who never perpetrated persecution), will show why "the church", cannot be either infallible or holy. Only in the churches, the local free assemblies of orthodox believers, do we find the New Testament form.

 

The Bible says:

And for your record, 3AngelsMom, you can find this in your Bible, in the book of 1 John, chapter 5, verses 6 and 7.

There's your proof...Biblically even....what more do you want? </font>[/QUOTE]The statement 'They are one' does not make Jesus God with the Father, and the Holy Spirit a separate person of a triune God.

I am married. My husband and I are 'one flesh', that does not mean that we, as a couple, are one man.

God is ONE person. The Father, Yahweh, Almighty God. Jesus is His Son, Yeshua, the Christ, the promised Messiah, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the Judge of all men. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Jesus.

There is only ONE head in the Godhead. Not three.

Those verses tell me that in heaven, there is the Father, at His right hand is His Son, Jesus, and that their Spirit is how we 'recieve' them.

Jesus is not 'equal' to God, nor is He God.

He is diety, because He is the express image of God, the image of the Invisible God, the only begotten Son of God, but He, Himself, is not God.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly:

Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, " My Lord and my God! " John 20:27-28

Jesus Christ is my Lord and my God.

God Bless

 

Kelly,

You wrote, "Jesus is not 'equal' to God, nor is He God."

Okay, so basically, you've denied the two central Christian mysteries: the Trinity and the Incarnation. This would make you a neo-Arian.

The Bible is clear that Jesus is God. In John's Gospel Prologue, we read that "the Word was God".

You say "nor is He God", but the Bible says "the Word was God".

It's pointless to try to explain the simple, clear, plain, full meaning of this verse away by saying, "Oh, but it doesn't say 'the God'!" because God is referred to many times without the definite article "the" (Gk. ho). For example, you may reference the following verses:

Mt 5:9, 6:24
Lk 1:35, 2:40
Jn 1:6.12.13.18
Rom 1:7.17.18
Tit 1:1

You've lost the faith that the early Church proclaimed loud and wide:

"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).

"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

Yes, this is the same bishop who gave his life as a martyr in the Roman Colisseum that tells us to worship on Sunday, not Saturday:

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

The interesting fact is that John learned at the feet of St. John the Apostle.

Now, whose interpretation is more sure? The disciple of the guy who actually wrote the document being interpreted.. or.. a sect 20 centuries removed?

If Jesus Christ isn't God, then he must be created, and you are putting your faith and trust in a mere creature, Kelly.. exalted, yet still a mere creature. The highest creature in the order of creation is vastly separated from the infinite being of God.. infinitely more separated than a grain of sand from a human person.

[ July 03, 2003, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

The Apostle is declaring that Jesus Christ is The Eternal Word – 1:1a, 1:2b—“…"That which was from the beginning,… concerning the Word of life;…2… that eternal life which was with the Father…”

a. Language

1 the verb is in the imperfect tense—refers to continuous existence in a time before the time indicated
2 But the time indicated is “from the beginning,”
3 This, of course, means that the subject of this sentence is an eternal person or thing, with continuous existence before the beginning.

b. The Beginning: “That which was from the beginning…”

“…in the beginning, was the Word…” John 1:1
Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
Rev 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

1 Christ has always been
2 He had no beginning, there was never a time or any space before time when Christ was not.
3 He was not made, created, or generated—He always was and always shall be.

c. There are two very significant words here: “beginning” and “was.” In the beginning WAS the Word…He already was! Was—h#n –in the original, the verb indicates continual existence in the past, NOT AN ORIGIN, BUT A CONTINUAL PAST!

1 What was before the beginning? Eternal glory, and nothing else! John 17:5, 24
2 Contrast—

a John came into being eg&lt;eneto—John 1:6
b The Word became flesh eg&lt;eneto—Jesus always was, but He took on our flesh
c John 8:58—Abraham came into being genesqai but I AM—eimi, shows continuous existence

d. Jesus Christ is an Eternal Being—no beginning, no end.
He is Eternal—“…in the beginning, the Word already was….” Micah 5:2, Rev 22:13

e. In the beginning, the Word already was—He did not come to be in the beginning, He did not begin at the beginning, He was already.

