1 Corinthians 12-14

Briguy · Jul 12, 2002

Hi DHK, Thanks for the post. I am always open to learning and will take your words seriously. I will say that your explanation of childish things seems to stretch the text quite a bit but like I said it is worth further prayer and investigation. Also, I always thought of Glass darkly as the fog you get when you look through a glass. Things look unclear when looking through liquid, and we see Christ that way now because of our limited understanding. You look IN a mirror not through a mirror, thus I like the thought of looking THROUGH a glass as the proper point Paul was making, still your words are not in vain and I will dwell upon them. Searching God's word and getting understanding is profitable and fun at the same time. Take care brother,

In Christ,
Brian

Naomi · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

When I was a child (an immature Christian), I spake as a child (i.e., I spoke with other tongues).

DHK, I see that we are in agreement with the corinthian church being reproved for their childish behavior.
However; the difficulty that i have with your explanation is, Paul was not forbidding them to speak in tongues, it was the context they were doing it in. They were out of order in the way they were using the gift. Thus, acting like immature christians.

I understood as a child--referring to the gift of prophecy.
I thought as a child--referring to the gift of knowledge or special revelation.

But when I became a man (more mature in the Lord), I put away childish things. That is, as I grew older in the Lord, I had no more need for these revelatory gifts. More and more of the Word was being written. These gifts were dying out. The people seeking these gifts were really immature Christians, as Paul refers to the Corinthians in 1Cor.3:1-3, that they were carnal and immature.

Paul never stated that they had no need for the gifts. For example:
14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Paul is instructing them to use the gifts in the proper, orderly way, so all can profit in the church.
DHK,
Can you show a scripture where Paul said to the church, do not use tongues at all?

Thanks DHK, I appreciate your input here.
Naomi
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DHK · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by Naomi:

Can you show a scripture where Paul said to the church, do not use tongues at all?
Click to expand...

Have you read the verses that I expounded for you? I could keep on going for you if that would be of benefit. Almost every verse in chapter 14 is a rebuke to the Corinthian believers not to speak in tongues. The one verse, "Forbid not to speak in tongues," should be interpreted "if you are living in the first century." We have shown quite adequately from an exposition of 1Cor.13:8-13 that tongues ceased when the Word of God was completed at the end of the first century. The gifts are not for today. Plus the fact that tongues every where in the Bible are real known languages. It is the least of all the gifts (1Cor.12:28). We are not told anywhere to seek this gift. We are not told anywhere how to speak in tongues, or how to get this gift. We are told that only some of the first century believers were given it, not all. You ignored what I posted. Even the one verse where Paul said, "That I would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand words in tongues (or without understanding). You fail to grasp his meaning. Don't speak in tongues. Prophecy, teaching, preaching, etc. are all better. How much better? 2000 TIMES BETTER THAN TONGUES!! That's a pretty bad slam on tongues. Don't speak in tongues was the message. Over and over was the message given in those verse not to speak in tongues. You have totally ignored it. For those that had the gift they could use it (only in the first century while the gift was operational) and only under the conditions that Paul laid out:

1. unbelieving Jews had to be present--it was a sign for them. (vs. 21,22)
2. no more than three could speak in tongues.
3. those three could not speak at the same time.
4. those three had to have an interpreter.
5. Women were absolutely forbidden to speak in tongues.
6. They had to be real tongues--real languages.
7. They had to edify and give understanding to the church, not the individual.
8. It was a real language to be interpreted in the church for the benefit of all in the church, not a prayer language.

The churches that speak in tongues today do not follow these guidelines. If they did tongues would cease right away. They ignore the plain teaching of 1Corinthians 14. They don't want to believe it because it would take away their mystical experience, an experience that they share with Mormons, Hindus, and Voodoo worshipers, an experience that Paul himself said was of a Satanic source in 1Cor.12:1-3.
DHK
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Naomi · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
---If you but hear the Word and do not obey the Word, James says you are like a man who gets up in the morning, looks in the mirror and then goes away, and can't remember whether or not he needed to shave or comb his hair, or wash the grime of his face. DHK

This is really good DHK, I agree with the concept here...

