Did the Church replace the Jews as God's chosen people?

Hi All
Parables are parables. Written, to be looked into and not taken word for word.

ROMANS 11 [25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

ALL Israel saved. Blinded for now.Incidently Israel does not consist of only the Jews. It also includes the remnant of the 10 scattered tribes.

JER.51 [5] For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.[6] Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

The Holy One of Israel is Jesus. In Jer.51 the WORD speaks of Israel(the 12 tribes)and speaks specificly of the tribe of Judah(the jews).Even though they did what they did to Jesus they will not be forsaken.

And,just who did crucify Christ? Seems(according to scripture)we all had a hand in it.

MATT.20 [18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,[19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to
crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

 

If the church did not replace the Jews then Jesus lied when He stated:
Matthew 21:38 "But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
21:39 "So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
21:41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:

'The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD'S doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes'?

21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Luke 20:16 "He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others." And when they heard it they said, "Certainly not!"
20:17 Then He looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written:

'The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone'?

20:18 "Whoever falls on that stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder."

 

And your point is?? You have only quoted Scripture that would prove my point that the church does NOT replace Israel. You have said nothing, given no explanation, nor have backed up your baseless statement.
DHK

 

Just a note to remind myself to read this when I am awake.

 

Chap.13


ROM 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
ROM 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Now we will address the question of who the nation of God is in this new covenant era. As has been the case with all that we have examined in relation to the transition from the old covenant to the new, that which was literal has now been replaced with that which is spiritual. For those Jews who accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God and their personal Savior, it became quickly apparent that God does not respect any person abover another, but was inviting all to be a part of His kingdom.
According to the Apostle Paul, being a Jew has nothing to do with that which is outward in the flesh, but rather that which is inward, of the heart, and the spirit. In the new covenant, circumcision of the flesh no longer carries any weight in determining who is A Jew, but rather circumcision of the heart. The heart must be circumcised in the spirit if one is to be an Israelite of the new covenant.

ROM 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the
mouth confession is made unto salvation.
ROM 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be
ashamed.
ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the
same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
ROM 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


GAL 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
GAL 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on
Christ.
GAL 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there
is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
GAL 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs
according to the promise.


COL 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor
uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in
all.

Paul could not have made it any clearer. Anyone who accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, is a child of God. They are Christ's, and being so they are also Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Abraham is the father of the nation of Israel. If you are of Abraham's seed, then you are unquestionably an Israelite. Israel is now a spiritual nation. The purpose of the literal nation of Israel has been fulfilled in Christ. It has not been done away with, but rather made complete. The old testament clearly pointed to this event taking place.

GEN 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee;
for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will
perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
GEN 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will
give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations
of the earth be blessed;


HEB 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on
him the seed of Abraham.


The prophecy in Genesis was given to Isaac. God's purpose in calling out Abraham from his brethren was not only for those who would compose the literal nation of Israel, but for the blessing of those of all nations. The purpose of the nation of Israel was to preserve a people, and a knowledge of God in the world until God Himself established salvation for all mankind through his Son. This purpose being fulfilled, the literal nation of Israel must needs give way to the spiritual nation of Israel composed of all those who are in Christ, regardless of what nation they were born into. If they choose to be born again in Christ, then they are God's children. As pointed out in the verse above from the book of Hebrews, Christ is the one prophesied in Genesis as the seed that shall be a blessing to all the nations.


GAL 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord
Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
GAL 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor
uncircumcision, but a new creature.
GAL 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and
mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Who are the Israel of God, but those who glory only in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Those who have become separate from the world by faith in Christ are those who compose the new covenant Israel. The only way to become separate from this world is to die. The only way to die and yet still have life, and have it more abundantly, is to die in Christ on the cross, thus allowing Him to live within us. These things we have already discussed. This is a spiritual experience. Those who are a part of the new covenant Israel, are those who have entered into this spiritual experience. The Lord Jesus Christ made it clear while here on earth, as one of us, that those that would be His were to be separate from the world.

JOH 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
JOH 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because
ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore
the world hateth you.


