Salvation

Interestingly enough if Baptist believe that someone devoid of the fruit of the Spirit is most likely not saved, then how is that different than saying works must be involved?

Perhaps it does not play a role in someones initial response to entering the family of God, but surely we are told it is by our works we will be judged, and that faith worketh in love.

No one here claims any certian number of works are required to enter heaven, just that there must be a change in a Christians life- from the works of the flesh to that of the Spirit. Doesn't that make it sortof a moot point to say that works are not involved at all in our eternal destiny?

 

Yelsew's question on page one was 'What is salvation?'

Salvation is knowing that Christ is real and in our hearts and lives. The Apostle Paul has said, 'Christ in you the hope of glory.' [Colossians 1:b,c] No one can have Christ in their heart or life without also having the Father and the Holy Spirit. I John 3:9 tells us that the Holy Spirit is not a part time Tenant depending on if we watch our 'P's and Q's' but He rather comes to stay in our lives forever. The word, 'commit' in most Bibles is not a correct usage of this verse. In fact the Greek word is 'poieo' and is in the present active tense. It really means that anyone who who is indwelled by the Lord God cannot practice sinning, because the Holy Sprit, and as John says it, 'His seed remains in him, and he cannot practice sinning any longer. I say it most respectfully, but the Holy Spirit is not a beggar who passes through the neighborhood every three months. This gives us some consolation in the face of our tendency toward sin. The great Greek scholar, Dr. Kenneth S. Wuest in his Greek exposition of the Word says by way of translation, 'Everyone who has been born out of God, with the present result that he is a born-one (of God), does not habitually do sin, because His seed remains in him. And he is not able to habitually sin, because out of God he has been born with the present result that he is a born-one (of God).

No true Christian can enjoy sin after he or she comes into the faith. No real Christian can make a practice of sinning, and if they try to presume on His wonderful grace and to walk this route, God will chasten them as sons and daughters and not illigitimate children. [Hebrews 12:5-14]

 

The story of the talents illustrates this best. Each man is responsible for producing from what he is given, hence the one with 10 made 10 more. The one with 5 who made 5 more was given the same praise and put in charge of greater things. But the one who had one and buried it in the ground was deemed wicked. He did nothing even though he started out with the gift. Had he just put it in the bank and collected interest off of it his master would have been happy. Further, our works are not our works, but God's works. Note each of first two in the above story gave back what he was given plus what he earned. We cannot boast of them because it is his grace working in us:


Ephesians 3:20
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

The works of a Christian are valuable. I find that it is an insult to God when the verse that says "your works are as filthy rags" is applied to the Christian's works. For God produces 30,60, or 100 fold in the Christian. Our works are not our own but his.

They do not save us for to be of value we must be already in him. Yet they are like excercise for the spiritual body as the Eucharist and the scriptures are food for the spiritual body.

Blessings

Now I need to go away for the day.

[ July 03, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Quite simply AdoptedDaughter, If you have faith and do not do the works of the faith, who knows you have faith? What are the works of the faith? Among them is "go, make disciples...", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...", "feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless", etc.

There are no works required of God from man for salvation! It is Faith alone that brings salvation. Can one be saved and do no works? Theoretically I suppose one can, but I've never personally witnessed that happen. Everyone whom I've witnessed, who came to faith in Jesus the Christ, has been somewhat eager to get about doing the works of the faith. Even so, I have witnessed some fall away from their faith for various reasons simply because they were not the "proper ground" for faith to continue unto the harvest.

 

I've never (nor have I ever seen anyone) denied that our salavation is dependant upon our faith in Jesus Christ. It is people like you who try to tell us that we believe in salvation by works. </font>[/QUOTE]Excuse me? You have me confused with another. If you believe that you must do works of anykind to be justified or sanctified, then it is you who accuses you and not me.

 

As I said.

 

Not to appear to pick on you Yelsew, but I would sincerely like to better understand what you are saying. I mean no disrespect and will try not to make any assumptions.

