Dualhunter
New Member
Too bad the baby grows up to be in bondage to guilt and sin.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Baptismal Remission
- Thread starter BeeBee
- Start date
Two points you raised
I said a symbol is not the real thing. And I believe that this is where most of our disagreement comes from.
You said:
Unless if it's a sacrament, which effects what it signifies.
Remission of Sins in “FACT”
Christ’s Death; Matt. 26-28
Christ Procures remission
Remission of sins in “EXPERIENCE”
Thru Faith;Acts 10:43
Faith Recieves remission
Remission of sins in “Ceremony”
Baptism ;Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 11:26
Ceremonies declare remission
Biblical ordinances were NEVER designed to secure the actual thing in which they represented.
“It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins” Heb. 10:4
“Sacrifices, which can never take away sins” Heb. 10:11
Misapplying this truth leads to error of adding something to the work of Christ as in Acts 15:1. Also leads to error of misinterpreting language, which is figurative and not literal as in John 6:53 “except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”
EXAMPLE:
LUKE 5
Christ healed a man of leprosy – “Be thou clean” (5:13)
AFTER the healing, the man was told to make the offering “for thy cleansing.”
This offering was to be “for a TESTIMONY unto them” (5:14)
This is the true NATURE in which such physical ordinances accomplish their purpose – they are visible testimonies to the things in which they stand for.
The Hebrew writer explains that “ordinances” are but “shadows”, “patterns,” and the like but “NEVER” took away sins (Heb. 8,9,10).
So I conclude that “righteousness” comes at the point of faith to the believer as it always has, even Abraham. (Romans 4:3-5)
In Christ,
Bobby C.
[ September 21, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: BeeBee ]
I said a symbol is not the real thing. And I believe that this is where most of our disagreement comes from.
You said:
Unless if it's a sacrament, which effects what it signifies.
Remission of Sins in “FACT”
Christ’s Death; Matt. 26-28
Christ Procures remission
Remission of sins in “EXPERIENCE”
Thru Faith;Acts 10:43
Faith Recieves remission
Remission of sins in “Ceremony”
Baptism ;Acts 2:38; 1 Cor. 11:26
Ceremonies declare remission
Biblical ordinances were NEVER designed to secure the actual thing in which they represented.
“It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins” Heb. 10:4
“Sacrifices, which can never take away sins” Heb. 10:11
Misapplying this truth leads to error of adding something to the work of Christ as in Acts 15:1. Also leads to error of misinterpreting language, which is figurative and not literal as in John 6:53 “except ye eat the flesh of the son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.”
EXAMPLE:
LUKE 5
Christ healed a man of leprosy – “Be thou clean” (5:13)
AFTER the healing, the man was told to make the offering “for thy cleansing.”
This offering was to be “for a TESTIMONY unto them” (5:14)
This is the true NATURE in which such physical ordinances accomplish their purpose – they are visible testimonies to the things in which they stand for.
The Hebrew writer explains that “ordinances” are but “shadows”, “patterns,” and the like but “NEVER” took away sins (Heb. 8,9,10).
So I conclude that “righteousness” comes at the point of faith to the believer as it always has, even Abraham. (Romans 4:3-5)
In Christ,
Bobby C.
[ September 21, 2002, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: BeeBee ]
Carson Weber
<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">
Hi Bobby,
Baptism does not detract nor add to the work of Christ. It appropriates the work of Christ to the believer.
This is why one must believe and be baptized. Baptism is what unites us with Christ's life, passion, death, resurrection, and glorious ascension - as has been the constant unwavering historical position and doctrine of the Catholic Church for ca. 2000 years now.
Faith is that response of the whole person to the revelation of God that justifies one in Christ. As God gave Himself completely in the God-Man Jesus Christ, we are to give ourselves in like manner - so that Him who we were united with in Baptism will be formed in us, justifying and sanctifying us unto eternal life.
This formation of us as sons in the Son is the work of the Holy Spirit who makes the Son of God's Eternal Father our own Father and allows us to cry, "Abba".
God bless,
Carson
[ September 21, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Baptism does not detract nor add to the work of Christ. It appropriates the work of Christ to the believer.
