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Christ is continually sacrificed?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Living4Him, Apr 23, 2005.

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  1. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    For those who believe "Catholics believe Jesus is still on the cross" or "Catholics continually sacrifice Jesus", let's take a look at the Eucharistic prayers.

    Preface (given by the priest)

    Father, all powerful and ever-living God, we do well to always and everywhere give you praise through your beloved Son, Jesus Christ.
    He is the Word through whom you made the universe, the Savior you sent to redeem us. By the power of the Holy Spirit He took flesh and was born of the Virgin Mary. For our sake he opened His arms on the cross; he put an end to death and revealed the resurrection. In this he fulfilled your will and won for you a holy people. And so we join the angels and saints in proclaiming your glory as we say:

    (Everyone)Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power, God of might, heaven and earth are full of your glory, Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna in the highest.

    (Priest) Lord, you are holy indeed, the fountain of all holiness, Let your Spirit come upon these gifts to make them holy, so that they may become for us the body and blood of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
    Before he was given up to death, a death he freely accepted, he took bread and gave you thanks. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and eat it:this is my body which will be given up for you.
    When supper was ended, he took the cup, again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said: Take this, all of you, and drink from it: this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.

    Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:
    (Everyone) Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

    (Priest) Father, calling to mind the death of your Son endured for our salvation, his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven, and ready to greet him when he comes again, we offer you in thanksgiving this holy and living sacrifice.
    Look with favor on your Church's offering, and see the Victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself. Grant that we, who are nourished by his body and blood, may be filled with the Holy Spirit, and become one body, one spirit in Christ.
    May he make us an everlasting gift to you and enable us to share in the inheritance with your saints, with Mary, the virgin Mother of God; with the apostles, the martyrs, and all your saints on whose constant intercession we rely for help,
    Lord may this sacrifice, which has made our peace with you, advance the peace and salvation of all the world. Strengthen in faith and love your pilgrim Church on earth; your servant Pope Benedict XVI, our bishop Michael, and all the bishops with the clergy and the entire people your Son has gained for you.
    Father, hear the prayers of the family you have gathered before you.
    In mercy and love unite all your children wherever they may be.
    Welcome into your kingdom our departed brothers and sisters, and all who have left this world in your friendship.
    We hope to enjoy forever the vision of your glory, through Christ our Lord, from whom all good things come.

    Through him, with him, in him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, Almighty Father, for ever and ever.

    Amen.

    (Everyone)
    Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
    Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
    Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world, grant us peace.

    (Priest)
    This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to His supper.

    (Everyone)
    Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.
     
    #1 Living4Him, Apr 23, 2005
  2. Melanie

    Melanie Active Member
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    I guess I missed the point. I know Jesus Christ died on the cross for my salvation and for all mankind. He is risen....I know that. Alleluia
     
    #2 Melanie, Apr 23, 2005
  3. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    I have noticed time and time again throughout this board that non-Catholics make the charge that Catholics continually sacrifice Jesus.

    So, I was pointing out what is really said during communion. The above post is meant to enlighten those who are in the dark with regards to what Catholics believe.
     
    #3 Living4Him, Apr 23, 2005
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No one said that they think Catholics are ignornant of the fact that Christ died and rose again after being sacrificed. Nor has anyone claimed that Catholics must not know that Jesus is in heaven - or that Catholics think Jesus is still on the cross.

    What HAS been said is that the RC error is to teach that each mass EVENT is another EVENT where Christ is sacrificed.

    Now lets state the obvious for a minute --
    Each MASS is obviously an EVENT. And if you HAVE the mass then the EVENT takes place. If the MASS is cancelled the EVENT does NOT take place.

    The RCC says that each Mass EVENT is NOT simply an EVENT commemorating the PAST event of the cross NOR is it an EVENT that is simply a MEMORIAL of the past once-for-all Sacrifice EVENT of the Cross. What the RCC says of each MAss EVENT is that it IS an ACTUAL SACRIFICE of Christ where God is "CONFECTED" and then sacrificed!


