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Tongues as Evidence
- Thread starter Don
- Start date
Instead of editing my post, I will just apologize for the way I sounded. Not really what I said, but how I said it. It was not in prayer, It went on emotion. What I should have done is just respectfully, but vehemently disagree. I have recently had a big fight with somebody I care a lot about over the issue of spiritual gifts. So it is on my mind a lot lately. But it does not excuse my arrogant way of responding. I will remain in prayer, & hope people can see that I sound the way I do sometimes, because I have a genuine concern for my Christian brothers & sisters.
While reading thru Acts again over the past few hours, I have decided that the gift of tongues was not only to spread the Gospel, but also to show the Jews that Christ was who he said he was. It was always Jews who heard the tongues. It was always Jews who were saved after.
Again, to MEE, I do apologize for yelling at you with my fingers, although I am concerned that you might be putting your own personal experiences over God's precious promise. Please, please, please pray about your direction, get Godly counsel, & ask our Lord & savior if this is really the way he wants you to go.
While reading thru Acts again over the past few hours, I have decided that the gift of tongues was not only to spread the Gospel, but also to show the Jews that Christ was who he said he was. It was always Jews who heard the tongues. It was always Jews who were saved after.
Again, to MEE, I do apologize for yelling at you with my fingers, although I am concerned that you might be putting your own personal experiences over God's precious promise. Please, please, please pray about your direction, get Godly counsel, & ask our Lord & savior if this is really the way he wants you to go.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When you are filled with His Spirit one will speak in another tongue. (over flow) This is the evidence that you have been filled with His Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I need the help of some of you pastors here, but is it not true that when you accept Jesus as your personal savior, that you are instantaneously filled with the Holy Spirit?
If this is true, then you can't get anymore; the problem is now how much control you allow Him to have!
Also, this quote is one of the BIG points that Foster mentioned in his book;IE SOME of those who do speak in tongues consider themselves far superior spiritually to the "mute".
Paul downplayed this gift to a very minor place in actual practice.
I Corinthians:
12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues['i], and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?
Verses 12:29-30 puts it in perspective! Like I said in an earlier post, I am undecided as to the validity of "modern" tongues, but these two verses prove that it's not for everybody! If you do, & you're comfortable with it, fine! Just don't judge MY relation with Christ by YOUR experience!
I need the help of some of you pastors here, but is it not true that when you accept Jesus as your personal savior, that you are instantaneously filled with the Holy Spirit?
If this is true, then you can't get anymore; the problem is now how much control you allow Him to have!
Also, this quote is one of the BIG points that Foster mentioned in his book;IE SOME of those who do speak in tongues consider themselves far superior spiritually to the "mute".
Paul downplayed this gift to a very minor place in actual practice.
I Corinthians:
12:10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues['i], and to still another the interpretation of tongues.
12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?
Verses 12:29-30 puts it in perspective! Like I said in an earlier post, I am undecided as to the validity of "modern" tongues, but these two verses prove that it's not for everybody! If you do, & you're comfortable with it, fine! Just don't judge MY relation with Christ by YOUR experience!
I have a Deaf Son he speaks in American Sign Language. For those unfamiliar with this language he talks using his hands. His Sister talks and signs also and she will interpret for you what he says. That is the best illustration I can give you and I suppose its true in any language we do not understand! A language that is some kind of holy language... I personally don't believe exist and is not supported by the scriptures... Brother Glen
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I have a Deaf Son he speaks in American Sign Language. For those unfamiliar with this language he talks using his hands. His Sister talks and signs also and she will interpret for you what he says. That is the best illustration I can give you and I suppose its true in any language we do not understand! A language that is some kind of holy language... I personally don't believe exist and is not supported by the scriptures... Brother Glen <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am sorry to hear that your son is deaf. But let me say this, We have a deaf ministry at our church. There are a few memebers that have come and I know one does not have a voice box.
But it was pretty cool when all of them received the baptisim of the holy ghost, you know why? B/c They all spoke in tongues. So these are people that cant hear, some cant talk but yet they all spoke intongues upon receiving the HOly Ghost.
God bless
I am sorry to hear that your son is deaf. But let me say this, We have a deaf ministry at our church. There are a few memebers that have come and I know one does not have a voice box.
But it was pretty cool when all of them received the baptisim of the holy ghost, you know why? B/c They all spoke in tongues. So these are people that cant hear, some cant talk but yet they all spoke intongues upon receiving the HOly Ghost.
God bless
Don writes:
MEE, I have only one question for you, that I asked before, and which wasn't forthrightly answered: I KNOW that I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, and I KNOW that the Spirit has worked not only on me, but through me. The evidence is the miracles that God's worked in my life, and in the lives of those He's touched through me.
Yet I've never spoken in tongues.
What is your honest opinion of that? And please, don't be afraid to be completely honest; I have no intention of getting upset about the matter, and I promise you--just like God, I take my promises very, very seriously (just ask my kids)--I will not come back with "yeah, well, you stink" or anything like that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well Don, let me answer you the best that I know how.
First, read Acts the eight chapter! I would post it, but it is rather lengthy.
If you have read it, look at these verses!
6) And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8) And there was great joy in that city.
(DON, keep in mind that these were believers! Verse 5) Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.)
Verse 12) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
So you can see that they did believe and were baptized. But........?