This is why one must believe and be baptized. Baptism is what unites us with Christ's life, passion, death, resurrection, and glorious ascension - as has been the constant unwavering historical position and doctrine of the Catholic Church for ca. 2000 years now.
Faith is that response of the whole person to the revelation of God that justifies one in Christ. As God gave Himself completely in the God-Man Jesus Christ, we are to give ourselves in like manner - so that Him who we were united with in Baptism will be formed in us, justifying and sanctifying us unto eternal life.
This formation of us as sons in the Son is the work of the Holy Spirit who makes the Son of God's Eternal Father our own Father and allows us to cry, "Abba".
God bless,
Carson
[ September 21, 2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
Carson,
Once again thanks for your time and reply. You stated:
Not “faith only” but “faith alone” is the cause.
The one who “believes on Him and is not condemned”(Jn. 3:18)
Not “dead faith”, but faith which is ‘obedience’ to the commandment “That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ” (1 Jn 3:23; Acts 16:31)
Not non-confessing faith of some who do not TRUST in Christ (John 12:42), but faith that is TRUST in the heart, which confesses with the mouth (Romans 10:9,10).
Not faith of devils (James 2:19), but the faith of Paul when he said “ I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision” (Acts 26:19).
Here are just “some” of the blessings promised at the point of faith:
Son of God (John 1:12,13)
Indwelt by God (1 Jn. 4:15; Rom. 8:14-16; 1 Cor. 6:19)
Born of God (1 John 4:7;5:1)
Sin not imputed (Rom. 4:8)
Salvation (Acts 16:31)
Heart Purified (Acts 15:9)
Passed from death to life (John 5:24)
The bible is clear, but some are just as blind and unbelieving about these verses as the Pharisees were about the miracles our Lord. They were wedded to their traditions, they went to establish righteousness by supposedly obeying Gods word.
So I conclude that “righteousness” comes at the point of faith to the believer as it always has, even Abraham. (Romans 4:3-5)
Look forward to the discussion,
In Christ,
Bobby
Some taken from (Bob L. Ross "The Restoration Movement")
[ September 22, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: BeeBee ]
Once again thanks for your time and reply. You stated:
My first objection to this is that it contradicts the teaching of the bible that blessings are promised at the point of obedient faith.
Not “faith only” but “faith alone” is the cause.
The one who “believes on Him and is not condemned”(Jn. 3:18)
Not “dead faith”, but faith which is ‘obedience’ to the commandment “That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ” (1 Jn 3:23; Acts 16:31)
Not non-confessing faith of some who do not TRUST in Christ (John 12:42), but faith that is TRUST in the heart, which confesses with the mouth (Romans 10:9,10).
Not faith of devils (James 2:19), but the faith of Paul when he said “ I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision” (Acts 26:19).
Here are just “some” of the blessings promised at the point of faith:
Son of God (John 1:12,13)
Indwelt by God (1 Jn. 4:15; Rom. 8:14-16; 1 Cor. 6:19)
Born of God (1 John 4:7;5:1)
Sin not imputed (Rom. 4:8)
Salvation (Acts 16:31)
Heart Purified (Acts 15:9)
Passed from death to life (John 5:24)
The bible is clear, but some are just as blind and unbelieving about these verses as the Pharisees were about the miracles our Lord. They were wedded to their traditions, they went to establish righteousness by supposedly obeying Gods word.
So I conclude that “righteousness” comes at the point of faith to the believer as it always has, even Abraham. (Romans 4:3-5)
Look forward to the discussion,
In Christ,
Bobby
Some taken from (Bob L. Ross "The Restoration Movement")
[ September 22, 2002, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: BeeBee ]
Hey all, read as much of this thread as I could and it is pretty much the same old arguments, so I won't offer my opinion on the subject again but I will ask Carson a question I asked on another thread.
If God Baptizes infants (i.e. it is a work of God not men) why does the Baptism mean so little to millions of people. It is safe to assume that over the years millions of Baptized Catholics(infants mainly but probably adults as well) have walked away from the CC and God altogether. Where is God's power if HE can't sustain a person after HE Baptizes them?
I cannot move any farther into a study of the importance of baptism until this question is answered Biblically and honesty. Gracesaves answered on another thread and I appreciated his answering but it was not "good enough", so to speak.