f. Exo 3:14-15 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

g. Thus it makes more sense when we read later that Jesus calls Himself the I AM, for He is self-existent, He had no beginning, He has no end.

h. He is a Separate Person From the Father, Yet One With Him. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..” 2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 There are in our day heretics who try to make Christ and the Father to be the same person with a different mask—but Christ and His Father are separate persons.
2 He was “face to face with” God
3 He was “with God,” that was His natural state.

i. Jesus Christ Is God—John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

1 He is not “a” God, He is The God— John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
2 He is not “god in the sense that all men are divine”—He is God.
3 He is not “a man in whom God came to dwell”—He is God.
4 He is not “the son of God only”—He is God
5 He is not a man who became God—He IS God
6 Christ is the eternal God, very God of very God, one with the Father and Spirit, yet distinct in His personality.
7 If you examine the pages of scripture, you will find: He is called God.
a He is called God by men— John 20:28
b He is called God by the Father—Heb 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."
c He accepts worship from men and angels
d He does the works of God
i Creation—John 1:3
ii Preservation of the universe— Col 1:17
iii The forgiveness of sins –Mat 9:2
iv The giving of eternal life – John 5:24
v He demonstrated His power over nature, over disease, demon powers, even over death—Matt. chapter 8
vi He possesses divine attributes.
i Self existence –John 8:58
ii Eternity see above
iii Omniscience –John 1:45-47
iv Omnipresence – Mat 18:18-20
v Immutability –Heb 13:8
vi Omnipotence –Mat 28:18

vii He claims to be Jehovah God—John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

 

I forgot to mention, but the previous post was an excerpt from my notes on 1 John.

 

Kathryn,

ONE verse, says 5 words....'My Lord and My God'

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

You have staken your claim on Christ being God, based on Thomas's statement.

But even John, after giving account of this conversation tells us who Jesus is.

There is another place where Christ is identified by one of His disciples, and you should notice the response given by Christ:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

SO we see John telling us that He is the Son of God, and then when Peter told Him that He was the Son of God, His response was totally and completely confirming for us that not only was He RIGHT, but that it was not of HIMSELF that He carried this knowledge.

One more?

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jo 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

v.12. How many people do you think saw Jesus in His lifetime? We know for sure His Mom saw Him, and most likely His brothers. We know the disciples saw Him, so if He is GOD, then John is a liar and we need to throw all his writings away.

v13. He gives us His OWN Spirit. It is not a separate Spirit, or a third person of the Godhead, it is LITERALLY His OWN Spirit. God's own Spirit, that unifies God and Jesus, also unifies us with Christ, and we are therefore IN Christ, and by Christ, in God.

v.14. John makes it really clear here that Jesus is not God. Referring to his statement, just a few WORDS ago, no man has seen God, John then tells us that 'HE SAW' that Jesus CAME!

v.15. And finally, just one of the Biblical inaccuracies of the Athanasian Creed confirmed here, that Salvation is NOT confirmed by one's adherence to the CC, nor a belief in a trinity, but rather by CONFESSING that Jesus is the Son of God.

Jesus is my Lord, and He has revealed to me the True God.

1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

He and I have the same God.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

The verses that call Jesus the Son of God do not militate against Him also being God the Son. They rather prove it, since in Jewish usage, a man and His adult Son were considered equal.

John 5:17-18 "But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God."


Here are a few verses to ponder: there are more.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 8:58 "Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.""

John 12:37-41 "But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."

Said by Isaiah during a vision of Jehovah!


John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"" literally, "of me THE LORD, and of me, THE GOD.

Rom 9:5 "of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen."

Phil 2:5-6 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,"

form = morphe, that is an inward reality that is outwardly manifested. i.e., Jesus was "in very nature" God.

Heb 1:8 "But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom."

God the Father calls the Son "God."

 

Whatever, you're neo-pagan, I'm neo-arian, you need your labels, OBVIOUSLY.
I am denying two false doctrines. The trinity is a load of funk, and your incarnation is right there along with it. God sent His Son, is what the Bible says, but the 'mysteries' claim that 'God the Son' was incarnated in flesh. Show me THAT in the Bible!

If the Bible was clear that Jesus is the Most High God, there wouldn't be hundreds of thousands of Christians worldwide believing that He is not the Most High God. Surely, if the Bible was CLEAR, we would all agree.