Verse 14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might *RECEIVE the HOLY GHOST.*
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon *NONE of THEM:* only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
You say that you have had miracles in your life and I don't doubt you, but so did the people in Acts the eighth chapter. It doesn't make you wrong, as far as you have gone with the Lord, it's just that you need to receive the Holy Ghost the same way that they did in Acts 2:4.
If you will, go back to Acts 2:4 and you will see that the NT Church was born on the Day of Pentecost. When they received the Holy Ghost, they all spoke in tongues, as the evidence that they had received the *PROMISE* of the Spirit.
I know that I received it the same way that they did on that day. I wouldn't want to change it and I could never deny what happened to me. It is a wonderful experience that comes from worshipping the Lord, as they were doing, in the upper room, on the Day of Pentecost.
I'll admit the subject of tongues is a bit hard to understand, but if someone wants to know the Lord will open up their understanding.
Don, I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. You and others have asked, about speaking in tongues, and I've tried to answer. Some have taken me the wrong way. I'm really sorry about that, but it is hard to express one's self on these "puters." Wouldn't you agree?
Now remember, you asked.
MEE (Carol)
MEE, I have only one question for you, that I asked before, and which wasn't forthrightly answered: I KNOW that I've been filled with the Holy Spirit, and I KNOW that the Spirit has worked not only on me, but through me. The evidence is the miracles that God's worked in my life, and in the lives of those He's touched through me.
Yet I've never spoken in tongues.
What is your honest opinion of that? And please, don't be afraid to be completely honest; I have no intention of getting upset about the matter, and I promise you--just like God, I take my promises very, very seriously (just ask my kids)--I will not come back with "yeah, well, you stink" or anything like that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well Don, let me answer you the best that I know how.
First, read Acts the eight chapter! I would post it, but it is rather lengthy.
If you have read it, look at these verses!
6) And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8) And there was great joy in that city.
(DON, keep in mind that these were believers! Verse 5) Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.)
Verse 12) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
So you can see that they did believe and were baptized. But........?
Verse 14) Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might *RECEIVE the HOLY GHOST.*
16) (For as yet he was fallen upon *NONE of THEM:* only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
You say that you have had miracles in your life and I don't doubt you, but so did the people in Acts the eighth chapter. It doesn't make you wrong, as far as you have gone with the Lord, it's just that you need to receive the Holy Ghost the same way that they did in Acts 2:4.
If you will, go back to Acts 2:4 and you will see that the NT Church was born on the Day of Pentecost. When they received the Holy Ghost, they all spoke in tongues, as the evidence that they had received the *PROMISE* of the Spirit.
I know that I received it the same way that they did on that day. I wouldn't want to change it and I could never deny what happened to me. It is a wonderful experience that comes from worshipping the Lord, as they were doing, in the upper room, on the Day of Pentecost.
I'll admit the subject of tongues is a bit hard to understand, but if someone wants to know the Lord will open up their understanding.
Don, I'm not trying to be rude to anyone. You and others have asked, about speaking in tongues, and I've tried to answer. Some have taken me the wrong way. I'm really sorry about that, but it is hard to express one's self on these "puters." Wouldn't you agree?
Now remember, you asked.
MEE (Carol)
Yep, I did, and I also promised you something. I intend to hold to that promise.
So what you're saying is that you fully believe that I'm saved, but that I haven't received the Holy Ghost.
So do you agree that I have a place secured in Heaven?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]
So what you're saying is that you fully believe that I'm saved, but that I haven't received the Holy Ghost.
So do you agree that I have a place secured in Heaven?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Don ]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ONENESS:
I am sorry to hear that your son is deaf. But let me say this, We have a deaf ministry at our church. There are a few memebers that have come and I know one does not have a voice box.
But it was pretty cool when all of them received the baptisim of the holy ghost, you know why? B/c They all spoke in tongues. So these are people that cant hear, some cant talk but yet they all spoke intongues upon receiving the HOly Ghost.
God bless<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So why doesn't someone just use the gift of healing and help them speak all the time and hear too???? Why does the most insignificant gift allow them to speak for a short time with no one understanding what they say?
Does anyone understand what they say? If they are speaking in the tongues of the Bible then someone should!
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
It's plain to see that you do not know anything about speaking in tongues. 1 Cor. 14 is talking about, "The gift of tongues," not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. People do have the tendency of getting the use of the two operations mixed up.MEE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are the one mixing them up. Tongues are a "gift" of the Holy Spirit. Period. There is not a "different" tongue that is the "evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes upon all believers. Not all believers speak in tongues. Period.
We show you scripture to back this up and all you can say is we don't understand. You are right, we do not understand how you can keep denying the Word of God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
I don't think it has been difficult on my part Lorelei. It seems to me that you are the one who hasn't seen the answer.....as of yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because you can't show me in the Word of God. You show me where it says I Will be filled with the Spirit and AMEN I will and AM. But you CAN NOT show me where it says I WILL Speak in tongues if I have the Holy Spirit. I can show you where not everyone will, show me where it contradicts this verse. (1 Corinthians 12) You CAN'T! So who is not "seeing" the answer here? I am SEEING what the Word of God says, you are denying it, adding to it, but not seeing it.