This is another way to look at it: This is taken from Ray Comfort:

Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments? All of us have sinned, and just as with civil law, you don't have to break ten laws to be a lawbreaker, so the Bible warns, "For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all."
A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day.

This may sound strange, but the worst thing you could do at this point of time is to try and clean up your lifestyle—you realize that you have sinned, so from now on you will keep the Ten Commandments, do good deeds, say the right things and think only pure thoughts. But should a judge let a murderer go because he says he will now live a good life? No, he's in debt to justice and therefore must be punished.

The Law of God is merely like a mirror—all a mirror does is show you the truth. If you see egg on your face, you don't try and wash yourself with the mirror, it's purpose should be to send you to water for cleansing. Neither should you try and wash yourself with the mirror of God's Law...that's not its purpose.

The sight in the mirror is not a pretty one, but if you don't face it and acknowledge that you are unclean, then all that "dirt" will be presented on Judgment Day as evidence of your guilt, and then it will be too late to be cleansed.

This is the context in which I understand the scriptures to say. The book of James is focusing more upon I. The essence of true religion
II. True faith in practice
III. True wisdom in practice

I don't think this in reference to the end times.
When we will be face to face with our Lord.

These are just my thoughts You made some excellent points.

[/B]

MEE · Jul 12, 2002

The churches that speak in tongues today do not follow these guidelines. If they did tongues would cease right away. They ignore the plain teaching of 1Corinthians 14. They don't want to believe it because it would take away their mystical experience, an experience that they share with Mormons, Hindus, and Voodoo worshipers, an experience that Paul himself said was of a Satanic source in 1Cor.12:1-3.
DHK

DHK, what god or gods do the Mormons, Hindus, and the Voodoo people worship? I find your accusation interesting.

MEE

[ July 12, 2002, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]

Naomi · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:

Almost every verse in chapter 14 is a rebuke to the Corinthian believers not to speak in tongues. The one verse, "Forbid not to speak in tongues," should be interpreted "if you are living in the first century."

DHK, You cannot add the Pauls words here. Why would Paul be rebuking them from speaking in tongues, if it were permitted (at the time) as you state?

They don't want to believe it because it would take away their mystical experience, an experience that they share with Mormons, Hindus, and Voodoo worshipers, an experience that Paul himself said was of a Satanic source in 1Cor.12:1-3.

That is why Paul said, No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Of course there are demonic sources that speak in a "tongue" satan is always trying to copy the real thing.

The churches that speak in tongues today do not follow these guidelines.

You are making a general statement based upon your experience. It is not always the case. Don't live by your experiences alone.

You ignored what I posted. Even the one verse where Paul said, "That I would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand words in tongues (or without understanding). You fail to grasp his meaning. Don't speak in tongues.

Paul prefaced his statement with this: 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Paul never said not to speak in tongues, example:

14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues
14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God.
14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,
14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two,
13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and
angels,
12:10 another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
I do not see this as a mystical experience, I see this as a spiritual experience. We are filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we should be having spiritual experiences. Our Faith should be established in the word of God, not in experiences alone. We should be firmly planted in the word, not being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Not living from one experience to the next. Our experiences change from day to day. Our foundation should never change. My faith is not built upon sinking sand, it is built upon solid ground. Precept upon precept. Yet if our foundation is only knowledge and no experience with Jesus, that is not balanced. We have to have both.

DHK · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by Naomi:

DHK, You cannot add the Pauls words here. Why would Paul be rebuking them from speaking in tongues, if it were permitted (at the time) as you state?

Click to expand...

I'm not adding Paul's words. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church existed in the first century. The gifts died out by the first century. He was writing to those believers. I am reminding you to take things in the context of when it is written. God spoke to Moses in a burning bush, but don't expect God to speak to you in a burning bush because he spoke to Moses in that way. This was God's way of communicating to a generation of people that lived before the Word of God was completed. As I have said many times already, that can be amply demonstrated by 1Cor.13:8-13.

"That is why Paul said, No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Of course there are demonic sources that speak in a "tongue" satan is always trying to copy the real thing."
---And you can't tell the difference. Tell me, when you speak in tongues what language do you speak, and who interprets that language for you?

