Salvation!!!

Ah Brian,

Tell us what you think first.



I think I expounded on this one in the tongues thread. It think I'll just paste it in here, for the sake of adding it to this discussion, where it belongs.

My response to your question:

Are works of the law, and/or obedience to the law a salvation issue?

Let the Bible answer that question....

Romans 3:1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) [if we break the law, and God punishes us, does that make God unrighteous?]--->
6. God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? [and he answers his own question]
7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? [he makes mention of the 9th commandment]
8. And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. [pointing to the opinion of some, that we don't want to even TRY to be good, because that way GRACE may abound, and you see the outcome]
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes. [ok, he just touched on the first 4 Commandments (lack of fear) and the 9th again, and also the 6th and also the 1st Angels message of Rev 14]
19. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. [who is under the law? EVERY mouth, and the WHOLE world.]
20. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. [NO flesh justified by the doing of the law (what part of the law justified men? Circumcision. (which is what Paul starts out talking about), the point being that by knowing the law, you can know what it is that displeases God, not that the DOING alone can save you, but through it, you know you are a sinner.]
21. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [now, WITHOUT the DOING of the law there is the Righteousness of God MANEFESTED, in GRACE. It was not the doing of the law that saved the pre-Christ believers, it was their FAITH in the workings of the law that saved them. They sacrificed by faith, in the Shadow that is Christ, and God forgave their sins.]
22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [all who believed were given the righteousness of Christ, through the workings of the law.]
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [We all sin, therefore we all need a Savior. We are JUSTIFIED by Christ, it is through FAITH (the law of faith) that we are placed in His Grace]
27. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. [so is there any place for pride here? Can we say that WE achieved grace? NO all of it is of Christ. It was HIM that they were sacrificing to, and it is HIM that payed the final sacrifice. It is by faith in Him, that He will justify us. It is ACCORDING to the LAW of Faith.]
28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [Justified by Christ, without having to sacrifice, and circumcize. (that is what he is talking about when he says DEEDS of the law. This isn't referring to the 10 Commandments. It is referring to WHAT used to justify the Jews. The Shadow. Now that Christ has fulfilled the 'shadow', it is no longer a valid way of justification. Only Christ can justify.]
29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: [Now we see that Grace is for all. It is not limited to those circumcized. (that is how you became 'jewish' if you weren't born Jewish)]
30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [Then he separates the two, the Jews (by clip clip) are justified BY Faith, and it is the non Jew who is justified THROUGH Faith. What's the difference?]
31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
[Those who are justified THROUGH faith ESTABLISH the law. Do you think that is talking about the clip clip and the sacrifice, or something else? Could it be the 'law of faith' in this case, considering he is talking about the non Jew?]

What is the Law of Faith?

Read Galatians 5, and Ephesians 4, Philipians 3, 1 Timothy 6, Hebrews 11, . They sum it up pretty well.

Titus 1:16. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Hebrews 6: 9. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12. That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10: 22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

James 2:8. If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

If I say I have faith in God, and I live in sin, then I have FAILED the Grace of God, and proven myself a liar. If I say I love God, and do not obey His Commandments, I am a liar and the truth is not in me. If I say I have faith, and that it saves me, and then I live contrary to the Bible, I am really only fooling myself, for I am truly lost.

James 1:21. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24. For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Revelation 22: 11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


2 John 2: 5. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11. For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Matthew 16: 24. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


God Bless

[ March 11, 2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

bump

 

If there's something we can DO to be saved, then it's not
a Gift. If we earn it ....it's wages.

Are we saved by grace or wages ?

Believing is what saves us .
Believing is not an action word to me...it's a condition of the heart.

The Holy Spirit guides us AFTER we believe, but believing is always
ahead of any actions to follow and yet if we were to die soon after
we "Believed", ..........we're still saved.

If DOING saves us, then the longer we live and the more works we
do......the better our chance of salvation ??? NO NO NO

That's salvation by Works !

Singer

p.s. 3AM; could you shorten that long post up.
It's too long for me to read.

 

Chalk me up for faith alone.

Like singer said, if we have to do something it is no longer a gift.

 

Since grace is unmerited favor, then it isn't grace if we have to work for it(do anything to be saved). Salvation is by grace, not works.
Someone had to pay for my sin, me or Jesus, and it ain't me.

 

When was your last birthday? Did your wife give you any thing? A GIFT??? Did you slap her in the face?

Believing is not what saves you. THAT is an action word. You CHOOSE to believe. That is a conscious choice that you make usually based on logic and reason.
FAITH is something else entirely.