~Lorelei
I am sorry to hear that your son is deaf. But let me say this, We have a deaf ministry at our church. There are a few memebers that have come and I know one does not have a voice box.
But it was pretty cool when all of them received the baptisim of the holy ghost, you know why? B/c They all spoke in tongues. So these are people that cant hear, some cant talk but yet they all spoke intongues upon receiving the HOly Ghost.
God bless<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So why doesn't someone just use the gift of healing and help them speak all the time and hear too???? Why does the most insignificant gift allow them to speak for a short time with no one understanding what they say?
Does anyone understand what they say? If they are speaking in the tongues of the Bible then someone should!
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
It's plain to see that you do not know anything about speaking in tongues. 1 Cor. 14 is talking about, "The gift of tongues," not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. People do have the tendency of getting the use of the two operations mixed up.MEE<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are the one mixing them up. Tongues are a "gift" of the Holy Spirit. Period. There is not a "different" tongue that is the "evidence" of receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes upon all believers. Not all believers speak in tongues. Period.
We show you scripture to back this up and all you can say is we don't understand. You are right, we do not understand how you can keep denying the Word of God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MEE:
I don't think it has been difficult on my part Lorelei. It seems to me that you are the one who hasn't seen the answer.....as of yet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because you can't show me in the Word of God. You show me where it says I Will be filled with the Spirit and AMEN I will and AM. But you CAN NOT show me where it says I WILL Speak in tongues if I have the Holy Spirit. I can show you where not everyone will, show me where it contradicts this verse. (1 Corinthians 12) You CAN'T! So who is not "seeing" the answer here? I am SEEING what the Word of God says, you are denying it, adding to it, but not seeing it.
~Lorelei
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tulpje:
Speaking in toungues was a tool for the apostles to use as they were spreading the Gospel to unknown languages. The toungues they were speakining were, indeed, real languages. The speaking of toungues and other Spiritual gifts ceased with the apostles. After the apostles, there was no longer a need for them.
Studies have shown that the babblings of the toungues spoken in modern churches are not real languages at all. Therefore, the question is: if these babblings are not coming from God, where are they coming from? Satan could very well be using them for confusion in the church. The spontaneous healings are either from the power of prayer or from demons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have heard of such studies for years butall of thenm that I have heard they have been "HEAR SAY" . Who are these supposed experts that know over 6500 languages fluently?
The Apostles were not the only ones that spoke in Tongues, Unless you believe The men of Ephesus (ACTS 19) and Cornelius's household ( ACTS 10) were Apostles.
When did the last Apostle pass away?
In Jack Deeres Book "Surprised By the Power of The Spirit" he says that John was the last Apostle to die. Did everyone that Spoke in tongues get together and ask (since they did not know if he was dead or alive on the Iskle of Patmos) Can We seak in Tongues today?
If tongues cessed then why didn't the Bible warn us that this would happen?
I know some people believe that
I Corinthians 13:8 says so but I have to ask
Has Knowledge ceased??????????? Are Prophecies failing?
The greatest Prophecy to come will now fail.
It will take place when Jesus Returns and takes us at the sound of the Trumpet.
We see through a glass darkly ( whidch means we don't understand everything in this world but When we see Him face to face we will understand from a different perspective.
Speaking in toungues was a tool for the apostles to use as they were spreading the Gospel to unknown languages. The toungues they were speakining were, indeed, real languages. The speaking of toungues and other Spiritual gifts ceased with the apostles. After the apostles, there was no longer a need for them.
Studies have shown that the babblings of the toungues spoken in modern churches are not real languages at all. Therefore, the question is: if these babblings are not coming from God, where are they coming from? Satan could very well be using them for confusion in the church. The spontaneous healings are either from the power of prayer or from demons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have heard of such studies for years butall of thenm that I have heard they have been "HEAR SAY" . Who are these supposed experts that know over 6500 languages fluently?
The Apostles were not the only ones that spoke in Tongues, Unless you believe The men of Ephesus (ACTS 19) and Cornelius's household ( ACTS 10) were Apostles.
When did the last Apostle pass away?
In Jack Deeres Book "Surprised By the Power of The Spirit" he says that John was the last Apostle to die. Did everyone that Spoke in tongues get together and ask (since they did not know if he was dead or alive on the Iskle of Patmos) Can We seak in Tongues today?
If tongues cessed then why didn't the Bible warn us that this would happen?
I know some people believe that
I Corinthians 13:8 says so but I have to ask
Has Knowledge ceased??????????? Are Prophecies failing?
The greatest Prophecy to come will now fail.
It will take place when Jesus Returns and takes us at the sound of the Trumpet.
We see through a glass darkly ( whidch means we don't understand everything in this world but When we see Him face to face we will understand from a different perspective.
So what you're saying is that you fully believe that I'm saved, but that I haven't received the Holy Ghost.
So do you agree that I have a place secured in Heaven?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Don ][/QB][/QUOTE]
OK, keep in mind your promise!
The Bible says, Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, *REPENT* and be *BAPTIZED* every one of you in the *NAME* of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the *HOLY GHOST.*
As you know the Holy Ghost and the Spirt of God are the same. It looks to me as though you have repented. I don't know about whether you have been baptized in the *NAME* of Jesus Christ. But you say that you have never spoken in tongues, as the evidence of receiving the Spirit of God.
