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"Idolatry" of the Eucharist revisited

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by MikeS, Sep 15, 2003.

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  1. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Not long ago, Bob Ryan posted the following:

    The Faith Explained pg 351
    (A commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II)

    If He would not really be present under those appearances (bread), the worshipers Would be ‘adoring’ a mere piece of bread, AND Would be Guilty of idolatry”

    The point made is that IF you are viewing the RC mass as a non-RC who believes in the Bible - then you must consider that they are practicing idolatry.

    I am inclined to believe them regarding the view that a non-RC "must" have view of their practice.


    Well, I just got hold of this book, and, surprise! surprise!, taken in context I detect a rather different meaning.

    Here's a bit of surrounding text (p.355 in my copy):

    In an attempt to escape the obvious meaning of Christ's words [at the Last Supper], those Protestant divines have resorted to all sorts of unlikely explanations and interpretations; but they leave unanswered the really solid arguments which prove that Jesus said what he meant, and meant what he said.
    ....
    Moreover, since Jesus is God, he knew that as a result of his words this night, untold millions of people would be worshiping him through the centuries under the appearance of bread. If he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshipers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry. Certainly that is not something God himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figures of speech.

    So when Bob then says "The point made is that IF you are viewing the RC mass as a non-RC who believes in the Bible - then you must consider that they are practicing idolatry," what we get is one of the most disingenuous statements imaginable.

    Indeed, that is most certainly not the "point made." The "point made" is that Christ, who knows all, would never speak in a way that would invite idolatry through a sincere and literal reading of his words. The "point made" is that one must engage in "all sorts of unlikely explanations and interpretations" to deny the clear meaning of Christ's words while still claiming to believe in the Bible.

    (Am I getting the quote thing down OK, Bob?)

    All in all, some pretty dishonest and shoddy quoting out of context, if you ask me...
     
    #1 MikeS, Sep 15, 2003
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Thank you for the proper context, Mike.

    The truth does set us free. [​IMG]

    Spending just 15 minutes in front of the blessed Sacrament in prayer each day has been DRASTICALLY helping me to overcome some sinful temptations that were getting the best of me. PRAISE BE TO GOD that He has shared with us this gift of Himself, in His entirety, to be with us, to give us His peace, and to show His love for each of us in a most personal way.
     
    #2 GraceSaves, Sep 15, 2003
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Grace Saves,

    You said, 'Spending just 15 minutes in front of the blessed Sacrament in prayer each
    day has been DRASTICALLY helping me to overcome some sinful
    temptations that were getting the best of me.

    The non-Catholic version: Spending just 15 minutes in front of the Bible, the Word of God, and in prayer for personal deliverance from specific temptations will drastically help you to overcome sinning.

    PRAISE BE TO GOD that He has shared with us this gift of Himself, in His entirety, to be with us, to give us His peace, and to show His love for each of us in a most personal way.

    The non-Catholic version: Praise be to God that He has shared with us His Holy Spirit, our inner Advocate, who defends us against temptation. By receiving Christ we have Him in His entirety and forever because, 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.' His love has drawn us to His Son and His peace within our lives has assured us of His most tender and intimate bonding to our souls.

    The sacrament of Holy Communion reminds us of His death and endless life in which He will intercede for us until we reach glory above. [Hebrews 7:25 & I John 2:1-2]
     
    #3 Ray Berrian, Sep 16, 2003
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    I agree. Unfortunately it is not an isolated instance.

    I find more distressing the combining of "quotes" and editorial without much regard for conventional grammatical sentence structure that would allow the reader to determine where "quotes" end and editorial begins.

    The result is usually an adulterated and misleading "quote".

    In some circles that would be called...

    Well you can fill in the blank.
     
    #4 trying2understand, Sep 16, 2003
  5. dumbox1

    dumbox1 Guest

    um ... The Washington Post?
     
    #5 dumbox1, Sep 16, 2003
  6. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Ray,

    Unless you are implying that Catholics do not have the Word of God or the Holy Spirit, you do not have that much of a point.

    Don't you think that you're rejoicing will be umpteenth-fold when you're in Heaven in the presence of God almighty? Surely you do.

    Well, the Eucharist is THE WORD MADE FLESH. That does not diminish the value of God's Word in the Scriptures, nor the Holy Spirit, in any way, shape, or form. But when Jesus Christ is actually present, in His entirety in the Eucharist, why in the world would I not pay equal worship, or receive that peace which surpasses all human understanding?

    You try to downplay the Eucharist as much as possible, when it was Christ Himself that instituted it and told us to repeat it.

    There is no "Catholic version" and "non-Catholic" version. There is only Jesus Christ, and where He is, I will adore Him. He is in His Word, and His Word Made Flesh. I pay reverance to both.
     
    #6 GraceSaves, Sep 16, 2003
  7. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    I think maybe Ray is caught in the classic Protestant either/or bog. In this case, as in so many others, the Catholic answer is both/and.
     
    #7 MikeS, Sep 16, 2003
  8. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." John 1:14, RSV

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #8 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  9. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." John 1:14, RSV

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal     </font>[/QUOTE]Two, two, two mints in one.