Now, WHAT in my last post did I say that would make you think that I thought ANYTHING other than that? OF COURSE you must believe FIRST! Believing is the first step. It is not, however, the last.

Just the opposite. You are saved by GOD's Grace, through YOUR faith, the HE gave you upon believing. THAT same faith, will PRODUCE in you good works.

Actually it's not salvation at all, it is just works. Salvation is based on God's Grace. NOT anything you do to get it. NOTE I said get it. Keeping it is a whole other subject.

Absolutely not. You need to read every single one of those verses HotHead.

Don't turn away your ear from hearing God's Word.

God Bless
Spitfire

 

Amended post for Singer.......


"whosoever will"


God Bless


*shortened for the hard hearted and hard headed*

 

(3AM)
Did you slap her in the face?

(Zinger)
Not working from Friday nite at dusk/dark until dusk/dark Saturday nite is
slapping God in the face ? How about daylight savings time...or in the
case of an eclipse....?

(3AM)

In response to : If DOING saves us, then the longer we live and the more
works we do......the better our chance of salvation ??? NO NO NO

Just the opposite. You are saved by GOD's Grace, through YOUR faith,
the HE gave you upon believing. THAT same faith, will PRODUCE in
you good works.

(Zinger)
Right on 3AM....so what's the Beef ?

(3AM)
A ctually it's not salvation at all, it is just works. Salvation is based
on God's Grace. NOT anything you do to get it. NOTE I said get it.
Keeping it is a whole other subject.

(Zinger)
Oh...I wasn't aware that God retracted gifts. Isn't that like a slap
in the face ? Did I spit on the sidewalk..? Drive me Nuts I said. !!!

(3AM)
*shortened for the hard hearted and hard headed*

(Zinger)
Yeah.........they all say that. (Sigh)

 

Actually it is Sundown to Sundown, but that is irrelevant. During daylight savings time the sun still sets! We don't go by the clock. Eclipse? You gotta be kidding me. Have you ever SEEN a solar eclipse? Was it ANYTHING like the SUN SETTING???? Nice try, but uh, NO. You made no point. AND YES, when God gives you GRACE and forgives you for SIN, and you turn around and SIN again and again and again and again and again the same thing over and over and over and over, you are SLAPPING Him in the face! Do you think He APPRECIATES it when we SIN WILFULLY, after He has SHOWN us not only in the Bible but by the conviction of the Holy Spirit that something is a SIN????? I hate to break it to you but if you are sinning wilfully after God has SHOWN you the truth, there is no longer a sacrifice for that sin.

You tell me, you're the one that suggested I believe the opposite!

Do you HONESTLY think that sorcerers and idolaters, fornicators, liars, inventers of evil things, adulterers, murderers, drunks, and revellers are going to inherit the Kingdom of God?????? You are SADLY mistaken.

Why does God save us FROM our sin? Because it brings forth DEATH. If we CONTINUE in that sin, wilfully, day to day, keep on keepin on, with NO intention of even TRYING to quit, is THAT repentance?????

What is the FIRST step to forgiveness? REPENTANCE. That doesn't just mean say you are sorry. That means TURN from sin. If you are STILL sinning in all the same ways that you were before you 'said the whosover will' HOW is that being a NEW Creature? Old things PASSING AWAY. ALL THINGS becoming NEW????

Think about that.

Ok, I am going to try to step down off the soap box without breaking a leg.

God Bless

 

(3AM)
I hate to break it to you but if you are sinning wilfully after
God has SHOWN you the truth, there is no longer a
sacrifice for that sin.
(Singer)
Do you consider your efforts in revealing the Sabbath to me as
"SHOWING me the truth" ?

(3AM)
Just the opposite. You are saved by GOD's Grace, through YOUR
faith, the HE gave you upon believing. THAT same faith, will
PRODUCE in you good works.

*Singer responded with "So what's the Beef".
*3AM responded with "You tell me, you're the one that suggested
I believe the opposite!"
*(Singer). No, dear, you're the one who adds rules, days, stuff to it.
STUFF LOL. THe good works are produced from faith like you said.
THey don't count toward your possible salvation someday.

(3AM)
Do you HONESTLY think that sorcerers and idolaters, fornicators, liars,
inventers of evil things, adulterers, murderers, drunks, and revellers
are going to inherit the Kingdom of God?????? You are SADLY mistaken.

(Singer)
You seem to put me in the catagory with the above for my actions of denying
Saturday worship. Do you really think I'm that bad ?

Keep prayin for me. I like it !

Hugs
Singer

 

I didn't even say anything about the Sabbath! But now that you mention it, I don't need to tell you anything. You have a Bible. You have read the Commandment. I have shown you enough BIBLE (not my opinion) for you to see that the TRUTH is that there IS a Sabbath, and it ain't sunday. This discussion isn't about just the Sabbath Commandment, it is about obedience to God in general, and the willingness, or lack thereof to do it.