The churches that speak in tongues today do not follow these guidelines.
"You are making a general statement based upon your experience. It is not always the case. Don't live by your experiences alone."
---That's not a generalized statement. It is a statement of fact, and you know it. Don't be so defensive. How many churches have unsaved Jews in them? How many churches ban their women from speaking in tongues?
You ignored what I posted. Even the one verse where Paul said, "That I would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand words in tongues (or without understanding). You fail to grasp his meaning. Don't speak in tongues.

"Paul prefaced his statement with this: 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Paul never said not to speak in tongues, example: 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God. 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, 12:10 another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: I do not see this as a mystical experience, I see this as a spiritual experience. We are filled with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we should be having spiritual experiences. Our Faith should be established in the word of God, not in experiences alone. We should be firmly planted in the word, not being tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. Not living from one experience to the next. Our experiences change from day to day. Our foundation should never change. My faith is not built upon sinking sand, it is built upon solid ground. Precept upon precept. Yet if our foundation is only knowledge and no experience with Jesus, that is not balanced. We have to have both."

---I have explained all these verses Naomi. But you refuse to believe.
Verse 18: I thank my God that I speak with tongues (languages) more than ye all. First that is quite a rebuke to the childish Corinthians. He was thankful that it was he and not them that spoke in tongues. They were misusing the gift. Now get a hold of this. Where and when would have Paul used this gift? What was the gift for? Read 1Cor.14:21,22, and get a good understanding of those two verses. Verse 21 teaches that God would speak to the nation of Israel using a sign (tongues), and yet they would not believe (the gospel). It goes on to say, therefore, that tongues are a sign for the unbeliever. The two verses are connected. Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew. Paul went on three missionary journeys. Remember also what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Devout Jews from every nation came to Jerusalem. Paul, as his custom was, entered into the synagogue, and there preached, in which ever country he was. It was in those synagogues that he probably used the gift of tongues, for they were a sign to the unbelieving Jews. When the Jews heard the message of salvation, accompanied by the sign of tongues, that is the message spoken in their mother tongue, not just in Hebrew or Greek, they were more likely to be receptive to the plan of salvation and believe. But many hardened their hearts and did not believe anyway, just as Isaiah had prophesied. Thus the destruction of Jerusalem came in 70 A.D. This verse does not condone the speaking of tongues in the church of Corinth. That is not what it is saying.

"14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
--As I mentioned, if you are living in the first century when the gift was operational. It is not operational today. But first and foremost he says to covet or seek after prophesy not tongues. Why make tongues more important??

"14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God."
--This again is a rebuke. Speaking in tongues was for the church, not to be used selfishly. All the gifts of the Spirit were to be used for the edification of the church. That was the entire emphasis of these chapters, and especially of chapter 14. If it doesn't edify the church don't use it. If your only speaking to God, don't use it. It is a useless gift if it is not edifying the church; that's what the purpose was. Think of it this way: Is it God that needs to be edified??

"14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth,"
--So what if your spirit prays. Big deal!! My spirit prays too, whether or not someone speaks in another language. Why did you pull this Scripture out of its context and omit the last part--BUT MY UNDERSTANDING IS FRUITLESS. (1Cor.14:14). Obviously the whole point of the verse was not to speak in tongues because there was no understanding and not profit to it.

"14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two,"
---And your comment on this verse is?? That it is never followed--I agree.

"13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels,"
---Surely you jest, Naomi. Have you read the context here also?
Did Paul give his body to be burned? Did he give all that he had to feed the poor? Did he really understand all mysteries, and all knowledge? Is this what he is claiming here. When did he give his body to be burned? The key word is "though," or "if." They are statements of conjecture or hypothetical statements. If I could do all of these things and still have not love I am nothing. That is what he was saying. Not for one second did he say that he spoke in tongues, just as he did not say he gave his body to be burned. Furthermore what was the tongue of an angel? Do you know? How did Gabriel communicate with Joseph, with Mary? How did the two angels communicate with Lot? Did they speak in some kind of heavenly language that you think you might have?

