Salvation

Justified Saint and Carson are correct. </font>[/QUOTE]All of you will justify your position; agree with your cohorts; but avoid answering those simple questions. Why?
DHK

 

I swear pearls are disappearing here somewhere...

 

DHK says:

Speaking of context lets look at the full context of the verse you noted;

That is Romans 8:1-17

Life Through the Spirit 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[1] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[2] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[3] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[4] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[5] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[6] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[7] And by him we cry, "Abba,[8] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


How do we share in His glory? And in reference to Pauls letter to the Collosians how do we fill up what was lacking in Christ's affliction? Does not the scripture say that we share in his glory if indeed we also share in his sufferings. And is this sharing in Christ's suffering not filling what is lacking, afterall it can't be something Christ neglected to accomplish. It can only be something we would lack.

Thanks, God Bless Goodnight for now.

 

DHK:

Your premise is faulty. We have the hope of eternal life. Our Hope is Jesus Christ and all His promises. 1 Tim 1:1 We are given the gift of grace, the life of God within us. If we endure to the end, then we will have eternal life forever with God.

“…and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint , because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Romans 5:4-5

Hope does not disappoint …..if we are faithful and endure to the end. We have God dwelling with us. He tells us that if we deny Him, he will deny us. We are also told we deny Christ by serious sin. We can throw our inheritance away. God however is faithful to His promises.

 

And if a person who firmly beleives he has been saved and even OSAS, and would for years show righteousness, only to later seriously falter. Then was this person not actually saved all along? Eventhough he thought he was.

Does the scripture about knowing them by their fruit apply? If so what's the time limit.
And then are the good works or whatever the "righteousness" produces really just a sign to the beleivers that this person is saved? Is that really what all the fuss is about, these proof-works?

While we all agree noone can work their way to salvation, and the RCC doesn't teach that we can, what then is the proper correlation between works and faith in regard to salvation? And if someone would answer these questions in regard to the following scripture:</font>[/QUOTE]First of all, we don't ALL agree "no one can work their way to Heaven." This is the exact teaching of the Catholic Church--salvation by works. They won't come and say it, but that is what they teach. Baptism is a work. You must be saved by baptism. Sacraments are all works. Salvation is through the sacraments. Salvation is through doing, and doing, and doing. Salvation is through works, according to the Catholic Church. It is not of grace. It is not of faith. Grace and works are mutually exclusive. "Examine yourselves to see whether ye be in the faith."

Rom.11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
If it is by grace it is not of works. Choose ye this day which will it be: grace or works. So far the Catholic church has consistently chosen works as has been demonstrated on this board. Baptism is a work. Salvation is accomplished through works, contrarty to what the Bible teaches. I prefer to believe the Bible over the Catholic Church. That is precisely why I left it.

Paul never said that there was anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ did he? Again you take Scripture out of context. He said "I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard..." He was speaking of his own sufferings for Christ. He himself set an example for the church to follow. He said, "Be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ." But that didn't refer to salvation, it referred to the Chrisian walk. Isn't it interesting that Paul never stressed baptism. He said for "Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel." He further said, "I thank God that I have baptized none of you." Salvation (faith in the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ) was important to Paul, not baptism. Baptism was simply a work of man.
DHK

 

Sorry DHK, but once again we see a complete disregard and twisting of scripture on your end.

Galatians 5:1 "For freedom Christ set us free; so STAND FIRM and DO NOT SUBMIT AGAIN TO THE YOKE OF SLAVERY"

The ones who have been circumcised have nothing, they are trying to use the law to justify and they have no hope. However, those "by faith, we await the hope of righteousness."

"For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? But if we HOPE for what we do not see, we WAIT with ENDURANCE." Romans 8:24-25
You don't have hope because your hope sees for itself.

Titus 3:7 proves that we are heirs in the hope of eternal life, that means we don't actually have eternal life now but we are HEIRS of it, not by OUR deeds. This is talking about initial salvation.
"In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installement of our inheritance toward redemption as God's possesion, to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13-14

James is talking about the crown of life, the crown of eternal life that is rendered to each one who remains in the faith. Oh, so this reward is only for those who keep the faith? So people get into heaven without keeping the faith?

John's letter is about knowing we are saved because we can know our salvation through OBEDIENCE. The theme is quite clear throught all his writings.