I haven't ADDED anything. Do you not believe in the Bible? Do you think that my posting of scripture is offensive? Am I ADDING to what GOD has told us to do, by TELLING you what God has told us to do?

And what are they? What are 'good works'? Being nice to people? Giving that old dirty guy on the corner of 1st and Elm a cheeseburger? What are GOOD WORKS????

DUH. How many times am I going to have to AGREE with you before you QUIT arguing with yourself???? WORKS don't save, Jesus' Grace saves, but YOU must ACT to get the Grace, and you must LIVE to stay in the Grace. It is unmerited favor, which means you didn't deserve it in the first place, but you read those verses that I posted, and you will see that there is FIREY indignation for those who SIN IN SPITE of the Grace of God. SIN because you KNOW God has given you Grace.

I didn't even say anything about SABBATH. But then again, now that YOU bring it up, sin is sin. Wilful disobedience called 'rebellion' by God is the SAME as the sin of witchcraft, so YEAH, I guess you lump yourself in there.

That is your choice not mine.

Examining your heart DAILY to see if there be ANYTHING in you that is displeasing to God, and letting Him SHOW you those things, and then REPENTING and FORSAKING those things is part of having a relationship with God.

Prayer and bible. Read, pray, read, pray. God's will comes that way. Humility of spirit will allow you to be guided by the Holy Spirit. The Sword of the Spirit will 'prick' your heart.

You know, even if you didn't, I wouldn't stop

RIGHT BACK AT YA!

God Bless

 

Didn't I just say that?



I think I did.

God Bless

 

Well.....if Sabbath is important to Salvation, it SHOULD be included
in this thread. Guess it's not

(Oneness)
re: dictionary description of believe'
3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

(Three Angels Mom)
[/bc[/b]. THAT is an action word. You CHOOSE to believe. That is a
conscious choice that you make usually based on logic
and reason. FAITH is something else entirely.[/b]
(Singer)
[/b] WHOOPS
[/b] Somebody's Wrong here !!

The bible says belief and intellectual faith are the SAME THING

3AM says "believing is not what saves you"
The bible says Grace through [our] faith saves us.
The dictionary says faith and belief are the same thing.
So therefore our believing saves us.

Repeat: (3AM) ]Believing is not what saves you

Will SOMEBODY make up their mind.??????????

Love,
Zinger

 

Singer,

So now we are using the dictionary as our only rule of doctrine????

You really DO NOT understand the BIBLE!!!

This totally blows me away, that some one can READ this and not understand that BELIEVING is NOT what saves you:

James 2:17. Even so faith, if it does not have works, is dead, being alone.
18. Yes, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19. You believe that there is one God; and you do well: but the devils also believe, and tremble.
20. But don't you know, you vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Do you see how faith works with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23. And the scripture was fulfilled which said, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

(I simplified that text btw)

You say faith is the SAME thing as simply believing, but I have friends who are agnostic, and they believe that there is SOME kind of 'god'. Are they saved?

Where does FAITH come from? Are you aware that FAITH is not something that is generated by YOU??? That all the way down to the FAITH that you are saved through, it is ALL of God!!

Faith:
Romans 12:1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

Have you ever met someone who has WAY more faith then you? Like, after you leave their presence you feel inspired, and wish that you had as much faith as them? Do you think that YOU can do something about it? I used to think so. I would beat myself up over my lack of faith, until I realized that it was NOT something that I was doing myself. GOD is the one who gives us Faith. THAT is why THIS verse is TRUTH:

Ephesians 2: 8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Did you catch that? Both FAITH and GRACE are the gift. Did you ALSO catch that ALONG with the reminder that it is TOTALLY God, and NONE of you, that God has CREATED US (new birth) in Jesus UNTO good works, because God ORDAINED that we should walk in them???

Believing is not what saves you.

You could pull 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you SHALL be saved' out of the context of the rest of the Bible and support your doctrine, but then what do you do with James? What do you do with the rest of the Bible?

I said it before, I will say it again, believing is the first step. It is the step YOU take, the decision YOU make towards Christ. FAITH is what takes over. It is given by GOD.

How is your faith made perfect? By works.

What saves you? By Grace, THROUGH Faith. What is faith without works? Dead.

So then if your faith is dead, through what can Grace function? Grace works through faith. Faith works by being exercised through 'works'. God gives you faith, that has a purpose. To create a NEW CREATURE that does GOOD WORKS!!!

hmmmmm

God Bless