"12:10 another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:"
--I remember explaining this also to you. "Diverse" simply means "kinds," and tongues means languages. Different kinds of languages, that's what they spoke in. What language do you speak in? How come know charismatic will answer me on that? Is it Cree, Cherokee, Hindii, Zulu, Maori? What language do you speak in, and how do you know? Who interprets for you, and how does he know what he is interpreting is correct? How do you know it is correct? How do you know you are not praising Satan instead of God? How do you know Naomi?
DHK

Naomi · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:

I'm not adding Paul's words. Paul was writing to the Corinthian church existed in the first century. The gifts died out by the first century. He was writing to those believers.

I asked you why Paul would have to rebuke the church in the first century for using tongues if it was okay to speak in tongues at this time?

I am reminding you to take things in the context of when it is written. God spoke to Moses in a burning bush, but don't expect God to speak to you in a burning bush because he spoke to Moses in that way. This was God's way of communicating to a generation of people that lived before the Word of God was completed. As I have said many times already, that can be amply demonstrated by 1Cor.13:8-13.

I know what you wrote here. I disagree with your interpretation.

"That is why Paul said, No man can say Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Of course there are demonic sources that speak in a "tongue" satan is always trying to copy the real thing."
---And you can't tell the difference. Tell me, when you speak in tongues what language do you speak, and who interprets that language for you?

14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. My Spirit is edified,
14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. ( My Spirit is Praying unto God ) My understanding in the natural (intellect) is not of benefit. Which would coincide with 2 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
To use our human intellect alone we would be like this: 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The churches that speak in tongues today do not follow these guidelines.
"You are making a general statement based upon your experience. It is not always the case. Don't live by your experiences alone."
---That's not a generalized statement. It is a statement of fact, and you know it. Don't be so defensive. How many churches have unsaved Jews in them? How many churches ban their women from speaking in tongues?

LOL, I am not being defensive here at all. I am stating the fact that you have not been in every church that speaks in tongues. How many churches have unsaved Jew's in them? LOL, Paul stated, unbeliever's, not unsaved Jew's. Speaking in tongues in a church service would be the gift of tongues operating, It would come from The Holy Spirit, not man, not woman, but from God.
You ignored what I posted. Even the one verse where Paul said, "That I would rather speak five words with understanding than ten thousand words in tongues (or without understanding). You fail to grasp his meaning. Don't speak in tongues.

I copied these verses down in order to show you that Paul was not telling them not to speak in tongues. He was setting order in the church.

Verse 18: I thank my God that I speak with tongues (languages) more than ye all. First that is quite a rebuke to the childish Corinthians. He was thankful that it was he and not them that spoke in tongues. They were misusing the gift. Now get a hold of this. Where and when would have Paul used this gift? What was the gift for? Read 1Cor.14:21,22, and get a good understanding of those two verses. Verse 21 teaches that God would speak to the nation of Israel using a sign (tongues), and yet they would not believe (the gospel). It goes on to say, therefore, that tongues are a sign for the unbeliever. The two verses are connected. Tongues are a sign for the unbelieving Jew. Paul went on three missionary journeys. Remember also what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Devout Jews from every nation came to Jerusalem. Paul, as his custom was, entered into the synagogue, and there preached, in which ever country he was. It was in those synagogues that he probably used the gift of tongues, for they were a sign to the unbelieving Jews. When the Jews heard the message of salvation, accompanied by the sign of tongues, that is the message spoken in their mother tongue, not just in Hebrew or Greek, they were more likely to be receptive to the plan of salvation and believe.

Signs to only the unbelieving Jew's? Acts:10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

But many hardened their hearts and did not believe anyway, just as Isaiah had prophesied. Thus the destruction of Jerusalem came in 70 A.D. This verse does not condone the speaking of tongues in the church of Corinth. That is not what it is saying.

"14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."
--As I mentioned, if you are living in the first century when the gift was operational.

DHK, You stated: You fail to grasp his meaning. Don't speak in tongues.
Then you state:--As I mentioned, if you are living in the first century when the gift was operational.
If it was okay, Paul was not rebuking them for using the gift of tongues, but how they were using this gift.

It is not operational today. But first and foremost he says to covet or seek after prophesy not tongues. Why make tongues more important??

I am not making tongues more important, I am saying it has not ceased.