OK, Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now IF ANY MAN HAVE *NOT* THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS *NONE* OF HIS.
Don what the Bible is saying is that you need to go a little deeper into the word and receive the Spirit the way they received it in the beginning. Acts 2:4! Then according to the word (Romans 8:9) you will be one of His.
You may not agree, but you did ask and I answered. Still online friends?
MEE
So do you agree that I have a place secured in Heaven?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Don ][/QB][/QUOTE]
OK, keep in mind your promise!
The Bible says, Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, *REPENT* and be *BAPTIZED* every one of you in the *NAME* of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the *HOLY GHOST.*
As you know the Holy Ghost and the Spirt of God are the same. It looks to me as though you have repented. I don't know about whether you have been baptized in the *NAME* of Jesus Christ. But you say that you have never spoken in tongues, as the evidence of receiving the Spirit of God.
OK, Romans 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now IF ANY MAN HAVE *NOT* THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS *NONE* OF HIS.
Don what the Bible is saying is that you need to go a little deeper into the word and receive the Spirit the way they received it in the beginning. Acts 2:4! Then according to the word (Romans 8:9) you will be one of His.
You may not agree, but you did ask and I answered. Still online friends?
MEE
I am new to this board but I am going to jump in here. I don't have any big theological rhetoric to post. I have been a Baptist nearly all my life, (my dad was a Baptist pastor & missionary); but I have also belonged to an Assembly of God church for several years in the past. My brother is presently an AG pastor of a large church (just returning home from the Mission Field as an AG missionary last year.) So I am familiar with both sides of the argument/debate. And what I am going to post here is just my opinion, nothing more, but having experienced my relationship with the Lord in both, shall we say, venues...
I believe the debate over tongues is a moot point. As believers, we are to love each other. I believe the gift of tongues is just that, a gift, not for everyone. Just as God has imparted all the different gifts. Some for some, some for others. Doctrinally speaking, there is very little difference in what Assembly of God and Baptists believe, except for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and I believe receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit as manifested by speaking in tongues, is just that, a gift that will be given if asked for. I Do believe we need to be careful in our criticism of those who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the speaking of tongues. What if Baptists are wrong? Then there is injury to the Body of Christ. And, what if we attribute to Satan that which truly does come from God? Then have we offended God?
The question begs to be asked...what if Baptists who *put down* the Gift of Tongues are wrong?
I think every one of us will be surprised about some of our doctrines, theologies, preconceptions, misbeliefs, and beliefs, etc., when we see Jesus. In the meantime, don't we need to remember to love one another and build up the Body of Christ in these trying times?
Okay, now the truth is out! I am not a true die-hard Baptist. I am a Charismatic Baptist and have never heard of such a denomination, so you can see the quandry!
I believe the debate over tongues is a moot point. As believers, we are to love each other. I believe the gift of tongues is just that, a gift, not for everyone. Just as God has imparted all the different gifts. Some for some, some for others. Doctrinally speaking, there is very little difference in what Assembly of God and Baptists believe, except for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I believe we receive the Holy Spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as our personal Savior and I believe receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit as manifested by speaking in tongues, is just that, a gift that will be given if asked for. I Do believe we need to be careful in our criticism of those who believe in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the speaking of tongues. What if Baptists are wrong? Then there is injury to the Body of Christ. And, what if we attribute to Satan that which truly does come from God? Then have we offended God?
The question begs to be asked...what if Baptists who *put down* the Gift of Tongues are wrong?
I think every one of us will be surprised about some of our doctrines, theologies, preconceptions, misbeliefs, and beliefs, etc., when we see Jesus. In the meantime, don't we need to remember to love one another and build up the Body of Christ in these trying times?
Okay, now the truth is out! I am not a true die-hard Baptist. I am a Charismatic Baptist and have never heard of such a denomination, so you can see the quandry!
You are right. But some of us take offense when we are told we aren't going to be let into heaven because we haven't spoken in tongues.
I can point out ONE VERY SPECIFIC problem that I, and I suspect many others, have with this tongues bit!
Once, while channel surfing on my TV, I came across ROD PARSLEY in the midst of one of his "pace the stage" performances. I was totally captivated because he was sweating profusly, and the congregation (audience?) was going wild with dancing, clapping etc., etc. There were many being "slain in the spirit" and each one brought forth a caucaphony of amens, hallelujahs, & praise Gods from the onlookers.
A certain guy came up for the "annointing" and he was popped on the forehead by Rod, & immediately went down belly-up on the floor. The camera stayed on him for several seconds; then the guy started undulating like a porpoise swimming. After a few seconds of this, he started blabbering some kind of gibberish. The onlookers just about tore the house down at that point.
"Course there was nobody to "interpret", & the guy did not interpret. So there we were, with all this wonderful revelation from (WHO?) and nobody to explain; just the fanatical approval of the crowd.
It's funny, I never thought of this 'till writing this post.
Why did the camera stay on this one guy, while only a cursory pass on all the rest of the "slain & annointed"? You don't think that, just possibly, just maybe, this could have been staged!!??
Nah! I guess I'm just a little too cynical of all these "tongues" that have no interpretation that Paul said should accompany such!
