Some thoughts on the Biblical Shabbat - Sabbath

Jesus is our rest, Matt. 11:28.

We are in the Messianic Kingdom now. Be sure you enter yourself, while it is called To day, before you miss it.

 

Heb 4:9 is relavent to today for sure. However the Pope and the Vatican have certainley changed its interpretation.

 

"Come unto ME all who are weary.. I will give you Rest" Matt 11:28.

Gospel truth spoken BEFORE the cross - BEFORE the church age of the christian church. When Christs 10 commandments were in full force by all accounts.

Christ said "The Sabbath was made for mankind" in Mark 2:27.

I believe it.

In Isaiah 66 we are told that "ALL mankind will come before me to worship" in the New Heavens and the New earth - From Sabbath To Sabbath. And Still Christ will be our "rest" then as well.

The 6000 years model is compelling - but where is it documented? What is the source?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

Mevaser,

Very interesting points made. Makes one seriously consider how and when we should be taking our rest. But is "rest", as used in Heb 4:9 the same word as Sabbath in the Hebrew? I am curious.

 

Hi BobRyan,

Get with the times.. New Testament times, that is.

The Sabbath is no longer binding, and Christians are to woship on Sunday instead, which fulfills the Sabbath

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Colossians 2:16-17)

"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight" (Acts 20:7)

And, Saint John, who describes the heavenly liturgy, explicitly tells us on what day the Church's liturgy, which is a participation in the heavenly liturgy, occurs:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" (Revelation 1:10)

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop of Antioch, in his Letter to the Magnesians, Chapter 8, written in 110 A.D. tells us, "Those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death."

God bless,

Carson

 

First of all - why would worship on Sunday "Fulfill" a non-binding non-requirement?

You are using a circular argument.

Either the Sabbath is not a binding commandment - in which Case worship on Sunday does nothing to keep or fullfill a defunct commandment of God.

OR it IS a binding commandment (so breaking it is still a sin) but it has been edited to say "First day" instead of "Seventh day" and "Sabbath" AND it has all references to the creation event removed from it as well.

OR it is a binding commandment that has not been edited - in which case worshipping on Tuesday or Sunday or Monday does nothing to address the requirement for Sabbath - and breaking the Sabbath commandment is still a sin.

Interestingly the Pope in is own Dies Domini encyclical declares that the 10 commandments are a moral law that is applicable to all mankind and that they are perpetual. (But of course that only poses a problem for Catholics in this case).

A good review of the "Shadow Sabbaths" of Lev 23 - annual feastivals that "predicted" the coming of Christ.

However the Sabbath of the 10 commandments is a "memorial" of Creation. The language used in the Sabbath commandment as spoken by God - is a summary of the 6 days of creation - alone.

For this reason Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for Mankind" Mark 2:27

Acts 13 provides a good example of "Sabbath after Sabbath" meetings - but we have no such "sequence" for any other day in the NT. Including Sunday.

In the New Testament we are told that Christ "Is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

It is also called "The Holy Day of the Lord" in Isaiah 58.

We have no other day in all of scripture identified as "the Lords Day" to which we can assign John's term in Rev 1.

If you or anyone else in the Catholic church has any document at all that can be shown to actually and authentically BE from 110 A.D with that wording in it - please produce it.

As it stands today - the "claims" for those dates on that document is not unlike the claim regarding the Donation of Constantine in many respects.

Of course, I am sure you already knew that.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 28, 2002, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Hi BobRyan,

You wrote, "If you or anyone else in the Catholic church has any document at all that can be shown to actually and authentically BE from 110 A.D with that wording in it - please produce it."

So, I see that St. Ignatius' opinion is of some concern to you? If this document is authentic, would it influence whether you keep the Sabbath or the Lord's Day?

God bless,

Carson

 

Acts Ch 13 showa that the Early Church taught on the Sabbath (Saturday) Sure they fellowshipped on all days. Yet Paul is recorded here as Teaching on the Sabbath and holding over the rest of the teaching until the following Saturday. Teaching Both ex-Jews and Gentiles.

People that encourage the doctrine of Sunday Sabbath keeping generally feel that in history the church changed to Sunday as on the basis that the Lord Jesus rose on a Sunday and we are to celebrate that fact.

The descion to formally make the descion to go to Sunday Worship was made at the council of Nicea by the Pope of the church. Christianity was to become the state sanctioned religion. Sun Worshippers did keep Sunday and there is a thought that He was pressured to meet their needs.

I would like to see it firmly stated in the Bible that the Sabbath has been changed from Saturday to Sunday. As I see it the Ten commandments are required for the church today and including keeping the Sabbath Holy. Throughout the Bible the Sabbath is a Saturday. Modern Jews prove this for one. Surley if God wanted the Sabbath changed from Saturday to Sunday He would state so clearly in the Bible?

 

This is not true. The council of Nicea changed nothing in regards to worshipping on Sunday, except to officially recognize that which had been going on ever since the time of the Apostles. If you notice in Acts 2:41 and following the church met daily. When Paul started his misstionary journeys he was not adverse to going into the synagogues and preaching there (until they kicked him out). He eventually turned to the Gentiles. By Acts 20 (verse 7), we find the believers meeting on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians he instructed them to lay aside money on the first day of the week for the collection that he was taking up.

16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Why did Paul command them to "lay in store" or set aside there money on the first day of the week? It wasn't because they were all paid on that day. Business practices were much different then than they are now. It was because that is when they gathered together as a church. They met together on the first day of the week, and the pastor or elders of the church collected an offering that Paul would come and collect for the poor saints at Jerusalem. They met on the first day of the week, as their practice was.