So, To AD's request of you to explain the scripture: "Faith without works is dead". You responded with:

So are we to understand that the mere correlation between works and faith as they pertain to the Christian is for the exclusive purpose of showcasing the beleiver as one who has faith? Showing them in a good light. Is it really important for one through their works to appear to have faith. So important in fact that without these works for appearance's sake that one's faith is dead? Seems like a pretty hefty charge for such a supposed inconsequential matter.

What if the one who performs these good works is a buddhist or an athiest? Would we have to know that the good works they might perform could very well showcase their faith, but we had better know their brand of faith so as not to inappropriately attribute their good works to their non-Christian faith?

You further comment:

First, could you show me anywhere in the Bible it says that faith alone brings salvation or for that matter any place the words Faith and Alone are coupled together. There's but one place, to answer my own question and it reads: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone " James 2v24.
And that to me says the opposite of what you said. Yelsew says "Faith Alone", the Bible says "not by faith alone". Please note that saying "not by Faith alone is not the equivalent of saying "by works".

continuing you say:

How about works that are contrary to a Christian disposition, like murder and what if these murderers have the faith aspect and still commit murder? And what kind of ones being saved have you witnessed.
[QUOTE Everyone whom I've witnessed, who came to faith in Jesus the Christ, has been somewhat eager to get about doing the works of the faith. Even so, I have witnessed some fall away from their faith for various reasons simply because they were not the "proper ground" for faith to continue unto the harvest. ] [/QUOTE]

Would these be people who changed their beleifs or people who did things contrary to the faith? (by the way isn't that for God to decide) And how does the scripture about: Not all those who call the Lord, Lord will be saved apply? These ones refer to the Lord as Lord yet what is lacking that they will not receive salvation?

My point is that I think you do the actual correlation between faith and works a disservice. To me it appears that their is a stronger correlation between works and faith. (Please remember Catholics do not attribute merit to the works apart from the merit Christ obtained through his Passion and death on the Cross)
Again no disrespect intended, just an honest inquiry as to your comments.

Thanks,
Steve

 

Stephen III, The questions to be answered are:

Is it faith that saves?
or,
Is it works that saves?

Do works bring forth Faith?
or,
Does faith bring forth good works?

Anyone can do "good" works with or without faith!

Faith where there are no works is dead faith in the same manner that a body without spirit is a dead body.

 

Correct, so then by saying this, you must agree that there is more to being a Christian than just saying a little *sinners* prayer? </font>[/QUOTE]The instant one believes that Jesus is one's savior, one is Christian, and there is no more to being Christian than believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world. Everything else that follows belief is behavior associated with being.

It is this being by which one is saved, and not the behaving!

 

Ignorance of the Gospel
“1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:1-12).

The period of Church history commonly known as the Reformation began around 1500 A.D. A great number of reforms in church polity and doctrine took place during the 250 years of this period of history. Once again the Scriptures were looked to as the sole source of truth and practice (sola Scriptura). Martin Luther led the reformers in this area and a return to justification through faith alone (sola fide).
However, in most cases the reformation stopped at these two mile markers. Reformed theology continued conferring grace through the sacraments in ritual (water) baptism and through the Eucharist (the Lord’s Supper). Although the terminology of Reformed Theology states that man is saved by grace through faith alone, what that means to them is that faith in Christ is expressed by obedience to water baptism and the Eucharist. It is through these two mediums the grace of God is conferred to the believing participant. Since water baptism and the Eucharist were administered only through the Church, this kept the populace dependant upon the church for salvation and for forgiveness of sin.
Two other truths were necessary before the gospel could be fully recovered. Salvation was also by grace alone (sola gratia) through faith alone in Christ alone (sola Christus). These last two areas (grace alone and Christ alone) are the subject matter of the epistle of Galatians. Grace alone meant salvation was completely a gift of God apart from any religious ritual or ceremony. These religious rituals or ceremonies are referred to by the word “works” or by the words “works of the law” (these terms usually refer to religious rituals, ritualism, or good deeds, moralism) in Paul’s epistles.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work” (Romans 11:6).

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith” (Galatians 3:2)?