Are "tongues" legitimate? I still do not have an answer that I would bet on. But episodes like the above, and the adament refusal of many of the tongues adherents to accept that it is a gift, and a very minor one at that, that not everone has makes the whole concept questionable to me.
I Cor.
12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
The obvious and expected answer to the above is NO! If we followed some of the tongues advocates, all of us should be apostles, and/or healers,and/or teachers, etc. I think we know that this IS NOT true, do we not?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: just-want-peace ]
Once, while channel surfing on my TV, I came across ROD PARSLEY in the midst of one of his "pace the stage" performances. I was totally captivated because he was sweating profusly, and the congregation (audience?) was going wild with dancing, clapping etc., etc. There were many being "slain in the spirit" and each one brought forth a caucaphony of amens, hallelujahs, & praise Gods from the onlookers.
A certain guy came up for the "annointing" and he was popped on the forehead by Rod, & immediately went down belly-up on the floor. The camera stayed on him for several seconds; then the guy started undulating like a porpoise swimming. After a few seconds of this, he started blabbering some kind of gibberish. The onlookers just about tore the house down at that point.
"Course there was nobody to "interpret", & the guy did not interpret. So there we were, with all this wonderful revelation from (WHO?) and nobody to explain; just the fanatical approval of the crowd.
It's funny, I never thought of this 'till writing this post.
Why did the camera stay on this one guy, while only a cursory pass on all the rest of the "slain & annointed"? You don't think that, just possibly, just maybe, this could have been staged!!??
Nah! I guess I'm just a little too cynical of all these "tongues" that have no interpretation that Paul said should accompany such!
Are "tongues" legitimate? I still do not have an answer that I would bet on. But episodes like the above, and the adament refusal of many of the tongues adherents to accept that it is a gift, and a very minor one at that, that not everone has makes the whole concept questionable to me.
I Cor.
12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
The obvious and expected answer to the above is NO! If we followed some of the tongues advocates, all of us should be apostles, and/or healers,and/or teachers, etc. I think we know that this IS NOT true, do we not?
[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: just-want-peace ]
As I said, MEE, I made you a promise. I haven't given you any reason to believe that I would break it--but I understand your hesitancy. You'll have to take it on faith that I won't break that promise, just as we take it on faith that God won't break His.
Okay: Your reference to Romans 8:9 is completely and utterly wrong.
If you back up a few verses, to verse 1, you find the most interesting statement: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Rearrange the wording--without losing the meaning--and you get the following statement: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit, but not after the flesh."
Then we follow the train of thought down through verse 4, and we see it again: "us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Then we look at verse 6, and see this: "to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
We continue past verse 9, and see in verses 13 and 14: "but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
And then we see in verse 15 "ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
And finally, we see verse 16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
As you can see, NONE of this relates to speaking in tongues. Instead, it supports the things Paul wrote to the church at Galatia in Galatians 5:19-23.
I have cried Abba, Father; the Spirit has born witness with my spirit; I am spiritually minded; the Spirit has led me on many, many occasions; and I continue to walk after the Spirit instead of the flesh.
Can you honestly, truly say that I'm not saved?
MEE, there was only one reason that tongues were spoken in Acts 2: To convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 10: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 19: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present.
Furthermore, I would humbly ask that you consider this: If there were such a thing as an "angelic" tongue, why didn't God use that tongue when He converted Saul? Instead, God specifically used the Hebrew tongue (Acts 26:14)
I would also humbly ask you to take a close look at Acts 21, verses 27-40, and take those verses into relation with 1 Corinthians 14:18. In those 13 verses, we find that Paul is assaulted by Jews, and "saved" by a Roman captain of the guard (we can safely say Roman by looking at verse 32). The captain asks him in verse 37 if he can speak Greek; Paul doesn't answer whether he can or not, but we know for a fact that he can, because he spoke with many Greeks. The captain goes on to indicate that he thought Paul was an Egyptian; it's then almost safe to say that Paul spoke Egyptian. Why is it safe to say these? Because verse 40 specifically states that Paul used the Hebrew tongue to speak to the Jews. This proves that he wasn't speaking to the captain in the Hebrew tongue, and it proves what is said in 1 Corinthians 14:18--Paul spoke many tongues (languages).
All I'm asking is that you please consider this, and let us know whether you agree or disagree.
So two questions for you to answer here: Can you honestly and truthfully say that you don't think I'm saved; and do you agree or disagree with what I presented about Paul speaking in many different languages?
Okay: Your reference to Romans 8:9 is completely and utterly wrong.
If you back up a few verses, to verse 1, you find the most interesting statement: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Rearrange the wording--without losing the meaning--and you get the following statement: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk after the Spirit, but not after the flesh."
Then we follow the train of thought down through verse 4, and we see it again: "us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Then we look at verse 6, and see this: "to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
We continue past verse 9, and see in verses 13 and 14: "but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
And then we see in verse 15 "ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
And finally, we see verse 16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God."
As you can see, NONE of this relates to speaking in tongues. Instead, it supports the things Paul wrote to the church at Galatia in Galatians 5:19-23.
I have cried Abba, Father; the Spirit has born witness with my spirit; I am spiritually minded; the Spirit has led me on many, many occasions; and I continue to walk after the Spirit instead of the flesh.
Can you honestly, truly say that I'm not saved?
MEE, there was only one reason that tongues were spoken in Acts 2: To convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 10: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 19: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present.
