Baptismal Remission

Chem, It sounds to me like you are saying there is no power in the Baptism even though God is doing the baptizing. I agree baptism has no power.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Actually I am saying there is power in Baptism, just as there is power in the Word.

 

Because of Satan. Because of their human nature.

Faith is a gift that God has elected to use Baptism as one way to give us. We can always decide to give it back. The beauty is though that it is always there for us.

[ September 25, 2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

Because of Satan. Because of their human nature.

Faith is a gift that God has elected to use Baptism as one way to give us. We can always decide to give it back. The beauty is though that it is always there for us.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps a different question needs to be asked:

Why do people who are supposedly new creatures in Christ because they were baptized, show no sign of actually having been changed (ie. have become new and are therefore no longer the same as the old)?

 

Because they are still sinners.

 

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

 

Chem, that is a nice try but you are missing the point. Paul desired with his whole heart to serve God. He wrote 2/3 of the NT, he healed people, raised a person from the dead, preached the gospel whenever and wherever he could. Yes, he shared his heart in those verses because he still did deeds and had thoughts that were ungodly amongst all the good he was doing.
Dual and I are talking about those baptized people (by the millions) who do no "good" for God at all. They have no desire to know him and go throughout there lives without barely giving God a thought. Some may be Sunday "christians" who go to church but get drunk and curse at football games all Sunday afternoon. Why are these folks that I am talking about not changed by a baptism that YOU say is from the very hands of GOD HIMSELF.

Christians sin everyday, I know I do. Still, I want to please God and know him better. Being a Christian is not about being perfect, Paul makes that clear but being a Christian does produce a desire to grow in Love and knowledge of God and to serve him, even though our sins will continue.

Ed and Chem, I am not trying to keep beating a dead horse I just honestly have not seen a good answer to my question yet.

In Christian Love,
Brian

 

My opinion:

Baptism is something that, biblically, accompanies your conversion, and unites you with Christ in His death and resurrection, thus guaranteing yor own.

But just as faith/conversion is assumed in the NT to lead to baptism, so baptism in the NT assumes faith/conversion for its validity.

So all those who were baptised without being converted first got wet. And that's all. Without faith baptism is just bath-ism.

 

So you are going to judge the validity of baptism of all who are baptized as infants because of those who rejected the Gospel. That would be like me rejecting the altar call or the deciding for Christ just because all of those who participated and later walked away. It is just an argument that doesn't stand up in the light of day.

God promised that his word would not come back to him empty but people still walk away from the gospel, so to it is with baptism, where he promised to join us to him. If you are going to deny the promise and power in baptism then ultimately you are going to have to reject the power and promise in God's word because the two are closely inter-related.

 

The thing is though, people will be baptized as an infant and not even know what the Gospel is, let alone reject it.

 

Dual, that is why Baptism is only one part of our journey as Christians.

 

Problem is, having a bit of water sprinkled on your head as an infant does not start you on any journey.

 

Problem is, according to the Bible, God disagrees with you on that one.

BTW: The catholic understanding of Baptism doesn't call for sprinkling. Its immersion or pouring.

[ September 26, 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

Problem is, according to the Bible, God disagrees with you on that one.

BTW: The catholic understanding of Baptism doesn't call for sprinkling. Its immersion or pouring.</font>[/QUOTE]Give an example of infant baptism in the Bible. Your interpretation is flawed, it is not consistent with reality. God word defines reality and is thus consistent with it. baptism does not produce a new creature in Christ.

38 "He who believes in Me, (56) as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of (57) living water.'"
39 But this He spoke (58) of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for (59) the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet (60) glorified. - John 7:38-39 NASB

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a believer produce a fundamental change in the heart of the believer. A infant that has been baptized does not show any evidence of this.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to (35) the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were (36) sealed in Him with (37) the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is (38) given as a pledge of (39) our inheritance, with a view to the (40) redemption of (41) God's own possession, (42) to the praise of His glory. - Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB

A person receives the Holy Spirit when they have truly believed the Gospel and accepted Christ as Lord and Savior, not when they baptized.

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

New creature, not slightly wet creature.

 

How do you know that faith can't be sparked when an infant is baptized? How do you know the infant already doesn't have faith? Why do you doubt the promise of Rm 6 and 1 Pt 3:21?

 

I don't judge the validity of anyone's baptism. I simply point out what the Bible teaches on the subject, and that is that the validity of baptism is predicated on faith. If there is no faith, the baptism is just a bath. Likewise if there is no faith, answering an alar call is of no value. Nothing happens.

You can try to impose your theology on the text all you want. It won't change anything. Paul's teaching about baptism is participationist, not regenerative.

 

I haven't imposed my theology on anything, I have just taken scripture at face value and believed the promised of God.

 

"I haven't imposed my theology on anything, I have just taken scripture at face value and believed the promised of God."

While I am sure you are sincere in this, based on your posts it canot be said to be accurate.

You take the promise about the word not returning void and try to make tha control other scripturres in their context.

Rom. 6 says nothing about regeneration but participation.

1Peter 3:21 likewise does not teach what you think. Baptism there is a symbol of salvation, not the means.

That kind of "interpretation" is part of the very reason I believe you attempt, however futilely, to override scriture's teaching with your own theology.

Scripture never gives us an instance of an infant being baptised or of baptism preceeding faith.

Again, your entire theology is begging the question and then interpreting texts in light of the begged question. You impose your theology, and then say that you take scripture at face value when in fact you are simply taking a shallow reading becuase it is theologically convenient to do so. An actual exegesis of the contexts does not arrive at your theology.

 

Rm 6 says nothing about our participation in baptism rather it describes God joining us to the death and resurrection of Christ. Or are you trying to say you can do something to earn your salvation? What ever happened to saved by faith?

The Ark and the flood were very real and just like they are both very real God promises to wash away our sins in the waters of baptism.

Please don't tell me that is the best you can do.