    Skipping over the details of the complaint will not help solve the problem.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Apr 23, 2005
  5. violet

    violet Guest

    Don't the Jews, when celebrating Passover, celebrate it as though they were participating in the same historical event? ("Why is this night different than all other nights?" etc.) Couldn't the mass be seen in the same light?
     
    #5 violet, Apr 23, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That would be a perfect way to view the Mass.

    But the Passover is a "memorial" of a past event. If the RCC were content with that - I don't think there would be any complaints.

    They want a CONTINUAL sacrifice NOT a "ONCE FOR ALL".

    But they are stuck with the "ONCE FOR ALL" language of scripture so in true dark-ages form they simply use double-speak. They use contradictory phrases in an effort to cover their areas of exposure and hope the the faithful followers "will not notice" that the "ONCE FOR ALL" language of scripture REFUTES the CONTINUED sacrifice as "god is CONFECTED" and then sacrificed -- ideas of the RCC.

    The amazing thing is that by quoting the "ONCE FOR ALL" language of scripture they TELL the faithful exactly what they are doing wrong AS THEY DO IT WRONG!

    How then does someone not see it??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Apr 23, 2005
  7. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob,
    What are you talking about?
    Yes, I have heard the charges that I have addressed.
    You and your "god confected" stuff is old. You have been told of several other religious group that believe Jesus when he stated that he is present in the Eucharist.

    At the Last Supper He stated, "This is My Body, This is My Blood." He didn't state this represents my body and blood."
     
    #7 Living4Him, Apr 23, 2005
  8. RTG

    RTG New Member

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    What does it mean to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of man?John6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life:he that cometh to me shall never hunger;and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.If you have come to him believing Jesus says you will never hunger or thirst.6:52 The Jews therefore strove omong themselves saying,How can this man give us flesh to eat?Rome thinks they have figured out away other than what the Lord tells us in verse 35.Asking God to put himself in to a peice of bread or into wine so one can bow down and consume it sounds like idolatry to me.We need to read our bibles,Study the words of the men who formed the doctrines we follow,making sure we prove our beliefs with Gods word."Lifted up was He to die;It is finished!--was his cry:Now in heaven,exalted high:--Hallelujah!What a Saviour!"I don't know who's saying this is but I like it.rtg
     
    #8 RTG, Apr 23, 2005
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I am not the author of "god CONFECTED"! -- That is the RC language not mine. I simply quote it.

    Trying to cast me as the author of RC doctrine is not going to solve the problem for the RCC.

    I know of no other groups talking about "confecting God" except the RCC - do you?

    1. At the last supper Christ said that it was a MEMORIAL service and NOT a SACRIFICE EVENT

    2. Christ HAD NOT been sacrificed at the time of the Lord's Supper. It was clearly symbolic by that fact aLONE! HE WAS DRINKING the cup and HE was EATING the bread along with them!!

    3. The John 6 discourse HAD ALREADY shown the use of these symbols as referring to HIS teaching.

    4. In Matt 16 Christ had ALREADY chastised them for taking the symbol of bread for teaching -- TOO literally!

    The EATING of the bread and drinking of the cup were to remind them of the ONCE FOR ALL event AT THE CROSS - Christ BROKEN for them and His blood spilled FOR THEM. It is a REAL once-for-all event.

    There is no "CONFECTING GOD" then sacrificing God in this service - like there is for the RCC doctrine.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Apr 23, 2005
  10. mioque

    mioque New Member

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    "What HAS been said is that the RC error is to teach that each mass EVENT is another EVENT where Christ is sacrificed. "
    "
    Crossposted with appropriate changes.
    Bob seems to be unware of centuries of infighting among Roman Catholic theologians about whether the Eucharist is to be seen in an 'oblationist' or an 'immolationist' light. The 'oblationist' view focuses on Christ's present priestly intercesssion before the Father. The 'immolationist' view, on the other hand, is all about Christ's presence upon the altar in a figure of death. While the latter view is extremely problematic, it is the other position ('oblationism') which has thanks to men like Ratzinger and Wojtyla decidedly won the debate a couple of decades ago. No Roman Catholic theologian would agree with Bob's description that the mass is a 're-sacrifice' of Jezus.