"If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love." John 15:10

"Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned." John 15:6

"So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth." Revelation 3:16

"Remember then how you accepted and heard; KEEP IT, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you." Revelation 3:3

Another fallacy, Hebrews 6 talks earlier about those who produce thorns and thistles and they will be rejected and burned. However, the author is confident that his audience won't be because they have produced fruit and have lived faithfully. So, the Christian life is optional right? Heck, the gift of heaven, it can't get any better than that, I don't need an extra prizes on the side.

Your argument is filled with leaps of logic and a distortion of scripture.

 

A complete and deliberate misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine.

 

Following Jesus is not a requisite for Salvation. Many followed Jesus everywhere he went, even when He crossed the great lake. But they are not saved because they lost their faith in Jesus. FAITH IS THE ONLY REQUISITE FOR SALVATION!

My comment on your youth is not derisive in the least. It comes from one who has been where you are, understanding that you will get to where he is! Unless you die in route, you too will become old. You too will have years of bible study, You too will have experiences, maybe even to the extent that Job had experiences that shake your faith to its very foundation. You too will gain knowledge by which the Holy Scriptures take on meanings that you cannot yet grasp due to your youth.

I rather think I complemented you by calling you a "young saint in training". There is nothing derisive in that, I am not ridiculing you . Whereas I, and some others here, are in the soon to graduate class, you are in the just starting out class. It is not possible for you to know or understand that which the elders know and understand because your knowledge and experience level is not what ours is. You have not been beaten down or become down drodden, etc. You are young virile full of stamina.

Does that mean that you are not to be heard from or to participate with the elders? Not in the least! But your understanding of scripture and scriptural principles cannot be as mature as the elders. God has given you an understanding that is appropriate for your station in life and no one can deny you because of what God has not yet given you.

 

We can only share in his sufferings and thus fulfill in our lives that which was lacking (in our Christian lives) by living the sacrificial lives that Christ expects us to live. Tell me:
Have you kept the commands of Christ? Here are some of them
.
Luke 9:23-27
23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his
--deny yourself. Say no to whatever your flesh would want, your carnal desires. Say yes to the Spirit of God, and no to self.
--Take up your cross daily. What is a cross for? They put Christ to death on a cross, along with two thieves. It is an instrument of death. Put yourself to death every day. Paul said "I die daily (1Cor.15:31). Every day I put this body to death. I say NO to myself, and yes to Christ. What does Christ want me to do? That is the question; not, What do I want ME to do?

cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
--If you will save your life you will certainly lose it. What are you saving your life for? Money, fame, fortune, materialism, the world, your family, the things of this world, What is in your heart? What do you have your heart set on? What are you saving your life for? If it is anything but for the cause of living for Christ, you will lose your life, perhaps for all eternity.

If you lose your life you shall save it. If you lose your life--lose it in selfless love for the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will save it in eternity. Lose yourself in Christ. Put yourself at His disposal. Whatever he wants you to do, do it. Submit to Him totally.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
--Is it worth it? Is the world of that much value to you. Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt for turning her eyes back to the world. She had her heart set on things of this world, the luxury that she used to live in. She was judged for the worldliness that was simply in her heart. What is in your heart? If a man should gain the whole world and yet lose his own sould, what shall he profit??

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.
--Jesus is coming again. Will you be ashamed at his coming? What have you done to prepare for his coming? By the life that you live will He be ashamed of you?

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
--There is no turning back for a true disciple.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
--How is your relation to your family?
If your love for Christ is not so great that your love for your family will seem as hate in comparison you are not worthy to be a disciple; you are not worthy to follow Christt.

Are you following the commands of Christ. These are but some of them. Start following these and you will start living a Godly life. Paul said: "Yea all who live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. When you start suffering persecution for the cause of Christ, you are just beginning to share in his sufferings.

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

(Phil 3:10 KJV) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
This was Paul's testimony throughout his Christian life. It had nothing to do with his salvation.
DHK


DHK

 

"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."
You "wrest the Scriptures to your own damnation."
I could go through all those Scriptures once again and show you once again how you have perverted them once again, but I feel that once again, it would be to no avail. I am still awaiting your answers to my original questions.

 

DHK:

I answered your questions.
You then say:

All the Catholics here would agree “no on can work their way to Heaven.” We believe in salvation by Grace, not by faith alone. DHK, do you believe Noah saved himself and family from death in the flood by building that Ark? It might look that way, the way you are talking.