Seeking truth,
Brian
If God Baptizes infants (i.e. it is a work of God not men) why does the Baptism mean so little to millions of people. It is safe to assume that over the years millions of Baptized Catholics(infants mainly but probably adults as well) have walked away from the CC and God altogether. Where is God's power if HE can't sustain a person after HE Baptizes them?
I cannot move any farther into a study of the importance of baptism until this question is answered Biblically and honesty. Gracesaves answered on another thread and I appreciated his answering but it was not "good enough", so to speak.
Seeking truth,
Brian
trying2understand
New Member
"Where is God's power if HE can't sustain a person after HE Baptizes them?"
So no person who was baptized as an adult with a "believers baptism" ever fell away?
If even one did, the same question would apply, wouldn't it?
Maybe you have an incorrect notion concerning the effects and purpose of Baptism.
Ron
Dualhunter
New Member
"Where is God's power if HE can't sustain a person after HE Baptizes them?"
So no person who was baptized as an adult with a "believers baptism" ever fell away?
If even one did, the same question would apply, wouldn't it?
Maybe you have an incorrect notion concerning the effects and purpose of Baptism.
Ron
1. You are carrying over your Catholic presupposition that water baptism changes a person.
2. When dealing with infants which grow up to quite clearly not be new creatures in Christ, we're not talking about falling away, we're talking about never having been in the faith to begin with.
Dualhunter
New Member
How do you know that they never had faith? Maybe they truly did fall away.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm refering primarily to myself and countless others who will admit that they did not become a Christian just because somebody sprinkled some water on their head before they were even self-aware. When your life has truly been fundamentally changed by Christ, falling away is not really an option, you simply cannot deny the change that Christ has brought to your life. It's possible that there might be exceptions but, I don't think it is very likely.
Ron, you said,
"So no person who was baptized as an adult with a "believers baptism" ever fell away?
If even one did, the same question would apply, wouldn't it? """
I answer your question with Yes, many Baptized people who are were "believer Baptized" have walked away from God, or rather were Baptized without being believers. You see, to me there is no power in baptism so without faith Baptism only gets people wet. With faith Baptism gets you wet but it also is a proclamation that you have changed on the inside. Since Baptism (BB) has no power it is no wonder people can walk away after having been baptized.
To the Catholic however that act of Baptism is by God and is an entrance into the NC. That places a lot of "power" in Baptism and so my question remains the same, If God is doing the baptizing why do so many walk away. Could it be that the act itself is insignificant? If the faith of the parent plays a role why is that not effective in millions of cases either?
I ask this sincerely, not to down grade Catholics or the Catholic Church. (I fear asking tough questions sometimes because many times people get upset and it ruins the tone of the thread)
Ron, Dual made the point much like mine. Thanks Dual
In Love and Truth,
Brian
"So no person who was baptized as an adult with a "believers baptism" ever fell away?
If even one did, the same question would apply, wouldn't it? """
I answer your question with Yes, many Baptized people who are were "believer Baptized" have walked away from God, or rather were Baptized without being believers. You see, to me there is no power in baptism so without faith Baptism only gets people wet. With faith Baptism gets you wet but it also is a proclamation that you have changed on the inside. Since Baptism (BB) has no power it is no wonder people can walk away after having been baptized.
To the Catholic however that act of Baptism is by God and is an entrance into the NC. That places a lot of "power" in Baptism and so my question remains the same, If God is doing the baptizing why do so many walk away. Could it be that the act itself is insignificant? If the faith of the parent plays a role why is that not effective in millions of cases either?
I ask this sincerely, not to down grade Catholics or the Catholic Church. (I fear asking tough questions sometimes because many times people get upset and it ruins the tone of the thread)
Ron, Dual made the point much like mine. Thanks Dual
In Love and Truth,
Brian
Dualhunter
New Member
The question still remains, how do you know? Your proof seems to be something very subjective. If you are going to base being born again on how you feel then you have based your faith on a feeling and not the promise of God.</font>[/QUOTE]When did I say anything about a feeling?
trying2understand
New Member
Not my presupposition but merely your assumption of my beliefs. It is generally better to ask another what they believe than to tell them.