It was around 60 A.D., while Paul was ministering at Corinth for the 3rd time, that God brought the problem at Galatia to his attention. God saw this perversion of the gospel as so contaminating that the inspired epistle to Galatia was given to correct it. Salvation was to be by grace alone through faith alone in the finished work of Christ alone and completely outside of religious ritual or ceremony.
I. The focus of the epistle to Galatia is salvation absolutely of grace through a faith absolutely in Christ and His finished work at Calvary. Anything else is “another” (or a false) gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).

A. This epistle confronts the heresy of every false gospel by this radical, but simple truth of the true gospel.
B. When this epistle arrived at Galatia, its doctrine was viewed as so radical it split the Church.
C. When we read the epistle to Galatia and see the dogmatic way in which God speaks to this issue, you would think it would never continue.

1. This is not some unimportant or insignificant point of doctrine.
2. Read Galatians 5:4. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” The one point of truth was so important that God says those who accept any gospel other then salvation absolutely of grace through faith absolutely in Christ and His finished work at Calvary were not saved.
3. Satan was introducing another twist, another perversion, another subtle lie similar to the lie he told Eve in the Garden of Eden.

“6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth (Galatians 5:6-7)?

4. The question was rhetorical. The lie misdirected faith from the finished propitiatory work of Christ to faith in religious works, ritual and ceremony.
5. Any degree of misdirected faith would pervert the gospel of grace.

“A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” (Galatians 5:9).

6. A very large portion of Christianity continues to follow this lie.

D. Where do you suppose those who left the First Baptist Church of Galatia went? They went and formed the First Reformed Church of Galatia.
E. The message of the epistle to Galatia is a simple message with a serious and all encompassing warning: if anyone professes to be saved by faith in Christ, but is trusting in any form of religious works, ceremony or ritual as a means of the conference of grace they have trusted in a gospel which is “another gospel” and that is powerless to save anyone.
F. Faith is an empty hand reaching out to receive God’s gift of grace. It must reach out directly to Christ. It must be in Christ alone.

II. This perversion of the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone came from a group of Judaizers who brought Old Covenant practices and incorporated them with New Covenant beliefs.

A. Read Galatians 2:11-14. A similar group had attempted to control the Church at Antioch.

“11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews” (Galatians 2:11-14)?

1. These Christian Judaizers wielded enormous influence and social pressure (v 12).
2. It had gotten so bad that the Apostle Peter had compromised and allowed those teaching this perverted gospel to co-exist in the Church at Antioch in order to avoid a Church split.
3. Barnabas followed Peter’s leadership (or lack of it) and “was carried away with their dissimulation” (Greek: hupokrisis {hoop-ok'-ree-sis} meaning the acting of a stage player or hypocrisy).
B. Due to Peter’s compromise, this perverted gospel had become socially and culturally accepted. It only had one problem.

1. No matter the quality or quantity of a person’s faith in this perverted gospel, it was absolutely powerless to save anyone.
2. Only the true gospel message of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone was intrinsic with the power of God for regeneration.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16).

III. The second problem of a perverted gospel (Galatians 3:1-2). What is the basis of regeneration?

A. Regeneration is what happens when a person is saved by receiving God’s gift of grace (the Holy Spirit)through faith alone in Christ alone.

“1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith” (Galatians 3:1-2)?

B. Regeneration (receiving the “breathe of life, i.e., the indwelling Holy Spirit)is salvation.
C. Regeneration refers to all the things the Holy Spirit does once a person places faith absolutely in Christ and His finished work. There are five major works of the Holy Spirit the instant a person places faith in Christ alone.

1. The believer is born again and forever made a part of the new creation and the family of God as children of God (John 3:7 and 2 Corinthians 2:17).
2. The believer is indwelled by the Holy Spirit whereby He empowers the believer when the believer co-operatively yields his life to the Spirit’s control (John 14:16-20).
3. The believer is baptized with the Holy Spirit into the “body of Christ” and made one with Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).
4. The believer is sealed with the Spirit of God, securing him and preserving him until the final day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).
5. The believer is anointed with the Holy Spirit Who supernaturally empowers the believer’s talents to be used for God’s glory.