Yes WAS. Key word there. In the BEGINNING, Jesus was still IN GOD, meaning He had not yet PROCEEDED FORTH from God, therefore He, being IN God, WAS God. SO CLEAR!

I said IS. It says WAS. I am not contradicting it.

I wasn't going to.

And Praise God for it! Thank you SO much for showing me Carson, that the Church I belonged to was still connected to her mother. Because of you, and your words, I studied the Bible harder than I ever have before, and found you, and your church to be wrong, and mine, at the time, as well!

Thanks.

Yeah, and just think, Judas sat at the feet of Jesus. hmmm

I'm not really sure what you are referring to. I don't belong to a sect. I learned these truths through the guidance of the Spirit of God, by reading the Bible.

Wrong. He is who the Bible says that He is. Why are you limiting God? God said that He has a SON. His name is Yeshua, and God SENT HIM to us. WHY is that so hard to believe? Why must you exalt Him higher than where God has placed Him?

I am putting my trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. He is not a mere 'creature'. He proceeded forth from GOD. Jesus is the ONLY person that has done that.

Wow, how poetic. Jesus is the Firstborn of all Creation. You want to deny that, that is your business, and He is seated at the right hand of God.

Yeshua, Son of Yahweh.

Simple. Clear. Truth.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Major B,

Have you ever given any thought to the identity of the Angel of the Lord, who visited the OT Saints? AKA Michael?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

Kelly:

No, I have staken my claim on Jesus Christ’s confirmation of Thomas’ confession of faith in Jesus Christ being God:

Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:27-28

Jesus Christ confirmed Thomas calling Him “My Lord and my God”. Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed. Believe what? That Jesus Christ is “my Lord and my God”. They are just five little words...that can not be ignored because they are just five little words. Five little words are are important when they are the words of God.

God Bless

[ July 03, 2003, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

The Angel of Jehovah (who is NOT Michael, who is never called Michael, and Michael is never called THE Angel of Jehovah) often appeared in the OT, and was obviously a visible manifestation of Jehovah God, in the Person of the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.

There were lots of instances, but two come to mind quickly (it's late and I'm old), John 5:13-15 and Zech 3:1-8. The Angel of Jehovah speaks, and suddenly it is obvious that it is Jehovah Himself speaking.

 

The Angel of Jehovah (who is NOT Michael, who is never called Michael, and Michael is never called THE Angel of Jehovah) often appeared in the OT, and was obviously a visible manifestation of Jehovah God, in the Person of the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity.

There were lots of instances, but two come to mind quickly (it's late and I'm old), John 5:13-15 and Zech 3:1-8. The Angel of Jehovah speaks, and suddenly it is obvious that it is Jehovah Himself speaking. </font>[/QUOTE]Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Do you know of an instance where the Angel of the Lord came and they DID NOT see Him?

Who was in the burning bush?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

No, I have staken my claim on Jesus Christ’s confirmation of Thomas’ confession of faith in Jesus Christ being God:

Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." John 20:27-28</font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but that has always sounded like a REBUKE to me! Thomas was doubtful (sinning) and Jesus had to show Himself to Him, holes and all before he believed! Jesus was clearly not pleased with Thomas's behavior because He called EVERYONE ELSE blessed! I'm sorry, just because there are words WRITTEN in the Bible, does not mean that they can be taken as a doctrinal truth. Thomas was sinning, and then Jesus said everyone that was NOT like Him (belief on faith alone)was blessed.

Who did Jesus say that He was? Did He say He was God? NO. He said He was the SON of God. John, RIGHT AFTER this account of Thomas's doubt, tells us WHY he wrote all this down. Why? So you would believe that Jesus is God? NOPE. Read it again:
31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

EXACTLY! Jesus Christ revealed to US about Himself that HE is the SON of God. He NEVER SAID that He was GOD. NOT ONCE. I'm going with what God, and Jesus revealed, not a doubting man. God calls Him SON. Jesus said He was the SON. The Bible is CLEAR, Jesus is the SON of God.

Theos. all the bold words are the same word.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
It has more than one meaning. Obviously. Read Psalm 82.
Key point here as well, Jesus identifies Himself AGAIN. He called Himself the SON of God. AGAIN.

God Bless,
Kelly