JOH 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
JOH 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
JOH 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Those who are Christ's are not a part of this world, they are a part of the next world, the one that will be established at Christ's second coming. This world and all that is in it is passing away. Only those who are a part of spiritual Israel, who have come out of this world by faith in Christ, will remain and be a part of the next eternal heaven and earth. We who have entered into the experience that Christ has prepared for us are already a part of eternity. This is not because of anything in us, but only as a result of connecting ourselves with the one who is eternal.

HEB 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
HEB 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
HEB 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

We are Abraham's seed. Just as Abraham obeyed God by faith and by faith sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, so we are in this world but are not a part of it. Just as Abraham looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God, so we are awaiting the return of Christ to establish His everlasting kingdom here on earth. Our experience is the same as his, by faith waiting for the establishment of that which has been promised to us, although we can not see it.

HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
HEB 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
HEB 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
HEB 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Christ has promised that He will return and receive His own. He will establish His everlasting kingdom here on the earth. His true followers, those that compose the spiritual nation of Israel, are awaiting His return to set up His kingdom. They have separated themselves from this world and are preparing to be a part of the next one. They are not trying to make another literal nation or kingdom of God here on this earth, but are calling all out of this world to prepare for the next one in which God Himself will rule for eternity.

JOH 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would
have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
JOH 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


PE2 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
PE2 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The new covenant Israel is waiting upon the Lord. It is composed of those of every nation and tongue on earth that have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. They are looking for and hastening the day of the Lord. They are actively involved in the work of preparing others for His soon coming. This is not done by attempting to create literal nations of God here on earth through the power of legislation. It is done by calling people out of the literal nations of this world and into the spiritual nation of Israel. It is accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit, not the power of the state. Those who compose God's kingdom here on earth must be born again. No kind of legislation can bring about the new birth experience of the new covenant. Those who are of the flesh are not of God's kingdom, but only those who are of the spirit.

ROM 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
ROM 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
ROM 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
ROM 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Christ came from the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All the children of Israel are of the seed of these fathers of Israel. However, as Paul points out, this does not automatically make them Israelites. It is the children of the promise that are counted for the seed, not the children of the flesh. Isaac was the child of promise. His birth was a miracle from God. This miracle was not for the sake of Abraham and Sarah, but for the blessing of all nations. Christ was of the seed of Abraham. In Him all nations were to be blessed. For this reason, Abraham and Sarah must have had a child of their own. Not for their own sake, but because God had chosen Abraham and his descendants for this very purpose. Through them and their descendants (namely Christ) God intended to save the entire world. This is why those of the flesh are not counted for the seed, but only those of the promise. That is to say, those who have accepted the promise, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ. These are they that compose Israel, spiritual Israel.
Isaac was the child that God had promised to Abraham and Sarah. It is God's promise that we are talking about. Abraham believed God and this was counted to him as righteousness. "ROM 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Isaac was the miracle child of promise to Abraham and Sarah. Christ is the miracle child of promise to the entire world for the salvation of all. All who accept Christ as such are the children of the promise. They have believed God's promise through His Son, and it is counted unto them as righteousness.


GEN 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew
thee:
GEN 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
GEN 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

As we have discussed in previous chapters, the literal nation of Israel was brought about by God, and for God's glory. All of the miracles and wonders performed by God for Israel were only leading up to the greatest miracle of all, that God Himself should become a man for the salvation of all humanity. Everything about the old covenant, and the literal nation of Israel, pointed to Christ and humanities deliverance through Him. The establishment of the new covenant on the other hand, fulfilled our deliverance in Him. All things come together and are made complete in Christ. In Christ, the literal nation of Israel has become a spiritual one without walls or boundaries that separate anyone from God's blessings. Just as God brought about and established the old covenant Israel through His miraculous power, so He has brought about and established the new covenant Israel through the greatest miracle of all. In Christ all the families of the earth have been blessed and come together.