B. The second perversion of the gospel said the believer received all of this by “the works of the law.”

1. In other words, this perversion taught that regeneration came through observance of some religious ritual or ceremony such as circumcision.
2. Later, the ritual of circumcision was replaced with the ritual of water baptism as the means of regeneration. This became known as baptismal regeneration.

“Sacrament of Baptism: The sacrament in which, by pouring water upon a person or immersing him in water, and using the words, ‘I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,’ the one baptized is cleansed of original sin and {in the case of one who has reached the age of reason} of particular sin; he is incorporated into Christ and made a member of His Body the Church; he is infused with sanctifying grace and receives the theological virtues of faith, hope and charity, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit; and this enables him to receive the other sacraments effectively.” (Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia by Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas and 39 contributing Roman Catholic scholars).


The simple test of the true gospel is measured by a trinity of truths. Is salvation received as a gift by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone? Anything else is “another gospel.” If the gospel you are trusting in for your salvation includes any religious ritual or ceremony as the means of receiving God’s gift of grace it is “another gospel” and is powerless to save you because your faith is not in Christ alone.

1. If you believe your good works must outweigh the bad things you have done, your hope of salvation fails the test because your faith is not in Christ alone.
2. If you believe you can be saved, but can lose your salvation because of some sin you commit or something you fail to do, your hope of salvation fails the test because your faith is not in Christ alone.

Anything besides salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the finished Cross work of Christ alone nullifies the power of the gospel to save, because it thwarts the efficacy of God’s grace. Make sure the gospel you preach, and the gospel you measure the genuineness of a person’s salvation by, is the true gospel.

“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (Galatians 2:21).

 

It happened:

Luke 23

39One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

The danger in believing in works salvation is repeated by Paul time and time again. Here's a couple of example:

Romans 9

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Ephesians 2

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

There is general agreement among non-Catholics that acceptance of the Gospel is expressed "publically" through the "symbols" of water baptism and participation in the Lord's supper.

Those outward "symbols" are not what "Salvation by Grace through faith in Christ" [/b]Means[/b] to non-Catholics however.

At "best" that statement would be Protestantism as seen through a Roman Catholic "lense".

Most non-Catholics do not view "Baptism as the Medium through which God's grace is conferred". RATHER the "means" for non-Catholics is unniversally - the Holy Spirit (John 3) and the ministry of Christ (Hebrews 9-10, Romans 5:15)

Again this is the Catholic "lense". The non-RC view is that God Himself "Convicts the World of Sin and righteousness and judment" John 16,

God Himself "Draws ALL men unto Him" John 12:32.

God Himself works on the heart and converts it (John 3 and Romans 2 - ending).

God Himself is the one that "Stands at the door and knocks" Rev 3:20.

The Church - represents ministers of the Gospel that cooperate with Christ - but do not take the place of Christ.

As Acts 10 shows - where the Holy Spirit is poured out BEFORE baptism and BEFORE the Lord's Table is celebrated - it is the Spirit of God working directly on the heart - that is the "medium" or the "means" of conveying the grace of God.

I appreciate your pointing out the differences between these Catholic sources and what non-Catholics view as "Salvation by Grace through Faith".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Dr. Ketchum,

You wrote, "Grace alone meant salvation was completely a gift of God apart from any religious ritual or ceremony. These religious rituals or ceremonies are referred to by the word “works” or by the words “works of the law” (these terms usually refer to religious rituals, ritualism, or good deeds, moralism) in Paul’s epistles."

The term ergon nomou, which Paul employs, is familiar in modern preaching as "works of the law", but it would be more properly translated in context as works of Torah since the law (nomos) Paul is everywhere speaking of in Romans and Galatians is the Mosaic Law.

The translation of ergon nomou as "works of Torah" is confirmed by archaeological-lexical evidence because it also appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls, the writings of the first-century Qumran community in Israel. It appears in a famous document known as MMT, which served as the Constitution or Declaration of Independence for the Qumran community. This document, whose name translates as "Some Pertinent Works of Torah," is focused on certain disputed interpretations of specific Mosaic regulations, and it reveals an enormous preoccupation on the part of first century Jews with works of Torah.