Furthermore, I would humbly ask that you consider this: If there were such a thing as an "angelic" tongue, why didn't God use that tongue when He converted Saul? Instead, God specifically used the Hebrew tongue (Acts 26:14)
I would also humbly ask you to take a close look at Acts 21, verses 27-40, and take those verses into relation with 1 Corinthians 14:18. In those 13 verses, we find that Paul is assaulted by Jews, and "saved" by a Roman captain of the guard (we can safely say Roman by looking at verse 32). The captain asks him in verse 37 if he can speak Greek; Paul doesn't answer whether he can or not, but we know for a fact that he can, because he spoke with many Greeks. The captain goes on to indicate that he thought Paul was an Egyptian; it's then almost safe to say that Paul spoke Egyptian. Why is it safe to say these? Because verse 40 specifically states that Paul used the Hebrew tongue to speak to the Jews. This proves that he wasn't speaking to the captain in the Hebrew tongue, and it proves what is said in 1 Corinthians 14:18--Paul spoke many tongues (languages).
All I'm asking is that you please consider this, and let us know whether you agree or disagree.
So two questions for you to answer here: Can you honestly and truthfully say that you don't think I'm saved; and do you agree or disagree with what I presented about Paul speaking in many different languages?
ONENESS,
It appears they closed my topic in the other forum. I was getting basically the same answers anyway. Please feel free to share here any comments that were made that you would like to discuss.
Don,
Thanks for pointing out Acts 21! I will also be awaiting MEE's response.
~Lorelei
It appears they closed my topic in the other forum. I was getting basically the same answers anyway. Please feel free to share here any comments that were made that you would like to discuss.
Don,
Thanks for pointing out Acts 21! I will also be awaiting MEE's response.
~Lorelei
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
It looks like Scott couldn't handle the fact that Lorelie's point of view was more scripturally sound and that they couldn't answer her questions using scripture. I didn't see anything ugly except for the fact that their theological house was sinking in the sand. In the words of Lt. Col. Jessup fro a Few Good Men, "You can't handle the Truth!!!!!"
Joseph Botwinick
In the words of Lt. Col. Jessup fro a Few Good Men, "You can't handle the Truth!!!!!"Joseph Botwinick
From a previous post:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If you can feel Him in your church, just think what would happen if you would let Him into your heart!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sounds pretty mean to me.
RE: Rod Parsley...his messages bless me and inspire me. As in anything, there are always going to be fakes. There will always be fanatics or those who take a simple truth and conform it to whatever their agenda is and go off the deep end.
I have been in a Full Gospel Business Men's meeting filled with believers speaking in tongues, praying, and praising God and seen demons cast out of people before my eyes (you can't fake someone being flipped back and forth on the platform by oppressive forces). I have been in services where there was speaking of tongues and a Word of Knowledge came from the Lord and there was interpretation.
From my experiences, some speaking in tongues is fake. Some healing services are fake. Some may be staged. Some are not. The gift of healing and the gift of speaking in tongues are gifts. Perhaps some believers need the gift of speaking in tongues to draw them closer to the Lord or keep them closer to the Lord. Some, perhaps, do not need that gift, but have other gifts.
But when we get glorified bodies, perhaps we will all speak in an unknown tongue, or perhaps it will be Hebrew.
PS: I have heard of things happening overseas, miracles, etc., that would never be accepted as factual or reality by some Christians in America. Wonderful and marvelous things are happening just in the distribution of the Jesus Film Project, alone, as well as in other areas.
I posted this on the UPC board but it got locked. I did not think that anyone was getting offended. Hey.... I was learning alot. But anyway, here is what I posted before it got locked, so please comment
Lorelei, Don
How have things been going? I know you are very busy Lorelei with your knew kid and all but If i could ask a couple of questions? Its so funny b/c everything that has being said we have almost covered it all but it really helps to listen to everyone eles post here too.
Ok first off, i was curious to hear what your answer was to Ant's Question. Can you tell us the specific place and time when you received the Spirit?" The reason I ask is this.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen! But I followed the instructions in Acts 2:38, but I did not speak in tongues. Was I not good enough? Why didn't I "Get God"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please dont take it as me saying that you dont have God. So try to answer my question without thinking that.
Acts 8:
1. And Saul was * consenting * unto his death. And at that time there was * a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were * all scattered abroad * throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2. And devout men carried * Stephen to his burial, and made * great lamentation over him.
3. As for Saul, he made havock * of the church, entering into * every house, and haling * men and women committed * them to prison.
4. Therefore they that were scattered abroad * went every where * preaching * the word.
5. Then Philip went down * to the city of Samaria, and preached * Christ unto them.
6. And the people with one accord gave heed * unto those things which Philip spake * , hearing * and seeing * the miracles which he did * .
7. For unclean spirits, crying * with loud voice, came out * of many that were possessed * with them: and many taken with palsies * , and that were lame, were healed * .
8. And there was * great joy in that city.
12. But when they believed * Philip preaching * the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized * , both men and women.
13. Then Simon himself believed * also: and when he was baptized * , he continued * with Philip, and wondered * , beholding * the miracles and signs which were done * .