"13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels,"
---Surely you jest, Naomi. Have you read the context here also?
Did Paul give his body to be burned? Did he give all that he had to feed the poor? Did he really understand all mysteries, and all knowledge? Is this what he is claiming here. When did he give his body to be burned? The key word is "though," or "if." They are statements of conjecture or hypothetical statements. If I could do all of these things and still have not love I am nothing. That is what he was saying. Not for one second did he say that he spoke in tongues, just as he did not say he gave his body to be burned. Furthermore what was the tongue of an angel? Do you know? How did Gabriel communicate with Joseph, with Mary? How did the two angels communicate with Lot? Did they speak in some kind of heavenly language that you think you might have?

22:1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you. 22:2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence:

In tongues of man...

and of Angels:
19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Scripture (KJV) seems to make a distinction about languages and tongues (the gift)

How do you know you are not praising Satan instead of God? How do you know Naomi?
DHK

Scripture tells me.....12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

God Bless!

DHK · Jul 12, 2002

Originally posted by Naomi:
How do you know you are not praising Satan instead of God? How do you know Naomi?
DHK

Scripture tells me.....12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

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That's the whole point. If your speaking in a language that you don't understand, (especially if its todays gibberish) then you don't know if you are praising God or Satan. You don't understand yourself. You may very well be cursing God by a false spirit imitating the Holy Spirit. You just don't know.
DHK

Naomi · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:
You may very well be cursing God by a false spirit imitating the Holy Spirit. You just don't know.

DHK,
I have no problem with you not believing tongues are for today. The only problem I encounter here, is that you are accusing me of having a false spirit. I do not accuse you of this. I embrace you, (even though we disagree on this) as being a brother in the Lord. Tongues are not a big issue, in light of salvation. I assure you that I do not have a false spirit. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. What is very sad, is that you Judge any Charasmatic, as having a false spirit, because they speak in tongues, and are led by their "experiences" as opposed to being rooted and grounded in the word. This is your assertation of anyone who believes in the gifts. This is what is sad in the church world. We are so divided in the church (at large) due to a mis-understanding of one another, and thus, become quick to pass judgements upon each other. Please do not allow the accuser of the brethren to blind us to what the main message of Christ is. If you disagree with someone doctrinally, that is okay. We are all seeing through a glass dimly. I know that I have not attained to perfection. I still see in part.
Speaking in tongues is not the most important gift. The most important one is love. Agape Love.
I guess we have come to the end of this discussion. I hope we can keep learning from one another, and praying for one another. In the end, Jesus will be Glorifird. We stand or fall in the presense of our Savior, and when we seek Him with all our heart, mind and soul, He will be able to make us stand.
Thank you for contributing to this discussion. I appreciate your input, and the study you have put into this.
Naomi

DHK · Jul 13, 2002

Naomi,
Consider the church at Corinth for a moment.

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.
11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
---This was the beginning of the church. Paul himself spent one and a half years among them preaching and teaching the gospel, discipling them, baptizing them, and organizing them into a church. He led them to the Lord. He taught them. And when he was ready to leave he appointed Apollos to be the pastor of the church. Shortly thereafter, the church members wrote to Paul having many questions, and the church itself had many problems. In 1Cor.7:1, Paul says, "Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me:" indicating that they had wrote him a letter concerning their problems.

Naomi, I am not questioning your salvation. I, like Paul, am questioning the source of the speaking in tongues. Remember Paul was writing to those that he himself had won to the Lord. He knew these people well. He also knew of their pagan background, and their propensity to give in to their carnal nature. Hence he writes:

12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
---Obviously some in the church, that were brethren, were speaking in so-called tongues by another spirit. They were influenced by another spirit. That is not necessarily to say that they were possessed, or even unsaved. The source of their speaking in tongues was not from the Holy Spirit; it was from another spirit. He was writing to Christians.
DHK

DHK · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by MEE:
DHK, what god or gods do the Mormons, Hindus, and the Voodoo people worship? I find your accusation interesting.
MEE
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you, MEE, should ask this question. It demonstrates the shallowness of the charismatic theology, and the depth of knowledge they have of the God of the Bible.