The question was: "Where is God's power if HE can't sustain a person after HE Baptizes them?"
I was pointing out that the same arguement used here against infant Baptism can be applied to one who receives a believers baptistm as an adult.
How is a believer who falls away "sustained"?
Hi Ron, I guess we are talking by eachother again.
What Dual and I are saying is that the "Proof" of saving faith is that the person "finishes the race" A true believer can take his eyes off of God for a season but will be convicted and be restored. The person you are saying "falls" away is the hard soil person. He takes in the word with joy but has no root and is never saved to start with. That person, Baptized or not, will fall away just as the Lord Jesus said he would. Baptism for the "believer", the one with saving faith, doesn't have any power at all, it is a proclamation of faith. The amount of people who are Baptized as adults in non mainstream Christian churches who walk away after baptism is almost nothing compared to those people who walk away after being Baptized as infants in mainstream churches.
Dual and I are saying that Baptism is done by men and has no power in and of itself. You are saying that baptism is done by God, and therefore I am concluding that it would have to have power. So does the act of baptism as performed by God, as entrance into the new covenant, have power or not? If it does, why do so many (millions and millions) walk away?
Ron, Carson, Ed, GS, I hope that clarifies what I am asking and frees you to now answer. Thanks much and have a blessed day.
In Christ,
Brian
What Dual and I are saying is that the "Proof" of saving faith is that the person "finishes the race" A true believer can take his eyes off of God for a season but will be convicted and be restored. The person you are saying "falls" away is the hard soil person. He takes in the word with joy but has no root and is never saved to start with. That person, Baptized or not, will fall away just as the Lord Jesus said he would. Baptism for the "believer", the one with saving faith, doesn't have any power at all, it is a proclamation of faith. The amount of people who are Baptized as adults in non mainstream Christian churches who walk away after baptism is almost nothing compared to those people who walk away after being Baptized as infants in mainstream churches.
Dual and I are saying that Baptism is done by men and has no power in and of itself. You are saying that baptism is done by God, and therefore I am concluding that it would have to have power. So does the act of baptism as performed by God, as entrance into the new covenant, have power or not? If it does, why do so many (millions and millions) walk away?
Ron, Carson, Ed, GS, I hope that clarifies what I am asking and frees you to now answer. Thanks much and have a blessed day.
In Christ,
Brian
Hi (Sir) Ed, Long time since I 've seen you around. We kind of are discussing the election vs. free will on a different thread. I think it has Catholics in the title of the thread but my memory is eluding me at the moment. Either way it is a confusing issue and there are good arguments from both camps. There is lots of material around on the subject.
Since you said "Free Will". How does that work when you Lutheran's and Catholics (and others) believe that baptism is the entrance into the new covenant and a baby does not choose to be baptized. The infant being baptized has no "free will", they are entered into the new covenant whether they like it or not.
In Love and Truth
Brian
[ September 25, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]
Since you said "Free Will". How does that work when you Lutheran's and Catholics (and others) believe that baptism is the entrance into the new covenant and a baby does not choose to be baptized. The infant being baptized has no "free will", they are entered into the new covenant whether they like it or not.
In Love and Truth
Brian
[ September 25, 2002, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]
ED, before you wrote:
""Briguy, you act as though being Baptized (in the catholic context) or making a "decision for Jesus" in the Baptist context takes away a person's free will. It doesn't.
That is what makes us human. ""
Usually a question has a question mark
What exactly was the question, you know me, I will give you answer whether I know what I am talking about or not
OK, If God Baptizes then answer my question from before. Why do so many walk away from a faith you say God Baptized them into? and when you finish that one, answer the question from my last post. Looking forward to your replies.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
In our God,
Brian
[ September 25, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]
""Briguy, you act as though being Baptized (in the catholic context) or making a "decision for Jesus" in the Baptist context takes away a person's free will. It doesn't.
That is what makes us human. ""
Usually a question has a question mark
What exactly was the question, you know me, I will give you answer whether I know what I am talking about or not
OK, If God Baptizes then answer my question from before. Why do so many walk away from a faith you say God Baptized them into? and when you finish that one, answer the question from my last post. Looking forward to your replies.
In Love and Truth,
Brian
In our God,
Brian
[ September 25, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]