ROM 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
ROM 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
ROM 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness
of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
ROM 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
ROM 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
ROM 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
ROM 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
ROM 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
ROM 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Abraham is the father of all who exercise his same kind of faith in God. In these last days, that faith is to be fixed upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. God's nation on earth during this new covenant era, cannot be a literal nation, for it is composed of all those who are experiencing this faith. The gospel of Jesus Christ breaks down all barriers and walls between peoples. It is a final message to the entire world. When this message has been given to the entire world in one generation, and all have made a decision regarding which world, or kingdom, they want to be a citizen of, then the end will come. When all have made their decision, the Lord Jesus Christ will return and set up His eternal kingdom.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There is only one decision to be made. Am I a part of this world, of one of its many different and often warring countries or kingdoms, or am I going to choose by faith to be a part of God's kingdom here on earth? Am I a part of this world, and all of its pain and misery and corruption and abuse, brought about by selfishness? Or am I going to choose by faith to be a part of God's kingdom, ruled by the one who demonstrated selflessness and true love to the world through His Son the Lord Jesus Christ?
We can live in this world and yet not be a part of it. Stop for a moment, take a good look at what is going on in this world, do you really want to be a part of all that it stands for. I don't mean just look at your own life, I mean take a good look at just how much suffering and pain is going on in this world. It was never meant to be this way, and it is not going to be this way very much longer. This world is on its last leg, soon it will come to a complete and utter end. Come out of this world, and help others to do so. Lets get ready to meet the Lord Jesus Christ, and join Him in the new heaven and earth where righteousness dwells.
Christ has established a new kingdom here on earth, one that will never end. All are invited to be citizens of the eternal kingdom of God. As is the case with all that we have discussed regarding the establishment of the new covenant, the spiritual nation of God here on earth was brought about in and through Christ. By becoming a man and taking upon Himself our flesh and nature, He has made those of us who choose to be so, citizens of the kingdom of God.


HEB 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
HEB 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
HEB 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
HEB 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
HEB 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come,
whereof we speak.
HEB 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
HEB 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
HEB 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
HEB 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
HEB 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
HEB 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
HEB 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
HEB 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
HEB 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
HEB 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
HEB 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
HEB 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Christ was made like unto His brethren in all things. He was and is one of us, and this is salvation. If we are in Him, and He is in us, then we are no longer part of that which is passing away, but are part of that which is eternal. This is a spiritual experience that separates those of the world from those of Christ's kingdom. Again, all things come together and are made complete in Christ. The literal nation of Israel's purpose was to point forward to the coming of Christ, at which point the spiritual nation of Israel was established. Christ fulfilled and completed the purpose of literal Israel, the blessing of all nations of the earth, by establishing spiritual Israel. We will examine more of the specifics of how Christ established spiritual Israel in the next chapter.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Paul was using a metaphor. He did not say that all who believed were Jews. Let me give you an example.

Mat.5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Jesus said to all believer that "Ye are the light of the world." He then compares the believer to a candle. In your physical appearance do you look like a candle? Do you drip like a candle? Are you a candle?
You are as much a Jew as you are a candle.
You are as much a spiritual Jew as a spiritual candle. The Bile uses metaphors. Paul, in no way, was inferring or stating, that you became or replaced the Jewish nation. You are not a Jew. If you are, what tribe do you belong to? What class of candle to belong to?

Your right. Paul could not have made it clearer. All who believed became Christians. Some had Jewish backgrounds. Some had Gentile backgrounds. But when they were saved they were one in Christ. That is what Christ was explaining. When a Muslim gets saved do you call him an Islamic Christian? No! He is a believer in Christ, a Christian. When a Hindu gets saved, is he a Hindu Christian? No, he is a believer in Christ, a Christian. This is what Paul was explaining. No matter what your background: Jew or Gentile, we are all one in Christ when saved. The unsaved Jews remained Jews. They were not replaced nor destroyed. They unsaved Gentiles remained Gentiles. They were not replaced nor destroyed.

These promises have not been fulfilled yet. They were given to Abraham and Isaac, and Jacob, not to you. Believing Gentiles do not replace Israel. You are not rightly dividing the Word of truth. You are not a Jew. That is a falsehood. You are a gentile. Those promises were given to Abraham and his generations forever. You have no claim to them. Someday the son of David will sit on His throne and rule the earth from Jerusalem, and all the Israelites will finally find peace in the land. Not the believing Christians; but the actual nation of Israel.

