Mary was probably a nice person???

Hi there Doubting Thomas,

You said:

Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ.

My answer is, no it doesn't put her on the same level as Jesus, It puts her above Him and that is worse!!!

My friends that I ask to pray for me are ALIVE! MARY is dead!! Big differance!

Tam

 

Deuteronomy 18:9-13

9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD , and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

Might not praying to Mary or other dead saint be the same as one who "consults the dead" as show above?

 

Oh really, in what way? How does asking one to pray to Christ put that one on the same level as (or higher than!) Christ? I'm not following that "logic".

Actually the big difference is not that Mary isn't alive, but that she (and the other glorified saints) are more alive than we are. Christ through his death and resurrection defeated death, so that now we are one family whether in heaven or earth (Eph 3:15). God is the Lord not of the dead but the living (Matt 22:32) and that includes those who are with Him in heaven--including Mary. When we worship God we do so in the presence of that glorious company of angels and saints who are worshipping God in Heaven (Hebrews 12:22-24).

 

That makes it sound like you think some people are more important to God than others. He loves us all the same. Only one is pure and that's Jesus.
I would like to know the Catholic definition of a saint.

 

quote By: Doubting Thomas
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Also, honoring Mary (and asking for her intercessions) is not putting her on the same level as Christ. (When you ask your friends to intercede for you, are you thereby putting them on Christ's level?) Honoring Mary and the saints is simply honoring those whom God has honored.
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Mary physically died and didn't shed her blood for forgivness of our sins, nor did she rise agian on the 3rd day and asscend into heaven to sit on the right hand side of the throne of God to interceed for us. There is only one who took the weight of sin thats in the world on His shoulders and by doing that (i.e. what I mentioned above that Mary didn't do) we can pray directly to God and cry "Abba Father", and Jesus interceeds for us. Wow! BTW, I'm not one that likes to mess around and waste time....I go directly to #1!
I don't see where its alright to pray to Mary or any saint? BTW, in Seventh Day Adventist doctrine she'd be sleeping until the rapture. What if the SDA has that part right? Then that totally blows your doctrine out of the water.

Music4Him

 

I never said she did any of these things. You're creating a straw man.

Of course, this is all true. Christ is our Saviour and we can pray directly to him (I never said we couldn't) But if by this you mean we can never ask anyone else to intercede for us, then I hope you are being consistent and never ask anyone to pray for you.

Well then I guess you never "mess around" and "waste time" by asking folks to pray for you. Nor if you are consistent do you ever pray for others who ask that of you. I can just hear you saying to : "Don't bother me with your prayer requests! Take it directly to God!".... (I sincerely hope that's not true)

I don't see where it says we can't. Again, "pray" here means to ask, and one can ask their intercessions just like one may ask intercession of our Christian family members on earth to pray for us. Again, the Church is one family on earth and in heaven (Eph 3:15). As our brothers, sisters, and fathers and mothers in Christ, why would the saints stop praying for us in Heaven when they are unhindered by earthly distractions?

I'm not too worried about the SDA's being right about that or about many other "doctrines".

 

Really? You mean Jesus prayed to someone who was dead to intercede with God on his behalf? Yeah, right.

I expect you mean that the apostles prayed to Jesus after his death. Well I have some good news for you. Jesus didn't stay dead nor is He dead now. He is very much alive and was quite alive in the human form when he left this earth. The apostles prayed to a living Saviour, not a dead one.

Let's go back to talking to dead folk. It seems Saul tried that once, it cost him his life. (I Sam. 28)

Is there really any difference between what Saul did then and what people do now when they pray to the dead? All you are doing is putting the medium out of a job.