The term "works of Torah" thus predates Paul and is a term he picked up from the Jewish vocabulary of his day (which is why he is having to dispute with people over it in Romans and Galatians, because they were already using the term).

You're making the assumption that "works of Torah" refers to any sort of ritual, which is to impose your anti-ritual, anti-sacramental Baptist paradigm upon Paul. Paul is certainly not anti-ritual. For instance, Paul emphatically speaks of how we are incorporated into the Paschal Mystery of Jesus Christ in our baptism (Romans 6). Paul is adament in demonstrating to the Judaizers that one is not justified by Torah but by faith, the "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26). This is a faith that presupposes and incorporates baptism, not a faith that is somehow to be pinned against baptism.

The entire concept of being born anothen ("from above" or "again") comes from John 3, which must be interpreted in its original context.

Jesus Himself is baptized in John 1:31-34.

When Jesus is baptized, the heavens are opened and the Holy Spirit descends upon Him in the form of a dove. Jesus didn’t need to be baptized. In fact, St. John the Baptist exclaimed that he needed to be baptized by Christ. (Matthew 3:14)

The Lord was baptized to show us the way of salvation (Luke 1:77), the way the heavens are opened to us, and the way Holy Spirit descends upon us.

In John 3:22, immediately after Christ’s "born again" discourse to Nicodemus, what does He do?

He and His disciples go out into the countryside and begin to baptize. Also, in John 4:1-2, His disciples alone are seen baptizing. The Lord most likely baptized His disciples although this cant be proven, it is indeed inferred from the text, and then they went out and baptized the multitudes.

Here’s the events in sequence:

1. Christ is baptized,

2. He gives the "how to be born again" discourse,

3. He baptizes the disciples and commissions them to go out and baptize.

4. The disciples of Christ are seen baptizing.

Clearly, in view of the context of these passages, Christ’s words in John 3 mean that water baptism is the way one is born again.

Also, the earliest extra-Biblical early Church witnesses to Scriptural interpretation interpret spiritual regeneration as occurring at our baptism by virtue of our baptism.

St. Justin Martyr was born a pagan but converted to Christianity after studying philosophy. He was a prolific writer and many Church scholars consider him the greatest apologist or defender of the faith from the 2nd century. He was beheaded with six of his companions some time between 163 and 167 A.D.

He wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

St. Irenaeus succeeded St. Pothinus to become the second bishop of Lyons in 177 A.D. Earlier in his life he studied under St. Polycarp. Considered, one of the greatest theologians of the 2nd century, St. Irenaeus is best known for refuting the Gnostic heresies.

He wrote, "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" (Fragment 34 [A.D. 190]).

I also refer you to this letter, written by a Catholic who was once an atheist before he was born again in a Baptist church and subsequently converted to Catholicism after examining the arguments:

http://www.catholicoutlook.com/glenn1.html

 

Carson -

Are you insinuating that Galatians is strictly an historical document with no relevance to the modern believer? I do not think that there is any realm of Christianity today that preaches ceremonial circumcision as necessary for salvation, though, I may be mistaken.

The Judaizers were not teaching the "whole Law." They were teaching circumcision. It is Paul who said that if they wished to seek justification through circumcision, then they were required to keep the whole Law. The Law was not (to steal your own terminology) a cafeteria style system.

Paul's contention was that justification through faith is of the Spirit, attempted self-justification through works is of the flesh. Those who received by faith the Promise made to Abraham in Genesis 15 were the Spiritual heirs; those who sought justification through circumcision as in Genesis 17 were the physical heirs, but spiritually speaking were the true Ismaelites. Hence the repeated contrast of spirit and flesh throughout the Epistle.

[ July 05, 2003, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Carson, thanks for your post and the link. Very eye-opening. Much to consider.

 

This argument is the basis for the slaughter of millions of "baptists" by the Papists and their "evangelism by the Sword."