You really bombed out here. These verses say nothing about Israel at all. They all speak about those who believe in Christ. So your point is...??
Paul made clear that he would glory in nothing but the cross. All were equal under Christ. Both Jew and Gentile. The one did not replace the other. Both were equal and united under Christ.

This is Christ's great High Priestly Prayer for his disciples. It has nothing to do with the nation of Israel.

We are not Abraham's physical seed. What tribe are you from. Do you not get it yet? Paul uses metaphors. You are as much as the seed of Abraham as you are a candle. Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him righteousness. We are saved the same way. That doesn't make us his children. If it did, we would be the children of Noah as well. For Noah was saved the same way.

Those died having not the promise--before the cross. We are after the cross. We have the promise--believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. We can look back on the cross. They looked forward to the cross, but never actually saw it. That message was to Israel, and Israel only.

The promise here is that God will create a new heaven and a new earth. What has that got to do with price of tea in China. It is simply a red herring--nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Christ was a Jew. That is one of the blessings of the Jews to us. The Bible was written by the Jews, another blessing of the Jews to us. All the world will be blessed by the chilren of Abraham, the physical children of Abraham.
The rest of the verses simply point out, that whether in the New Testament or in the Old, one has to believe in order to be saved. That is such a simple concept. Why don't you get it?
DHK

[ September 12, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Keith - excellent post and references!

Here is the one I like best for this topic --

Romans 9
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are NOT all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


It could not "be" any clearer.

God has never had a program about the "specially lost" or "specially rebellious". Rather it has always been about "salvation" and the one true church of God.

In the case of the Hebrews - they are the ONE TRUE Church of God started at Sinai setup as witnesses of salvation to proclaim the Gospel as priests.

The "late" ideas about the "specially lost Hebrews" vs the Gospel-and-salvation is not Biblical.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The literal nation of Israel was brought about to be a witness to the nations around them of the power and greatness of Jehovah. For example, Jonah went to the Ninevites, and the entire city repented. Abraham was a witness to a Pharaoh and the king of Gerar. Moses showed the power of God to pharaoh and fear fell upon all the land. All the land knew of Jehovah, the God of Israel, because of the works of God done through Israel. Just as Israel was a witness for Jehovah, we also are to be a witness for Christ.

Your last statement is completely false and unproveable. "In Christ the literal nation of Israel has become a spritual one." NONSENSE!
Go to Israel and tell the Israelites that.
When Christ came some of the Jews believed: Peter, Paul, John, etc. They became Christians. There was still a nation of Jews. Many believed. Many did not. Eventually the Jews were scattered abroad. But they were not utterly destroyed. God kept his promise to David that He would preserve a remnant, which would one day turn back to Him. In 1948 Israel was once again recognized as a nation. Since then the Jews (Israelites have been returning back to their home-land). The anti-semitic position of Replacement Theology (that the Church has replaced the Jews) fits in nicely with the philosophy of Hitler's Nazism and Islam's agenda to exterminate the Jews. If the Jews are replaced by the church then they have no right to exist, and they might as well be exterminated just as Hitler and the present Muslims think. But the Jews do have a right to exist. And when Christ comes again they will turn toward Him and accept Him as their Messiah, and will do so as a nation. (Rom.11:26).

All the families of the earth have been blessed because of Israel. We would not have a Saviour, Jesus Christ except it had been of the Jews. Christ was a Jew. We would not have a Bible except it would have been for the Jews. Both Old and New Testaments were written by Jews.
The covenant of the Old Testament was given to the Jews. It still remains with the Jews. Read Jeremiah 31. God has yet to fulfill his covenant with the Jews. God did not make that covenant with the Christians, he made it with the Jews. The covenant with Jews has not yet been fulfilled, but will someday in the Millennial Kingdom.