We follow many things out of example, and even some things by tradition, not by commandment. This of course is by direct example in the Bible. Why do we meet in a church building. The early believers did not. They met out in the open. They met in the catacombs (graveyards). They met in homes. Church building did not come into existence until about 200-250 years after the death of Christ. If we go back to the example of Apostolic times we would shut down all of our church buildings and go back to meetings and start meetings in homes. We follow for the most part example in the Bible, and some extra-Biblical tradition as long as it is not unbiblical tradition. In regards to the first day of the week (Sunday) being the day of worship, the example is clearly set for us in the Bible, though not commanded.
DHK

 

I'm more concerned with Christians who think it's not neccessary to keep the Sabbath at all, than I am with those who keep it on a Saturday or Sunday.

 

That's a good point John. According to Exodus 31, the Sabbath was strictly a sign between the nation of Israel and Jehovah. It was never meant to be kept by Gentiles or Christians. It was a covenantal sign between the Jews and Jehovah and to be kept between them (the nation of Israel) and their generations forever.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "The council of Nicea changed nothing in regards to worshipping on Sunday, except to officially recognize that which had been going on ever since the time of the Apostles."

Now.. you aren't defending the Lord's Day using big bad Apostolic Tradition are you?

God bless,

Carson

 

No, to recognize that man has been obeying God, is nothing else but pure recognition. It was in the Bible all along.

We do that with ordination as well. When we (yes, Baptists) ordain a person to the ministry, we simply recognize God's call on that man to preach. If God has truly called that man to preach our recognition of him is worthless. He will preach the gospel whether we recognize him or not--just as John Bunyan did.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "It was in the Bible all along."

Not according to BobRyan.

God bless,

Carson

 

That's a good point John. According to Exodus 31, the Sabbath was strictly a sign between the nation of Israel and Jehovah. It was never meant to be kept by Gentiles or Christians. It was a covenantal sign between the Jews and Jehovah and to be kept between them (the nation of Israel) and their generations forever.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]The Sabbath keeping is in the Ten Commandments, and my view is that the Ten Commandments were intended for all people who intend to follow the God of Abraham, which would include Christians. Outside the Ten Commandments, the fact that there are copious covanental laws that are specific to the nation of Israel is not of dispute.

 

DHK,

Why is it then that in Acts 13:42 the people asked to be given this teaching on the next Sabbath rather than the next day? vs 48 states that on the next Sabbath Gentiles were believing. Why dosent St Paul preach to the Gentiles on any day?

The bible is clear that the Ten Commandments are still valid. We know the Jewish Sabbath is on the Saturday. St Paul teaches Gentiles on the Jewish Sabbath. If God decided to change the day of the Sabbath, wouldent He clearly say so in the New Testament?

 

Here is the first mention of “the” sabbath rest in the Bible.

Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Question: When God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, who were the Jews who were alive at that time?

Granted: All other sabbaths/festivals were between God and the Jews.

Invariably, folks debating the sabbath issue use John 20:19 to support that “the early church” changed from 7th day sabbath-keeping (Saturday) to Sunday, the first day of the week. Here is the “entire” verse.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

Question: Does that verse say the disciples were gathered to rest or worship?

Answer: No, it says they were gathered behind closed doors “for fear of the Jews.”

Aside: Thomas was not present at this gathering. Wonder why he didn’t feel a need to start meeting on the first day of the week? Once the disciples told Thomas they saw Jesus, they met again eight days later (Monday) and he got to see Jesus.

Then this verse is always referenced: Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Question: What was nailed to the cross? Could it have been those pesky ordinances? The sabbath was never contrary to them or against them was it?

But then they cite the 16th verse. [16] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Question: Those sabbath days (plural) there – are they the same ONE God set aside and made holy in Genesis above?

20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, [21] (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
[22]Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Question: Paul cites 3 specific examples of what was nailed to the cross here. Does verse 22 cite the commandments and doctrines of “men” or God?

One last point. Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Question: Could this possibly be referring to “the day of the LORD” rather than assuming it was the first day of the week? Could that be the voice of the archangel and the final trump?

I believe that God is the same yesterday (Genesis through Revelation), today (2002) and forever (from now on). Isn’t it interesting that the 4th commandment begins with “Remember?” Isn’t it interesting we still care to make it a part of the ten we hang on the wall? Isn’t it interesting God didn’t mention discontinuing something he sanctified and made holy on the seventh day of creation? Isn’t it sickening that the day God sanctified has become perhaps the most “worldly” day of the week for most folks? You may not agree, but it’s something to ponder, isn’t it?

A friend - Jim

P.S. I have an argument for "setting aside" on the first day of the week also but I have to run!

 

Well as you know there are "no texts' in scripture that tell us that the "Lord's day" is not the 7th day Sabbath of God. So - it is a pleasure to already be keeping Sabbath as the Lords Day as Christ stated it in Mark 2:28 "The Son of man is Lord of the Sabbath" - and as we find it in Isaiah 58 the "Holy day of the Lord".

My interest in Ignatius is to find out how soon AFTER the scripture was completed in the NT - did the term get switched to applying to 'weekday 1" instead of Sabbath.

And of course - the first problem is that we have no document from 110 AD which brings us back to historic "claims" that have all the trimings of the "Donation of Constantine" in some respects.

And so the "guessing" game goes something like this for Ignatius

The Donation of Constantine enjoyed a greater degree of clarity regarding it's origin - during the centuries it was accepted by the Popes.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 30, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]