Mormons do not believe in the God of the Bible, but rather the god of Joseph Smith, and his demon Moroni. They believe the lie of Satan to Eve that you shall be as gods. Their basic theology can be summed up in this: As God was, man is; As God is, man will become. In other words God was once a man, and all good mormons will become gods. That is not Christianity, and does not even begin to describe the God of Christianity, since the God of the Bible is One God, and not many.

Hindus are polytheistic, believing in many different gods. They are idol worshipers. They believe in reincarnation. They worship the cow. How many pages do you want me to spend on this? Their Holy Books are the Vedas and not the Bible. Do you honestly think that they are worshiping the same God as we, and that their speaking in tongues would be of the Holy Spirit?

Voo-doo worshippers are worshippers of false gods and evil spirits. Often through the power of demons and demon possession they exercise control over the people. For more information see:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/voodoo.htm

When worshippers of false gods of false religions say that they speak in tongues, that they have the same gift you have, does it not make you wonder what the source of your gift is?
DHK

GrannyGumbo · Jul 13, 2002

Tongues are not a big issue, in light of salvation.[Naomi]

"Oh but you see, that's just it...In this area where I live, there are literally hundreds, perhaps thousands of "tongue-talkers" and every single one of them hold to the idea that 'unless you've spoken in tongues, you do NOT have the Holy Ghost'! Yet, we know the Scriptures clearly tell us that IF YOU DON'T have the Spirit of Christ, then you are NONE of His(in other words, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit you are not saved because He gives you that at the MOMENT you ARE saved).

MEE · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
DHK, what god or gods do the Mormons, Hindus, and the Voodoo people worship? I find your accusation interesting.
MEE
Click to expand...

I find it interesting that you, MEE, should ask this question. It demonstrates the shallowness of the charismatic theology, and the depth of knowledge they have of the God of the Bible.

DHK, let's first clear something up! I am "Apostolic Pentecostal." Most charismatics are of the Trinity faith. I am of the Oneness faith.

When worshippers of false gods of false religions say that they speak in tongues, that they have
the same gift you have, does it not make you wonder what the source of your gift is?
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]No, I don't question it because the three false religions that you mentioned DO NOT worship the same God that I do. Their "spirits" are of another nature. It certainly doesn't come from my God.

The Spirit that I have came from the God of the Universe.

Luke 11:13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Acts 2:2) And suddenly there came a sound from HEAVEN...... (notice where the Spirit came from?)

Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, an began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.

DHK, try as you may, but the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, IS NOT of Satan!

MEE

DHK · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by MEE:

No, I don't question it because the three false religions that you mentioned DO NOT worship the same God that I do. Their "spirits" are of another nature. It certainly doesn't come from my God.

The Spirit that I have came from the God of the Universe.

Luke 11:13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Acts 2:2) And suddenly there came a sound from HEAVEN...... (notice where the Spirit came from?)

Acts 2:4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, an began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance.

DHK, try as you may, but the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, IS NOT of Satan!
Click to expand...

First, MEE, a true believer receives "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" when he is born again, that is when he is saved, not when he is baptized in water, not when he speaks in tongues, but when he by faith puts his trust in Jesus Christ as Lord. But for one who can only take his theology from one book of the Bible you would not understand that.
Secondly, study Scripture as you may and you will never find that the Holy Spirit baptizes, not even once. Christ always baptizes (and/or his disciples), but never the Holy Spirit. Your concept of the Holy Spirit baptism is a false one.
Thirdly, you say that the Spirit that you have comes from the God of the universe. So do all of the other religions. You have no way of differentiating between a counterfeit false spirit and what you say is the Holy Spirit. When I ask you, How do you know it is not a false spirit, you really have no valid answer, except to say, well I know that God would not give me a bad gift. Well guess what? Satan would. And don't think that for one moment he would never answer your prayers. Especially when your prayers are theologically wrong and your too stubborn and filled with pride to see the truth that has been pointed out to you repeatedly.
One cause of continuance in tongues after being shown the truth: pride and rebellion.