You quote Scripture here and say: "Examine yourselves to see whether ye be in the faith."

I examine myself daily (necessity for ongoing conversion) and find that the Spirit of Christ dwells within me. I am a temple of the Holy Spirit and recognize that I have been saved, am being saved, and hope to be saved by enduring to the end. This hope is Jesus Christ.

Are you a temple of the Holy Spirit? Is Jesus Christ dwelling in you? Are you in the state of Grace? Is Christ’s life within you?

“ Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?” 2 Corinthians 13:5

You might want to ask yourself these questions, rather then limiting your examination of conscience to your interpretation of what you think you should believe about your faith. According to the full quotation you use, it all comes down to whether Christ and the Holy Spirit dwell within you. Test yourself.

God Bless

 

Yelsew - the implication in that particular verse is that the ones who are following Jesus are the ones who are living by faith, they live as he lives. In other words, the ones who live by faith will have salvation because they are living as Jesus lived.

What I find amusing about this is that we are in quite a bit of agreement on salvation yet you continue to argue and misconstrue my words to say something they don't. Your anti-Catholic bias has preceded you.

What is derisive is that you dismissed my entire post saying "oh well you are too young to understand." Yeah, that was your argument.

DHK - I have no conviction to answer any of your questions until my questions are answered first. It looks like Kathryn answered your questions, why don't you address her answers?

 

Sorry you took "young saint in training, you have a lot to learn" as "oh well you are too young to understand." To me those phrases do not have any commonality between them! I am convinced that your youth presents a serious detrimental affect on your understanding as I explained earlier. I did not however make any meaning like you took.

 

I am not concerned with age here but rather logic. You didn't address any of my post, you dismissed it all with a single sentence. So, I ask why would my buddy Yelsew do that? We see that you are speaking in the same tone as you allude "Like I said earlier". Your tone is dismissive not complimentary.

 

Onlookers would throw us all into one pot, stir us up and determine that the soup
is ruined. I was hoping to see some clarification from all these knowledgeable heads
involved that represent many years of bible reading, learning and praying to God for
clarification. Many accuse others here of unwarranted self - interpretation of the bible.
Still......those who make that accusation are leaning on the determinations
that have been made by writers from prior to 500AD. And, they still have
that denominational reliance, because they would not accept alternate views
from that era in time. So, it still boils down to self interpretation. Basic truths
are undeniably agreed upon by all 1) There is a God 2) There is a bible that
is inspired by God 3) Our flesh all dies 4) Eternal life is a reality.

But given the splits in determinations beyond that point, it is nothing less than
frustrating and disenchanting to know that we cannot even agree upon the
meaning of the words believe, is, was, faith, receive, know, are, am, God,
heaven, have, inherit etc.

My unchurched and unbaptized status makes more sense to me all the time.

 

My unchurched and unbaptized status makes more sense to me all the time.

I encourage you to read the Acts of the Apostles and compare your unchurched and unbaptized status with the Christians spoken of throughout St. Luke's portrayal of early Christianity.

 

Can one lose eternal life? No. However, one in the physical realm and body does not have eternal life, but lives in the ultimate expectation of the home in heaven. Peter, by inspiration states in I Pet. 1:3  ¶Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4  To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6  ¶Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7  That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8  Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Paul writing to the church at Corinth in I Cor. 15:50-57, Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51  ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The eternal crown of life is inherited at the conclusuion of one's termporal physical existence. Paul writes in II Tim. 4:6-8, For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

May we continue to look for that blessed hope of Christ. Titus 3:13. 13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; and our home with him in heaven. The Bible says in Phil. 3;20,21, For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.


Who will at that blessed day give the faithful their inheritance, as Jesus will say to them," Well done thou good and faithful servant thou hast been faithful over a few things I will make thee a ruler over many enter thou in to the joy of thy Lord." Mat.25:23.

 

I've said what I said. I'm sorry you misinterpret what I said, now deal with it!

 

I encourage you to read the Acts of the Apostles and compare your
unchurched and unbaptized status with the Christians spoken of throughout
St. Luke's portrayal of early Christianity.

I have been encouraged by a multitude of opposing viewpoints and
yet I have to conclude for myself what is right between my spirit and God's
spirit. Aren't we all doing that anyway ? We each make choices involving our
Christianity.