    "You have been told of several other religious group that believe Jesus when he stated that he is present in the Eucharist."
    "
    what? You mean groups like those evil Lutherans. ;)
     
    #10 mioque, Apr 24, 2005
  11. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    I don't see the priest confecting God. This shows that it is the action of the Holy Spirit to change the bread and wine.

    1Cor 10:16, "The cup of the blessing that we bless, IS IT NOT THE SHARING OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? And the bread that we break, IS IT NOT THE PARTAKING OF THE BODY OF THE LORD?"

    1Cor 11:23-26, St. Paul repeats the words of consecration of Jesus Christ at the last supper.
    1Cor 11:27-29, St. Paul lays it on the line, "Therefore, whoever eats this bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, will be guilty of the Body and the Blood of the Lord (27). But let a man prove himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the cup; (28) FOR HE WHO EATS AND DRINKS UNWORTHILY, WITHOUT DISTINGUISHING THE BODY, EATS AND DRINKS JUDGMENT (the word is 'damnation' in the King James Bible) TO HIMSELF." (29)

    On the road to Emmaus...
    In Luke 24:13-35, we have the story of two of the disciples walking on the road to Emmaus shortly after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus joined them in their walk, but they did not recognize Him (16). He interpreted all the Scriptures for them that referred to Himself (27)and yet they still failed to recognize Him. It was toward evening and they invited Him to dine with them (29). Then something very dramatic happened as they reclined (30-31).Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and with that, they immediately recognized
    His true presence in the Breaking of Bread, the Holy Eucharist.
    "And they themselves began to relate what had happened on the journey, AND HOW THEY RECOGNIZED HIM IN THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD." (35)
     
    #11 Living4Him, Apr 24, 2005
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Do you really intend to stand on this point and credibly say that you do not go along with the teaching that the church priest is "confecting god"? Do you mean that you recognize such a thing as error and would not go along with the RCC teaching such error?

    (I hope you are saying this - because that would be a very noble and well thoughtout position to take)

    Or are you saying that regardless if "confecting god" is error or not - you will gladly swallow that error if it can be shown that the RCC teaches it?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Apr 24, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As for JPII on this notion of Confecting Christ --

     
    #13 BobRyan, Apr 24, 2005
  14. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    That was just a meal, not a "Eucharist ceremony". Notice, no wine! No pronouncement of "this is my flesh". Break Bread" was done at any meal, and since the communion was a meal with bread, of course it would involve "breaking bread". But that does not make "break bread" equate "communion" always.
    And even if if did; that still says nothing about the nature of the bread!
     
    #14 Eric B, Apr 24, 2005
  15. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    Bob,

    You keep missing the point.

    The priest are merely instruments of Christ, it is the power of the Holy Spirit.

    All of the RCC quotes that you post state that it is the power of the Holy Spirit.
     
    #15 Living4Him, Apr 24, 2005
  16. Living4Him

    Living4Him New Member

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    You don't need the wine. If one merely receives the Holy Eucharist without the wine, they still have wholly received Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
     
    #16 Living4Him, Apr 24, 2005
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    ALL the quotes point to the fact that ONLY the priest "has the power".

    AND the quote that says "he RETAINS that POWER EVEN if excommunicated" is NOT speaking about the Holy Spirit retaining HIS Power!

    (Just stating the obvious).

    We can all read.

    That is the big change since the dark ages.
     
    #17 BobRyan, Apr 24, 2005
  18. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    Where does it teach that? (Like the RCC practice of giving the recipients the bread only, and only the priests get the wine)?
     
    #18 Eric B, Apr 24, 2005
  19. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    The Christian Reformed Church has made peace with the RCC by agreeing that the Mass is Christian Worship.
     
    #19 billwald, Apr 24, 2005
  20. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    L4H, I notice you only quoted from the 2nd Eucharistic Prayer of the post-Vatican II vernacular liturgy of the Eucharist; is there any material difference in the other three prayers re your OP topic?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
    #20 Matt Black, Apr 25, 2005
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