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard * that Samaria had received * the word of God,they sent * unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down * , prayed * for them, that they might receive * the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was * fallen * upon none of them: only they were * baptized * in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. Then laid they * their hands on them, and they received * the Holy Ghost.
Now did these guys do everything that they were supposed to do? Yes they did. You even said that just b/c the bible does not mention that they repented you still understand the fact that they did. So we know they repented. Now just assume for a moment that these people did exactly what Peter told everyone to do on the day of pentecost. It says here that they were baptized, so lets just assume that it was in the Name of Jesus, Just like Peter stated. But you will find that there is still no HOly Ghost. Why is that? Was it b/c they were not good enough? What is the answer? Why did they have to wait for Peter to lay his hands on them? Do you not see that it was a seperate experience? They had to wait on it.
Just curious, where does everyone get the assumption that the Holy Ghost has filled them at the point of Confessing, Repenting, Baptisim living after God, being holy ext?
Now if what you say is true, why was it diffrent for these guys?
Acts 10 and 11 are probably my favorite texts on speaking about salvation. You all know the story so i will not post scripture.
Cornelius was a man of God. He believed in God, feared God, did what he was supposed and everything else that comes along with being a good Christian. Peter and Cornelius both had a vision. Cornelius was told by an angle to go see Peter so Peter could tell him what him and his house hold must do. (Do what?) , So he went on his way. As Cornelius was on his way Peter had a Vision of A sheet with unclean things on it. (The Gentiles) And Peter did not want to do this but finally the Spirit told him to Go and not doubt anything. Finally he understood that Every nation that fears God and does what is right is accepted with God.(Acts 10:35)(Now does that mean they are saved just b/c they are accepted? I would say not b/c God still had more for that house hold to do.) And while Peter was preaching Jesus to them the Holy Ghost fell on them and the Jews were shocked b/c they Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius's house. ANd the Jews knew that b/c they spoke in tongues. (Now I have been sitting here praying about what to say. Is it from God? I dont know but for what it is worth there is prayer behind it. Who knows I may miss the mark by a mile here.)
Now check this out. Yes it was a sign to the jews that the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles, but it was the evidence for the Gentiles That they had received the Holy Ghost.
Now the coolest part About this is when Peter is telling the other apostles what happend. He told them about how he was haveing a vision and three men came and Got him and the Spirit bade him to go doubting nothing and when he got to where he was going Cornelius showed him how he had a vision of an angel which told him to Go see Peter so Peter could tell them what to do. (To do what? The next line lets us know why they were sent to see Peter.) Peter was to tell Cornelius and His House What they Had to do to be saved.
We can assume that He preached the Same Salvation Messege to them as he did on the Day of Pentecost. We know they repented, We know they were baptized in the Name of the Lord, and We know they received the Holy Ghost and Spoke in tongues.
I was really hopeing that I could conclude this right now but I have go to my other job. Hopefully tonight I can show you Where the Jews Interpreted on the day of Pentecost, But their interpretation was not the "Gift of Interpretation" B/c They did not have the holy Ghost. And with out the HOly Ghost there are no gifts.
Did that make since? I am just typeing right now and will try to do a better job at explaining tonight.
God BLess
Brian
Lorelei, Don
How have things been going? I know you are very busy Lorelei with your knew kid and all but If i could ask a couple of questions? Its so funny b/c everything that has being said we have almost covered it all but it really helps to listen to everyone eles post here too.
Ok first off, i was curious to hear what your answer was to Ant's Question. Can you tell us the specific place and time when you received the Spirit?" The reason I ask is this.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amen! But I followed the instructions in Acts 2:38, but I did not speak in tongues. Was I not good enough? Why didn't I "Get God"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please dont take it as me saying that you dont have God. So try to answer my question without thinking that.
Acts 8:
1. And Saul was * consenting * unto his death. And at that time there was * a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were * all scattered abroad * throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.
2. And devout men carried * Stephen to his burial, and made * great lamentation over him.
3. As for Saul, he made havock * of the church, entering into * every house, and haling * men and women committed * them to prison.
4. Therefore they that were scattered abroad * went every where * preaching * the word.
5. Then Philip went down * to the city of Samaria, and preached * Christ unto them.
6. And the people with one accord gave heed * unto those things which Philip spake * , hearing * and seeing * the miracles which he did * .
7. For unclean spirits, crying * with loud voice, came out * of many that were possessed * with them: and many taken with palsies * , and that were lame, were healed * .
8. And there was * great joy in that city.
12. But when they believed * Philip preaching * the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized * , both men and women.
13. Then Simon himself believed * also: and when he was baptized * , he continued * with Philip, and wondered * , beholding * the miracles and signs which were done * .
14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard * that Samaria had received * the word of God,they sent * unto them Peter and John:
15. Who, when they were come down * , prayed * for them, that they might receive * the Holy Ghost:
16. (For as yet he was * fallen * upon none of them: only they were * baptized * in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17. Then laid they * their hands on them, and they received * the Holy Ghost.
Now did these guys do everything that they were supposed to do? Yes they did. You even said that just b/c the bible does not mention that they repented you still understand the fact that they did. So we know they repented. Now just assume for a moment that these people did exactly what Peter told everyone to do on the day of pentecost. It says here that they were baptized, so lets just assume that it was in the Name of Jesus, Just like Peter stated. But you will find that there is still no HOly Ghost. Why is that? Was it b/c they were not good enough? What is the answer? Why did they have to wait for Peter to lay his hands on them? Do you not see that it was a seperate experience? They had to wait on it.