The point of Paul's argument is that Abraham believed God and thus it was counted unto him for righteousness. Salvation is by faith, and not by works. As it was in the Old Testament, so it is in the New Testament. Salvation is by faith, not by works.
Israel as a nation still exists.
God in this era is calling out a nation for Himself--that is true. But that has nothing to do with Israel. We are a holy nation, a peculiar people, called forth to show the praises of Him who died for us. We are not Jews. Which tribe are you from?? We are Christians. They were first called Christians at Antioch, the Bible says, not spiritual Jews, or a Spiritual Israel. They were called Christians.
The gospel of Jesus Christ does break down all barriers, just as you say. That is precisely why we are not Jews, and why the Jewish nation still exists today. All nations, and those of variuous ethnic backgrounds, become one in Christ when they are saved. A Gentile becomes a Christian. A Jew becomes a Christian. Neither one replaces the other. The Jews still exist, and the Gentile nations still exist.

That depends on you and the way that you live. Paul said in Romans 12:2 "Be not conformed to this world." Obviously there are Christians that are worldly. Phil.3:20 says that we are citizens of Heaven (positionally). 2Cor.5:20,21 states that we are ambassadors for Jesus Christ. Yet we still live in this world. Despite what you do, you live in this world. You are a part of this world. Your body will not be redeemed until the rapture takes place and you receive your resurrection body. You, until then will suffer pain, sorrow, death. Even if you choose to live by faith, you cannot escape the fact that you live in this world.

Don't you suffer pain? Are you not still in this world, a part of this world?
Just curious--could you answer this for me:
1. Did Christ have a beginning, or was He forever eternal?
2. If Christ did have a beginning, how did He come into existence?

Christ is not one of us. He is God. He became God in the flesh. He was totally God and totally man at the same time. He never left his divinity behind. He was and always has been God, from eternity to eternity. We will never, never, attain godhood. That is an impossiblity. Christ alone is God--the second person of the triune Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. These three persons are united inexplicably together as three persons in one God.
Christ is God.
DHK

 

Hello, I would like to say that I am enjoying "both sides" of this topic. Thanks to all!

 

Welcome to Baptist Board, Heart Talker. Feel free to jump in at any time. I hope your stay here is a good one.
DHK

 

Hello DHK.

Gal 6:15-16 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Those who are new creatures in Christ Jesus, are the Israel of God.

Eph 2:12-14 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Though you wish to separate the two DHK, God has made them one. This was his purpose in Christ Jesus. The promises of God belong to all his children. There is not one set of promises for the saved Jews, and another set of promises for the saved Gentiles.

Eph 2:18-20 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

We are all fellow citizens of the household of God in Christ Jesus. We are built upon the apostles and prophets, Jesus himself being the chief corner stone.

Gal 3:26-29 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The above verse is not a metaphor DHK. It is a promise of God. There is nothing symbolic going on in these verses. The point is that there is no separation between Jew and Greek in Christ. Both are Abraham’s seed. That is, they are children of the promise. These verses are a conclusive statement which contradict your views.

This is a simple concept DHK., and a very biblical one. Why don’t you get it?

Exod 19:6 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 14:2 2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1 Pet 2:9-10 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

How about that, these titles that once belonged to Israel, that is the Jews, now apply to the church. That is because those who are born again are spiritual Israelites. God’s kingdom on earth is a spiritual one. It is composed of those who are born again from all nations, including the Jewish nation. There is no separation between them.

Deut 26:18 18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;

Titus 2:14 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

How about that. The church and Israel are both God’s peculiar people, and have the same purpose. I don’t think there is any need to go on with these examples. You wish to separate, what God has brought together. Why do you want to put the wall which God has pulled down through his Son Jesus Christ, back up?

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

I just noticed your second post DHK. It's to late to reply tonight. I will do my best tommorrow.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

Hello again DHK.

Oh well, I guess I couldn’t wait till morning.

You said:

“Your last statement is completely false and unproveable. "In Christ the literal nation of Israel has become a spritual one." NONSENSE!
Go to Israel and tell the Israelites that.
When Christ came some of the Jews believed: Peter, Paul, John, etc. They became Christians. There was still a nation of Jews. Many believed. Many did not. Eventually the Jews were scattered abroad. But they were not utterly destroyed. God kept his promise to David that He would preserve a remnant, which would one day turn back to Him. In 1948 Israel was once again recognized as a nation. Since then the Jews (Israelites have been returning back to their home-land). The anti-semitic position of Replacement Theology (that the Church has replaced the Jews) fits in nicely with the philosophy of Hitler's Nazism and Islam's agenda to exterminate the Jews. If the Jews are replaced by the church then they have no right to exist, and they might as well be exterminated just as Hitler and the present Muslims think. But the Jews do have a right to exist. And when Christ comes again they will turn toward Him and accept Him as their Messiah, and will do so as a nation. (Rom.11:26).”