 

Music4Him said......
quote:
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There is only one who took the weight of sin thats in the world on His shoulders and by doing that (i.e. what I mentioned above that Mary didn't do) we can pray directly to God and cry "Abba Father", and Jesus interceeds for us.
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Doubting Thomas replied.......
Of course, this is all true. Christ is our Saviour and we can pray directly to him (I never said we couldn't) But if by this you mean we can never ask anyone else to intercede for us, then I hope you are being consistent and never ask anyone to pray for you.
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I have asked people to pray "with" me. Thats a BIG difference! We still pray according to scripture.....
Mt 18:19 -
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Thats called prayer of agreement in our church and the ones doing the agreeing have to be alive and pray to the Lord.

quote:
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Wow! BTW, I'm not one that likes to mess around and waste time....I go directly to #1!
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Well then I guess you never "mess around" and "waste time" by asking folks to pray for you. Nor if you are consistent do you ever pray for others who ask that of you. I can just hear you saying to : "Don't bother me with your prayer requests! Take it directly to God!".... (I sincerely hope that's not true)

Refer back to the prayer of agreement. If I ask people to pray it will be people praying with me in agreement. Now if people pray for me individually during their own prayer time. (I also believe you can pray for people this way because Paul did.) I would hope they are praying in agreement as to what I'm praying and believing for and they will pray to the Lord and not to Mary.

quote:
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I don't see where its alright to pray to Mary or any saint?
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I don't see where it says we can't. Again, "pray" here means to ask, and one can ask their intercessions just like one may ask intercession of our Christian family members on earth to pray for us. Again, the Church is one family on earth and in heaven (Eph 3:15). As our brothers, sisters, and fathers and mothers in Christ, why would the saints stop praying for us in Heaven when they are unhindered by earthly distractions?

Eph. 3:15 is a prayer of realization so it should be read as a whole in its context.

Eph. 3:14-21
14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
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That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
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That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20
Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Now will you realize (Who) it is that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think? Who should we ask or go to in prayer? Who's name is above all names why would anyone knowing that they can ask Jesus directly, instead of asking or praying to Mary to ask Jesus to help us? You also said you don't see anywhere thats says we can't pray to Mary or any saint. If it was ok then you might have caught Paul, Peter, John or any of the others who prayed after the assention of Jesus. Jesus stated quite clearly when the disciples asked him to teach them how to pray.....(ie) Our Father which art in heaven.~Matthew 6:9~ Just think about it.


Music4Him

[ January 13, 2005, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: music4Him ]

 

I don't "pray" when I ask my friends and family to pray for me, because I can communicate directly with them; they're here on earth, like me.

But when we PRAY, we supposedly are contacting someone in the spiritual world. And the only one I should be contacting in that area is GOD himself. My ability to do that comes from my standing with God because of Jesus' having redeemed me.

 

Possibly a reference to Fox's Book of Martyrs.

#1 What is your position on the crimes of the RCC during the dark ages as it relates to the inquisition?

Was it a good thing - or a bad thing?

#2. Is it your claim that although they committed these crimes against humanity - they never would have comitted them regarding worship "at Mary's altars"??

#3. Are you aware that asking for the RC record of "confession" AT the time they were comitting the crime - is like asking that the mass murderer keep a log and write down "I am murdering this person now" for each crime RATHER than trusting the investigators that come along aftewards and discover the crime?

even so...


Consider the following news stories from the Vatican City.

In Christ,

Bob

 

We could persue this on a RC Crimes in the Dark Ages thread if you prefer.

Back to the topic of Mary --

The RCC says that she is sinless - the Bible does not.

The Bible says that Stephen was "full of grace" Acts 6:8 -- was he born sinless too?

No disciple is on record as praying to Mary or telling anyone else to pray to her or calling her "Mother of God" -- is that simply because it was not something they taught - or is it because they wanted it to be a secret or is it because it was not as important as other things like instructions about offerings and bringing a coat when you go some place or picking up some books along the way?

A number of people are mentioned as being raised from the dead - but not Mary. Not one word about the assumption of Mary or anything -- is that because the other incidents of resurrection in the NT were "more important" or is it because the RCC did not even think to invent that story until many centuries after Mary died?

In Christ,

Bob