The argument of Paul in Galatians regarding the "works of the Law" is specificalloy referring to circumcision. The Replacement Theology of Augustine replaced infant circumcision (and Circumcision Regeneration of the Judaizers) with infant baptism (and baptismal regeneration of the Covenant Theology of Augustine)and the nation of Israel with the Church (to him Romanism) as a theonomic institution.

To make salvation to be through any kind of ritual is to deny the finished work of the Cross and is a blaspheme against the Saviour (Heb. 10:10,12, 14 and 18; 10:29). Take care my friend. If you convince yourself to have won this argument in your own mind, you may lose your soul.

We are not choosing up sides for a touch football game here. This is serious business!!!

[edited to remove solicitation. Please see rule #6 of our posting rules: http://www.baptistboard.com/postingrules.html ]

[ July 05, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Hi Clint,

You asked, "Are you insinuating that Galatians is strictly an historical document with no relevance to the modern believer?

Of course not. And, on the other hand, I'm not a Fundamentalist who reads Scripture outside of its historical context, thus misunderstanding the author's intentions and applying Scripture in a way that is divorced from its literal-historical meaning.

Galatians is entirely relevant for Jewish and Gentile Christians today. For instance, when confronted by those who would have us return to the Mosaic Law as our badge of membership in the covenant family of God (see Galatians 5), we have this Scripture, which instructs us to hold fast to faith as our badge of membership in the covenant family. We are covenanted members who live by faith in the living Son of God, not by adhering to the precepts of Torah, which are unable to give life.

We are instructed that the only thing that avails is "faith working through love" (5:6); we are told that the law is fulfilled by loving our neighbor as ourself (5:14); we are told that those who commit "works of the flesh" will "not inherit the kingdom of God" (5:19-21); we are told what are the fruits of the Spirit (5:22)... and on and on.


I do not think that there is any realm of Christianity today that preaches ceremonial circumcision as necessary for salvation, though, I may be mistaken.

Praise the Lord!

Paul's contention was that justification through faith is of the Spirit, attempted self-justification through works is of the flesh.

You see, Clint - by divorcing Paul from his thesis (that works of Torah do not give life, but rather, put us under a curse) and re-gluing him to the supposed idea that Paul is anti-ritual, you automatically set yourself up to misinterpret Paul when he refers, time and time again, to how we are incorporated into the New Covenant through baptism.

 

Hi Dr. Ketchum,

I hope that you considered the import of my response to you above; you didn't seem to incorporate it into your most recent post.

You wrote, "The Replacement Theology of Augustine replaced infant circumcision (and Circumcision Regeneration of the Judaizers) with infant baptism"

The Judaizers didn't hold to any sort of regeneration. This is an anachronistic error on your part. Circumcision was seen as the means of incorporation into the covenant by the Judaizers - not as a means to being "born anothen".

Augustine didn't invent infant baptism. Where do you get these a-historical ideas?

I'll give you just one example from the liturgical instruction of Hippolytus:

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

If you read my post (and I'm still debating myself as to whether you did), you saw that I quoted two second century figures who explicitly taught what the whole realm of Catholicism taught and practiced in their day: baptismal regeneration.

 

Paul was specifically addressing Judaistic practices (namely circumcision and perhaps dietary Law as evidenced in Galatians 2:11-14) but he also equates the Law with paganism in 4:8-10, saying that both are of the world. The principles of this Letter, though historic, are far more encompassing than confronting the threat of Judaism. It is an assault on legalism of any kind.

Once someone begins to believe and teach that Grace is accomplished by faith plus something or faith minus something, they are a legalist. They are attatching a sign to the empty Cross that says, "Not Quite Enough."

Galatians 5:6

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (ESV)

It was not circumcision in and of itself that was the heresy; it was the belief that one needed to add ceremonial acts to faith to attain salvation. Man is utterly helpless and hopeless in his efforts to attain such. Nothing short of an Act of God could bring a man to the state of worthiness required to stand before God. The only chance that man had was responding with faith to the Call of the Spirit. Galatians 3:3