John 8:23 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 15:19 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 17:13-19 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

John 18:36 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

God’s kingdom is not of this world. If you are one of his people, then you are not of this world. God’s people on earth, are a part of His spiritual kingdom here on earth. There is no literal nation of God on earth, for His kingdom is not of this world.

The Apostles did not become Christians, Christian was a name they began to be called because they followed Christ. None of the Apostles, or Jews who accepted Jesus Christ, intended to leave the Jewish faith. They were driven out by those Jews who rejected Christ. This was because the Jews who had accepted Christ remained Jewish, and even went to the temples with the rest of the Jews to tell them about Christ.

I am glad that the Nazi’s are not still in power. Since my grandfather was Jewish, I don’t think it would be well for me if they were.

The Jews, and all of humanity have a right to exist. Jesus Christ paid the price for that right. When Christ returns again my friend, it will be to late for anyone to accept him as their Savior. It is not possible that the literal nation of Israel which now exists, are God’s people. Most of them do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You have bought into a false interpretation of prophecy if you think that the world will have another chance to accept Jesus as their Savior.

You said:
“All the families of the earth have been blessed because of Israel. We would not have a Saviour, Jesus Christ except it had been of the Jews. Christ was a Jew. We would not have a Bible except it would have been for the Jews. Both Old and New Testaments were written by Jews.
The covenant of the Old Testament was given to the Jews. It still remains with the Jews. Read Jeremiah 31. God has yet to fulfill his covenant with the Jews. God did not make that covenant with the Christians, he made it with the Jews. The covenant with Jews has not yet been fulfilled, but will someday in the Millennial Kingdom.”

Friend, forgive my harshness, but, how dare you attribute the existence of the Son of God as the Savior of this world to a sinful race and nation of this earth. How dare you attribute the word of God to the same. God himself brought all these things to this world, by his own power. No man, or race, or nation of men can take the credit for them. God is the one to be glorified, not the instruments He used. Or do you think God was not capable of bringing these things about through some other people, or method? You will need to argue your point concerning the new testament with your Catholic friends, for they like to take the credit for that one. You are both seriously in the wrong, for claiming credit for God’s work to mere men.

The Millennial Kingdom is in heaven, not on earth. It takes place after the earth is destroyed at Christ’s second coming.

2 Pet 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

You said “Don't you suffer pain? Are you not still in this world, a part of this world?
Just curious--could you answer this for me:
1. Did Christ have a beginning, or was He forever eternal?
2. If Christ did have a beginning, how did He come into existence?”

James 4:4 4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Christ is one with the Father. No beginning, no end. I’ll let you ask Him how when you meet Him. I’ll be listening for the answer.

You said “Christ is not one of us. He is God. He became God in the flesh. He was totally God and totally man at the same time. He never left his divinity behind. He was and always has been God, from eternity to eternity. We will never, never, attain godhood. That is an impossiblity. Christ alone is God--the second person of the triune Godhead: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. These three persons are united inexplicably together as three persons in one God.”

I never suggested that we will attain to godhood.

You said it yourself, Christ was totally God, and Totally man. However, if he had lived life like either when here on earth, we would have no hope. If Christ had let his human nature act out it’s desires, then he would have sinned, and we would be lost. If Christ had lived as God on earth, doing the things he did through the power of his own divinity, then we would also have no hope, not being able to follow him. Christ came here, and lived as a man, doing only the Fathers will, through the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own. In this way he is our perfect example and Savior.

Matt 3:16-17 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 5:30 30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 8:28-29 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

John 15:4-10 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

There is some amazing stuff on here and some
amazingly long sermons. I don't have time to
read all this but wish I did. Perhaps on another
day. Oooo, it is hard not to answer. It is just
that synagogue starts in just a little over two
hours, and I must get things ready.