1Sam.15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee

What happened on the Day of Pentecost was a one time event never to be repeated again in history. You try to claim part of that event, without claiming the rest. When you speak in tongues MEE, where is the cloven tongues of fire hanging over your head? Where is the mighty rushing wind every time you speak in tongues. Does every man that is around you hear in their own language the tongue that you are speaking. You are out of order MEE. You have a counterfeit, not the real thing.
DHK
Click to expand...

GrannyGumbo · Jul 13, 2002

I don't question it because the three false religions that you mentioned DO NOT worship the same God that I do. Their "spirits" are of another nature. It certainly doesn't come from my God.[MEE]

"Then, pray tell, how do YOU explain the fact that I can play a tape of a Mormon tongue-talker along-side this tongue-talking (oneness)'Bishop' over behind my house & they're nearly identical???

[And he sounds just like the new one where my son is now going---but then the new one did spin-off from 'said bishop's' church]!

[ July 13, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: GrannyGumbo ]

MEE · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by DHK:

What happened on the Day of Pentecost was a one time event never to be repeated again in history. You try to claim part of that event, without claiming the rest. When you speak in tongues MEE, where is the cloven tongues of fire hanging over your head? Where is the mighty rushing wind every time you speak in tongues. Does every man that is around you hear in their own language the tongue that you are speaking. You are out of order MEE.
You have a counterfeit, not the real thing.
DHK[/QB]
Click to expand...

So you are telling me that the Spirit of God, being poured out on the NT Church, for the first time, according to the prophet Joel (2:28) was just for the 120 in that upper room? That the out pouring Of God's Spirit is not for us today? I don't think so DHK!

Peter said, "For the promise (the Spirit of God) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the
Lord our God shall call.

It says that there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire...... Surley you
don't think that there was fire on top of their heads.

Again, look as what it says! And suddenly there came a sound from heaven AS DHK, ...as of a rushing mighty wind,........... not an actual wind was blowing in the upper room.

It's plain to see that what has been posted, on this forum, that you don't see the difference between being baptized in the Spirit, Acts 2:4 and the "gift of tongues" in 1 Cor.

I'm not out of order and believe me, I do
have the real thing.

For you to tell me that the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues has ceased, is so sad DHK. You don't know what you are missing. Or, do you? I have wondered, if at some time or other, if you have
spoke in tongues and maybe that is why you fight it so much. Maybe not wanting to admit to yourself that you have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. Just my thought!

Mee

[ July 13, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: MEE ]

MEE · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
[QB]I don't question it because the three false religions that you mentioned DO NOT worship the same God that I do. Their "spirits" are of another nature. It certainly doesn't come from my God.[MEE]

"Then, pray tell, how do YOU explain the fact that I can play a tape of a Mormon tongue-talker along-side this tongue-talking (oneness)'Bishop' over behind my house & they're nearly identical???

Notice what you said, "Nearly identical." Keep in mind that Mormons *don't* worship the Lord! So any spirit that they may have could be of anything.

MEE
Click to expand...

GrannyGumbo · Jul 13, 2002

For you to tell me that the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues has ceased, is so sad DHK. You don't know what you are missing. Or, do you? I have wondered, if at some time or other, if you have
spoke in tongues and maybe that is why you fight it so much. Maybe not wanting to admit to yourself that you have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. Just my thought![MEE]

"Ah, my dear, listen to yourself! Are you now saying that if one has the 'gift' to "speak in tongues" that he can "lose" this gift??? Which, of course, means the Holy Spirit would leave too? My my. Oh what a tangled web we weave!

MEE · Jul 13, 2002

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
For you to tell me that the baptism of the Holy Ghost, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues has ceased, is so sad DHK. You don't know what you are missing. Or, do you? I have wondered, if at some time or other, if you have
spoke in tongues and maybe that is why you fight it so much. Maybe not wanting to admit to yourself that you have blasphemed against the Holy Ghost. Just my thought![MEE]

"Ah, my dear, listen to yourself! Are you now saying that if one has the 'gift' to "speak in tongues" that he can "lose" this gift??? Which,
of course, means the Holy Spirit would leave too? My my. Oh what a tangled web we weave!
Click to expand...

No, God wouldn't leave anyone, but one can leave God. BTW, there is no forgivness for blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.

MEE

1 Corinthians 12-14

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