    LESS FILLING! TASTES GREAT! :D
     
    #9 thessalonian, Sep 16, 2003
  10. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father." John 1:14, RSV

    Sorry, but Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal     </font>[/QUOTE]John 6:
    I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever....he who eats me will live because of me.

    The Catechism:
    In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."

    The real, complete gift of the Living Bread is the birthright of every Christian! Why be denied your birthright, your daily bread, the saving and atoning flesh of the Lamb, just because some folks in the 16th century threw out the baby with the bathwater?

    The table is set each day, all across the world. Each day the Great Miracle happens again. Each day heaven and earth are joined anew in the One Sacrifice of the Lamb. As did the manna, each day the Bread of Eternal Life descends from heaven to feed the children of God. All who believe are welcome!
     
    #10 MikeS, Sep 16, 2003
  11. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    That's nice, guys, but Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh. The bread is not the Word made flesh. It may be, according to you, bread made the flesh of Christ, but it is not the Word made flesh. Only Jesus Christ is that. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #11 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  12. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Amen to that! I just don't need a physical piece of bread to mediate that to me. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #12 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  13. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Amen to that! I just don't need a physical piece of bread to mediate that to me. [​IMG]

    In Christ,
    Neal     </font>[/QUOTE]It's not a physical piece of bread, it's Christ. And Christ says that you do need it.

    This brings up an interesting point. Don't any of you deniers of the Real Presence worry about John 6:53-54:
    "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
    He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    I know, you have been taught to rationalize the clear meaning of these words away through bizarre symbolic interpretations, but don't you ever wake up in a cold sweat over those words? Good grief, read the words!
     
    #13 MikeS, Sep 16, 2003
  14. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Huh? It isn't bread after its consecrated. If it is Jesus as we say (and it is) body, blood, soul and divinity, then how can it not be the Word made flesh. Is a part of Christ somehow not the word made flesh. Is Christ divided. Your talking nonsense. Though we agree that the bread is not the Word Made Flesh, the bread is made in to the Word made Flesh. You mix your theology that it is only bread and just a symbol with ours that it is not bread and say that that somehow proves that our it is not the word made flesh. Stop fighting it Neal. Read the words of the Bible and trust them Neal. Stop trying to calcuate whome Christ is with your human mind but submit and believe.

    Blessings
     
    #14 thessalonian, Sep 16, 2003
  15. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Could you please comment on how John 6:63 fits with all this. Your argument is fine and dandy, but let's look at the whole passage. I commented on this in the Roman Apologists thread, but you have yet to respond. I would like to know how you interpret it.

    God Bless,
    Neal
     
    #15 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  16. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    Fine, what are you going on for, then? Why are you fussing? The bread is not the Word made flesh. The only Word made flesh is Jesus Christ. You believe the bread is made Jesus Christ. Okay. But the bread is not the Word made flesh. It is, according to you, the bread made flesh (of the Word).

    Ah, I see. You want me to take a Kierkegaardian leap of faith. [​IMG] Sorry my friend, faith is not blind.

    Also, you might want to work on your charity a bit. Just your condescending attitude towards me puts your position in a very negative light in my mind. Just shut up and believe may work for you, but I am afraid it won't go far with me.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #16 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  17. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Could you please comment on how John 6:63 fits with all this. Your argument is fine and dandy, but let's look at the whole passage. I commented on this in the Roman Apologists thread, but you have yet to respond. I would like to know how you interpret it.

    God Bless,
    Neal     </font>[/QUOTE]Well, we would agree that "the words I have spoken are spirit and life" mean something like "the words I have spoken will guide and instruct you into spirit and life," wouldn't we? So, the command that we must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Christ are part (a very critical part!) of those instructions.

    If you're referring to the part about "the flesh is of no avail" then I think we've clearly argued that this does not and cannot refer to Christ. His flesh did indeed avail much! Would you argue from John 6:63 that the entire Incarnation and Christ's death on the cross was of no avail?
     
    #17 MikeS, Sep 16, 2003
  18. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    No, we wouldn't. [​IMG] I learned this in math class a long time ago when we used to do word problems. "Is" is the same as "equals." The word "are" is plural of "is." So we have this:

    the words Christ spoke = spirit and life

    So what does that mean. The words are spirit and they are life.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #18 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  19. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

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    No, never made such a claim. If you read my post on the other thread, you would have known which part I am referring to.

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
    #19 neal4christ, Sep 16, 2003
  20. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    No, we wouldn't. [​IMG] I learned this in math class a long time ago when we used to do word problems. "Is" is the same as "equals." The word "are" is plural of "is." So we have this:

    the words Christ spoke = spirit and life

    So what does that mean. The words are spirit and they are life.

    In Christ,
    Neal     </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. So just hearing (reading?) the words gives spirit and life? Or they just "are" spirit and life, existing somehow apart from Christ and from us? I don't know what to make of that.

    Why don't you tell me what the words mean to you, and how they refute the Real Presence.

    (And as far as stuff from other threads, I'm easily confused, so best to keep everything together in one thread. [​IMG] )
     
    #20 MikeS, Sep 16, 2003
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