(Reluctantly walks away . . . . )

 

Happy Sabbath Abiyah!

We studied Hebrews 10 in Sabbath school today. Hope your worship service was a blessing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thank you, Bob. I hope yours, and everyone else's,
was filled with joy, rest, hope, and especially His
shalom.

Our parashah included Deuteronomy 31:1 - 13,
Isaiah 48:12 - 22, and 2 Timothy 3:1 - 17. The
teacher's lesson was on trusting our God. The
most memorable pithy statement for me was
actually taken from the parashah from weeks
earlier on Deuteronomy 23: "Put the latrine on the
outside of the camp, because G-d walks in your
camp." I really needed to hear that, after the stuff
that has gone on the last few weeks.

 

Facinating thing about Heb 10.

We often consider how we would love it if our Hebrew non-Messianic bretheren would truly read Isaiah 53 with open heart and mind - and consider what a change it would make for them.

The same is true of Hebrews 10 and our Roman Catholic bretheren. It speaks to the sacrifice and offering of Christ - as well as the washing of Baptism.

Shalom,

Bob

 

This is a point for real prayer. There are many
shuls around my area, and I attended a few before
choosing mine. Many Jews have been saved
through taking biblical Hebrew and trying to
translate that chapter. One man said that when
it did not fit with what he had been taught at his
synagogue, he took it to his rabbi. He left without
satisfactory answers, went on a search for the
answers, and ended up believing that Y'shua was,
indeed, Messiah. This is the testimony of many.

 

Rom.3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

In Romans 3:2 the word "oracle" is a word that refers to the Scriptures. It says that "Unto the Jews were committed the Scriptures. The Scriptures came from the Jews. This is God's Word, not mine.

It was Jesus that said that salvation is of the Jews. You cannot be saved without the Jewish race. That is just fact. Christ stated it. Christ was born of Mary--a Jew. He Himself was a descendent of David--a Jew. Salvation is of the Jews. Argue it with God.

God chose the Jewish race, the nation of Israel, to reveal Himself to the world. If you are anti-semitic, and do not care for that idea, than God have mercy on you. But that is what the Bible teaches. God called out a nation for Himself in the Old Testament, whose father was Abraham. Ever since Gen.3:15, He has been promising the human race that a deliverer would come, to deliver mankind from their sin. That man finally came--a Jew, Jesus Christ--God Himself clothed in human flesh, and died for the sins of mankind.

While on earth He entered into a Jewish synagogue, and read from a scroll, a portion of the Book of Isaiah. He sat down saying that these things were that day accomplished before their eyes. He was testifying that the Jewish Scriptures, written by Jewish people, were speaking of Him, who was to be their Jewish Saviour.
On another note, God was capable of using any people he wanted to. But He didn't. He chose to use the Jews, the nation of Israel. They were the instrument that He used to show forth His praises. Yes indeed we give God the glory, even as Moses gave God glory at Mount Sinai, and Solomon gave God glory at the building of the Temple. We may give God glory that He chose the Jews. As Christ Himself said, "Salvation is of the Jews."

As far as the Catholics are concerned, you can ask them yourselves. Every book in the New Testament Canon as we have it today, was written by a Jew. There is no one here that will dispute that fact. God used the Jews to bring us the Scriptures, and the Scriptures themselves state it as much.

The Millennial Kingdom in not in Heaven, and it does not take place after the earth is destroyed. This subject would be better discussed on another thread as it is very detailed. Briefly Christ promised to come back to earth and set up His Kingdom for a thousand years on earth. He will rule with a rod of iron, something he would not have to do if he were in heaven.

quoted from Abiyah:

Perhaps it would be good for you to ask Abiyah if the people that she was referring to as "Jews" were indeed Jews, before and after they got saved.
Her statement seems to indicate, contrary to your belief that there is a Jewish nation called Israel that still exists today. And many of those people still get saved today. There is a nation called Israel. You do not belong to it. The Church did not replace the Jews. If they did what tribe do you belong to?
DHK

 

Amein, DHK