Just curious, where does everyone get the assumption that the Holy Ghost has filled them at the point of Confessing, Repenting, Baptisim living after God, being holy ext?
Now if what you say is true, why was it diffrent for these guys?
Acts 10 and 11 are probably my favorite texts on speaking about salvation. You all know the story so i will not post scripture.
Cornelius was a man of God. He believed in God, feared God, did what he was supposed and everything else that comes along with being a good Christian. Peter and Cornelius both had a vision. Cornelius was told by an angle to go see Peter so Peter could tell him what him and his house hold must do. (Do what?) , So he went on his way. As Cornelius was on his way Peter had a Vision of A sheet with unclean things on it. (The Gentiles) And Peter did not want to do this but finally the Spirit told him to Go and not doubt anything. Finally he understood that Every nation that fears God and does what is right is accepted with God.(Acts 10:35)(Now does that mean they are saved just b/c they are accepted? I would say not b/c God still had more for that house hold to do.) And while Peter was preaching Jesus to them the Holy Ghost fell on them and the Jews were shocked b/c they Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius's house. ANd the Jews knew that b/c they spoke in tongues. (Now I have been sitting here praying about what to say. Is it from God? I dont know but for what it is worth there is prayer behind it. Who knows I may miss the mark by a mile here.)
Now check this out. Yes it was a sign to the jews that the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles, but it was the evidence for the Gentiles That they had received the Holy Ghost.
Now the coolest part About this is when Peter is telling the other apostles what happend. He told them about how he was haveing a vision and three men came and Got him and the Spirit bade him to go doubting nothing and when he got to where he was going Cornelius showed him how he had a vision of an angel which told him to Go see Peter so Peter could tell them what to do. (To do what? The next line lets us know why they were sent to see Peter.) Peter was to tell Cornelius and His House What they Had to do to be saved.
We can assume that He preached the Same Salvation Messege to them as he did on the Day of Pentecost. We know they repented, We know they were baptized in the Name of the Lord, and We know they received the Holy Ghost and Spoke in tongues.
I was really hopeing that I could conclude this right now but I have go to my other job. Hopefully tonight I can show you Where the Jews Interpreted on the day of Pentecost, But their interpretation was not the "Gift of Interpretation" B/c They did not have the holy Ghost. And with out the HOly Ghost there are no gifts.
Did that make since? I am just typeing right now and will try to do a better job at explaining tonight.
God BLess
Brian
Lorelei and I discussed this through private message, and decided that there was no sense in revisiting the topic on the other board. However, they did ask, and it was a question I didn't get to answer, so I will go back for one post (and one only) and answer Ant's question.
Yes, Oneness, there is a specific point in time when I know that God entered me, and renewed me in a way that only born-again believers know of. The utter joy, the utter newness of everything, the utter realization of what had happened to me--yes, Brian, there was a specific point in time when I know that the Holy Spirit entered me.
But no, I did not speak in tongues.
Yes, Oneness, there is a specific point in time when I know that God entered me, and renewed me in a way that only born-again believers know of. The utter joy, the utter newness of everything, the utter realization of what had happened to me--yes, Brian, there was a specific point in time when I know that the Holy Spirit entered me.
But no, I did not speak in tongues.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
MEE, there was only one reason that tongues were spoken in Acts 2: To convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 10: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 19: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present.
So two questions for you to answer here: Can you honestly and truthfully say that you don't think I'm saved; and do you agree or disagree with what I presented about Paul speaking in many different languages?[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don, Acts 2, 10, & 19 was, in each case, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Acts 19 was the first time that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the *GENTILES.* It was a surprise to the Jews that was with Paul because God had also given His Spirit to the *GENTILES.* As you know, the Jews and tthe Gentiles didn't associate with each other very well.
As far as what I think about you being saved....well Don, I think I would put you in the same place as Cornelius. Acts 10:2) A devout man, and one tha feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
What I'm saying is (and for all of you that think that I sound mean
I'm really not) that I think that you are at a repented stage and need the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, as well as all of God's people. Believe me Don I'm not as rude and ugly as some have made me out to be.
You asked what I thought and all I have done is answer you. See I'm a very happy person.
MEE
MEE, there was only one reason that tongues were spoken in Acts 2: To convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 10: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present. There was only one reason tongues were spoken in Acts 19: to convict and convince the unbelieving Jews who were present.
So two questions for you to answer here: Can you honestly and truthfully say that you don't think I'm saved; and do you agree or disagree with what I presented about Paul speaking in many different languages?[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don, Acts 2, 10, & 19 was, in each case, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. Acts 19 was the first time that the gift of the Holy Ghost was poured out on the *GENTILES.* It was a surprise to the Jews that was with Paul because God had also given His Spirit to the *GENTILES.* As you know, the Jews and tthe Gentiles didn't associate with each other very well.
As far as what I think about you being saved....well Don, I think I would put you in the same place as Cornelius. Acts 10:2) A devout man, and one tha feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
What I'm saying is (and for all of you that think that I sound mean
You asked what I thought and all I have done is answer you. See I'm a very happy person.
MEE